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Wikileaks

Post  Guest on Mon 26 Jul - 13:07

Wikileaks article on BBC lunchtime news right now. They have published 92 000 documents on Afghanistan and have held a further 15 000 back.

The founder of the website is apparently in hiding, for fear of his life.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Guest on Mon 26 Jul - 13:12

The Famous Grouse wrote:Wikileaks article on BBC lunchtime news right now. They have published 92 000 documents on Afghanistan and have held a further 15 000 back.

The founder of the website is apparently in hiding, for fear of his life.

given that this has gone public in a big way, his demise would be seen as say, suspicious, however it occured.


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Re: Wikileaks

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 26 Jul - 13:21










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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Wallflower on Mon 26 Jul - 13:57

People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

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as above

Post  halfamo on Mon 26 Jul - 14:12

The founder has conducted a rather long question and answer session covered by Sky news, i am completely unmoved by the claims by UK and US goverments claiming this is damaging , no its letting the great unwashed know whats being done in their name.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Panda on Mon 26 Jul - 17:04


With all due respect there is not a Country in the World that doesn"t resort to torture and shoot innocent people,
the Geneva Convention goes by the board when Countries are at War. The tragedy is that the U.S. and U.K
invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for no valid reason, so many innocent people were killed and made homeless by the bombing of their Countries, The infrastructure of all Countries at War is in ruins and absolutely nothing has been achieved. An American Friend sent me only yesterday a video of a huge march of people carrying Israeli
flags with the slogan "Iceland supports Israel".

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 26 Jul - 17:22

Panda wrote:
With all due respect there is not a Country in the World that doesn"t resort to torture and shoot innocent people,
the Geneva Convention goes by the board when Countries are at War. The tragedy is that the U.S. and U.K
invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for no valid reason, so many innocent people were killed and made homeless by the bombing of their Countries, The infrastructure of all Countries at War is in ruins and absolutely nothing has been achieved. An American Friend sent me only yesterday a video of a huge march of people carrying Israeli
flags with the slogan "Iceland supports Israel".

I agree Panda, and according to this book, "Against Our Will: Men, women and Rape," by Susan Brownmiller, most conquering armies see women of the enemy as part of the spoils of war and the Allied Troops going into Germany at the end of WWII were no better than any other army.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  pennylane on Mon 26 Jul - 17:49

Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 26 Jul - 17:56

pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  pennylane on Mon 26 Jul - 18:00

AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

No Anna. What is it about?

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Wallflower on Mon 26 Jul - 18:00

Article in full. I really think it's worth reading.

Chilcot inquiry: Iraq expert Carne Ross claims civil servants are withholding vital documentsBritain's 'deep state' of secretive bureaucrats is denying witnesses to the Chilcot inquiry crucial files

Carne Ross
The Observer, Sunday 25 July 2010 Article history

Carne Ross, the UK’s Iraq expert at the UN from 1997-2002, says all the invasion documents should now be made public. Photograph: Sarah Lee for the Guardian

I testified last week to the Chilcot inquiry. My experience demonstrates an emerging and dangerous problem with the process. This is not so much a problem with Sir John Chilcot and his panel, but rather with the government bureaucracy – Britain's own "deep state" – that is covering up its mistakes and denying access to critical documents.

There is only one solution to this problem, and it requires decisive action.

After I was invited to testify, I was contacted by the Foreign Office, from which I had resigned after giving testimony to the Butler inquiry in 2004, to offer its support for my appearance. I asked for access to all the documents I had worked on as Britain's Iraq "expert" at the UN Security Council, including intelligence assessments, records of discussions with the US, and the long paper trail on the WMD dossier.

Large files were sent to me to peruse at the UK mission to the UN. However, long hours spent reviewing the files revealed that most of the key documents I had asked for were not there.

In my testimony I had planned to detail how the UK government failed to consider, let alone implement, available alternatives to military action. To support this I had asked for specific records relating to the UK's failure to deal with the so-called Syrian pipeline, through which Iraq illegally exported oil, thereby sustaining the Saddam regime. I was told that specific documents, such as the records of prime minister Tony Blair's visit to Syria, could not be found. This is simply not plausible.

I had also asked for all the Joint Intelligence Committee assessments on Iraq, some of which I helped prepare. Of dozens of these documents, only three were provided to me – 40 minutes before I was due to appear before the Chilcot panel.

Playing by the rules, I had submitted my written testimony to Chilcot before my appearance. In the hours before my appearance, invited to visit the Foreign Office to see further documents (mostly irrelevant), an official repeatedly sought to persuade me to delete references to certain documents in my testimony.

He told me that the Cabinet Office wanted the removal of a critical reference in my evidence to a memo from a senior Foreign Office official to the foreign secretary's special adviser, in which the official pointed out, with mandarin understatement, that the paper sent that week to the Parliamentary Labour Party dramatically – and inaccurately – altered the UK's assessment of Iraq's nuclear threat.

In a clear example of the exaggeration of Iraq's military capabilities, that paper claimed that if Iraq's programmes remained unchecked, it could develop a nuclear device within five years.

The official's memo pointed out that this was not, in fact, the UK assessment: the UK believed that Iraq's nuclear programme had been checked by sanctions.

The paper to the PLP was instead sent by the foreign secretary to "brief" the wider cabinet. This paper was pure overstated propaganda, filled with ludicrous statements like "one teaspoon of anthrax can kill a million people". The paper was soon made public, as part of the campaign to create public hysteria.

The official's memo about the PLP paper contained nothing secret. It relates to a public document, the PLP paper. Yet, of all the references in my testimony, this was the one that the Cabinet Office most wanted removed. I refused. Strikingly, this memo has never been mentioned to the inquiry, including by its author, who testified earlier this year. Neither has the author of the PLP paper been questioned, or the paper itself discussed.

I was repeatedly warned by inquiry staff not to mention any classified material during my testimony. The only problem is that almost every document I ever wrote or read in my work was classified. It was made clear to me, and to journalists attending the hearing, that if I mentioned specific documents the broadcast of my testimony would be cut off. Other forms of retribution (Official Secrets Act prosecution?) hung in the air. It was a form of subtle intimidation.

Meanwhile, my requests to see documents about the infamous Number 10 WMD dossier were ignored, including requests for letters I had written.

This experience and the inquiry's record so far is cause for concern. It is clear from testimonies so far that most witnesses, most of whom went along with the war at the time, are offering a very one-sided account to the panel. A story is being peddled that sanctions on Iraq were collapsing and the allied policy of containment was failing. Thus, the military alternative to deal with the Iraqi threat was more or less unavoidable.

Though there is some truth to this argument, it was not what the Foreign Office, or the government as a whole, believed at the time. The true story is there to be seen in the documents. In memos, submissions to ministers and telegrams, the official view is very clear: while there was concern at the erosion of sanctions, containment had prevented Iraq from rearmament.

When invasion was promoted by Washington, the available alternative – to squeeze Saddam financially by stopping oil exports or seizing the regime's assets, which I and some colleagues had repeatedlyadvocated, was ignored. Here the documents tell a different but equally clear and appalling story: there is not a single mention of any formal discussion, by ministers or officials, of alternatives to military action. It is hard to pinpoint a graver indictment of the government's failure.

The oral testimonies delivered to the inquiry have not given an accurate picture of what the government really thought. Unfortunately, the panel is neither equipped, nor apparently inclined, to challenge witnesses on the contradictions of their testimonies with this documentary record. This may not be the panel's fault: how can they know which pertinent documents exist?

In these circumstances, it is very worrying that the government machine is still trying to withhold key documents, and silence those of us with detailed knowledge of the policy history – and documents. I have been told too, from secondary sources, that members of the panel have been refused documents they have specifically requested.

There is a clear solution to these problems: break down the continued obstruction by the bureaucracy by releasing the documents – all of them. Only the most secret documents deserve continued protection, and there are very few of these. The vast majority of relevant documents relate to policy discussion inside the government before the war. Though profoundly embarrassing, there is little here that damages national security, except in the hysterical assessment of officials protecting their own reputation. Nick Clegg said a few weeks ago that almost all documents must now be released. He is right.


Carne Ross was the UK's Iraq expert at the UN from 1997 to 2002. He now heads Independent Diplomat, a non-profit diplomatic advisory group.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Wallflower on Mon 26 Jul - 18:03

AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

That may be. But aren't all of these institutions just basically clubs for the richer countries of the world to get their own way in everything?

However, my point was not to big up the UN, but rather this individual man, who has, you must admit acted very bravely.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  pennylane on Mon 26 Jul - 18:08

How many Annans does it take to change a light bulb? Well, if the replacement light bulb's being shipped to Uday Hussein's Iraqi Olympic Committee recreational basement as part of the UN Oil-for-Food programme, there's no telling how many Annans you'll need.

-----------------

The actual head of the Oil-for-Food racket, Kofi sidekick Benon Sevan, has resigned, having hitherto insisted that a mysterious six-figure sum in his bank account was a gift from his elderly aunt, a lady of modest means who lived in a two-room flat back in Cyprus. Paul Volcker's investigators had planned to confirm with auntie her nephew's version of events, but unfortunately she fell down an elevator shaft and died. It now seems likely that the windfall had less to do with Mr Sevan's late aunt and more to do with his soliciting of oil allocations for another company.

------------------------

Taken from this article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3619082/United-in-greed-divided-it-falls.html

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Panda on Mon 26 Jul - 18:08

I read recently there are 30 Wars going on at this moment around the World, maybe for all the achievements
of the Human Race, basically nothing has changed since the Stone Age.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 26 Jul - 18:11

pennylane wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

No Anna. What is it about?

http://www.drudgereport.com/

It's basically political and mostly about US politics, but includes a good range of international news. A few examples from today:

DC STORMS: Hundreds of thousands are without electricity; Water restrictions for 1.8M... U.S. Denounces Publication of Classified Documents on War in Afghanistan...

White House: 'Irresponsible'...

PENTAGON SAYS DOCUMENTS APPEAR TO BE AT 'SECRET' NOT 'TOP SECRET' LEVEL OF CLASSIFICATION...

VIDEO: Wikileaks' founder explain logs...

Hacker ethos... Dam fails in eastern Iowa, causing massive flooding... Britain Plans to Decentralize National Health Care...

Most basic treatments to be rationed...


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Re: Wikileaks

Post  pennylane on Mon 26 Jul - 18:15

Wallflower wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

That may be. But aren't all of these institutions just basically clubs for the richer countries of the world to get their own way in everything?

However, my point was not to big up the UN, but rather this individual man, who has, you must admit acted very bravely.

I do understand your point Wallflower, maybe he is one of the good ones? But that is a big question mark. It was the United Nations shouting that there were no mass graves in Bosnia I recall.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  margaret on Mon 26 Jul - 18:18

Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

This Government or the previous one? Tony Bliar (deliberate typo) and his awful wife are vile and l would put absolutely nothing past him even the death of Dr.David Kelly - well someone had to sanction that.

Him and that tw*t Bush wanted their place in history so they created a phoney war the rest is history - for all the wrong reasons.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  pennylane on Mon 26 Jul - 18:20

AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

No Anna. What is it about?

http://www.drudgereport.com/

It's basically political and mostly about US politics, but includes a good range of international news. A few examples from today:

DC STORMS: Hundreds of thousands are without electricity; Water restrictions for 1.8M... U.S. Denounces Publication of Classified Documents on War in Afghanistan...

White House: 'Irresponsible'...

PENTAGON SAYS DOCUMENTS APPEAR TO BE AT 'SECRET' NOT 'TOP SECRET' LEVEL OF CLASSIFICATION...

VIDEO: Wikileaks' founder explain logs...

Hacker ethos... Dam fails in eastern Iowa, causing massive flooding... Britain Plans to Decentralize National Health Care...

Most basic treatments to be rationed...


Thank you Anna, very interesting indeed. I have bookmarked it.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  pennylane on Mon 26 Jul - 18:23

margaret wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

This Government or the previous one? Tony Bliar (deliberate typo) and his awful wife are vile and l would put absolutely nothing past him even the death of Dr.David Kelly - well someone had to sanction that.

Him and that tw*t Bush wanted their place in history so they created a phoney war the rest is history - for all the wrong reasons.

Kelly's murder could have come from within the United Nations itself. They are all as bad as each other!

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 26 Jul - 18:23

pennylane wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

No Anna. What is it about?

http://www.drudgereport.com/

It's basically political and mostly about US politics, but includes a good range of international news. A few examples from today:

DC STORMS: Hundreds of thousands are without electricity; Water restrictions for 1.8M... U.S. Denounces Publication of Classified Documents on War in Afghanistan...

White House: 'Irresponsible'...

PENTAGON SAYS DOCUMENTS APPEAR TO BE AT 'SECRET' NOT 'TOP SECRET' LEVEL OF CLASSIFICATION...

VIDEO: Wikileaks' founder explain logs...

Hacker ethos... Dam fails in eastern Iowa, causing massive flooding... Britain Plans to Decentralize National Health Care...

Most basic treatments to be rationed...


Thank you Anna, very interesting indeed. I have bookmarked it.

I like Drudge.

And then, of course, there's Alex Jones!

http://www.infowars.com/

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  pennylane on Mon 26 Jul - 18:29

That looks really interesting too Anna, thank you very much

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Wallflower on Tue 27 Jul - 14:00

margaret wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

This Government or the previous one? Tony Bliar (deliberate typo) and his awful wife are vile and l would put absolutely nothing past him even the death of Dr.David Kelly - well someone had to sanction that.

Him and that tw*t Bush wanted their place in history so they created a phoney war the rest is history - for all the wrong reasons.

The Chilcott enquiry is still going on NOW http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/ and that's what Carne Ross was talking about.

Britain and America have got to be two of the most hypocritical nations on earth, frankly.


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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Wallflower on Tue 27 Jul - 14:02

pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Wallflower wrote:People should also read up on Carne Ross' (I think that's his name) article from Saturday's Guardian. He's the former British Ambassador to the UN - talking about how the govt is whitewashing the Iraq enquiries and trying to intimidate people and surpressing documentation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=28177


The UN is corrupt to the core imho.

Imho also.

World Net Daily is a good source for information. Do you also read The Drudge Report?

That may be. But aren't all of these institutions just basically clubs for the richer countries of the world to get their own way in everything?

However, my point was not to big up the UN, but rather this individual man, who has, you must admit acted very bravely.

I do understand your point Wallflower, maybe he is one of the good ones? But that is a big question mark. It was the United Nations shouting that there were no mass graves in Bosnia I recall.

I imagine that there are a lot of people who join these institutions with the best of intentions, because they want to do good.

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Re: Wikileaks

Post  Guest on Wed 28 Jul - 0:52

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