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Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

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Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  malena stool on Sat 16 Oct - 12:05

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/ABANDONED-TOT-WANDERING-CITY-STREET/article-2766291-detail/article.htm

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  T4two on Sat 16 Oct - 12:26

Judge De Bertodano said she was suspending the jail term because the offence happened 18 months ago and the delay in sentencing was not of Merry's making.

So that's all right then?

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  fred on Sat 16 Oct - 12:37

So a child from Leicestershire is found wandering round Leicester and the man get's a suspeneded sentence? A child from Leicestershire is lost maybe wandered off round the streets of PDL and the parents are feted and made into celebs?
What a funny old world be live in!!

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  ShabbyTiger on Sat 16 Oct - 12:39

malena stool wrote:http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/ABANDONED-TOT-WANDERING-CITY-STREET/article-2766291-detail/article.htm

Not accepting comments, I see!

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  fred on Sat 16 Oct - 12:40

ShabbyTiger wrote:
malena stool wrote:http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/ABANDONED-TOT-WANDERING-CITY-STREET/article-2766291-detail/article.htm

Not accepting comments, I see!

can't imagine why not?

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  MaryB on Sat 16 Oct - 12:43

Are we to expect the multi million pound fund, the celebrity party, the meeting with the Pope, the employment of a spin doctor, appearance on Oprah. I expect not. At least that child has not been harmed. But oh we are told there is no evidence Madeleine has been harmed. So that's alright then. Isn't it.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  Guest on Sat 16 Oct - 12:46

ShabbyTiger wrote:
malena stool wrote:http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/ABANDONED-TOT-WANDERING-CITY-STREET/article-2766291-detail/article.htm

Not accepting comments, I see!

Quelle surprise.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  malena stool on Sat 16 Oct - 12:48

T4two wrote:
Judge De Bertodano said she was suspending the jail term because the offence happened 18 months ago and the delay in sentencing was not of Merry's making.

So that's all right then?
It would seem so T4two, perhaps this is to do with the sad overcrowding in the Uk jail system with those wicked offenders who have recycled incorrectly or are unable to pay their council tax because they don't fit the criteria to receive social assistance.

The judge in all her sagacity and innate wisdom allowed for the terrible stress and trauma already inflicted on this poor man while waiting for his case to be heard, and it was a purely accidental abandonment. An offence no doubt committed by possibly everyone in the UK at one time or another.

Comments on the Leicester Mercury ShabbyTiger? Oh nooooooooo that would never do.


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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  Dimsie on Sat 16 Oct - 19:14

But at least this man was charged and convicted, even though his sentence was suspended. He deserves it, but I'm rather surprised that some of the people charged with child abandonment don't mention the Madeleine case in their own defence. It's not as though the McCanns didn't admit to leaving the children in an unlocked apartment, nor was it unknown that they considered it a possibility - and probably a good idea - that if Madeleine woke up she could leave the apartment and go looking for them. This is clear from FP's rogatory statement -

Reply
“She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying ‘Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or’, erm, ‘or locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up’, because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh”.

1485
“So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?”

Reply
“Yeah”.

1485
“Did she say whether she had locked or?”

Reply
“No, that was the point, I think they said they’d left it, well she’d said she’d left it unlocked”.


The intention here is clear, transparently so, so why was this overlooked when considering whether this was a case of child abandonment? Why were the McCanns treated so differently from other people who did something equally reckless?

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  flower on Sat 16 Oct - 19:24

When I saw the title of this thread - I did wonder if it was one of the Twins!!!

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  margaret on Sat 16 Oct - 20:44

fred wrote:So a child from Leicestershire is found wandering round Leicester and the man get's a suspeneded sentence? A child from Leicestershire is lost maybe wandered off round the streets of PDL and the parents are feted and made into celebs?
What a funny old world be live in!!

Leicesters obviously the place to live if you're child neglector!

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  jinvta on Sat 16 Oct - 21:47

Dimsie wrote:But at least this man was charged and convicted, even though his sentence was suspended. He deserves it, but I'm rather surprised that some of the people charged with child abandonment don't mention the Madeleine case in their own defence. It's not as though the McCanns didn't admit to leaving the children in an unlocked apartment, nor was it unknown that they considered it a possibility - and probably a good idea - that if Madeleine woke up she could leave the apartment and go looking for them. This is clear from FP's rogatory statement -

Reply
“She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying ‘Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or’, erm, ‘or locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up’, because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh”.

1485
“So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?”

Reply
“Yeah”.

1485
“Did she say whether she had locked or?”

Reply
“No, that was the point, I think they said they’d left it, well she’d said she’d left it unlocked”.


The intention here is clear, transparently so, so why was this overlooked when considering whether this was a case of child abandonment? Why were the McCanns treated so differently from other people who did something equally reckless?

Dimsie,

I have often wondered the same thing. Parents are being prosecuted, and rightfully so, for neglecting or abandoning their children every day. Why don't these parents use the "McCann" defense, that it was well within the bounds of responsible parenting to leave said children alone? It seems ironic that the parents whose children have suffered no physical harm are punished more harshly than the McCanns. Perhaps it is that feeling that they have suffered enough, I don't know.

Personally, I feel the punishment should fit the crime, and the result of that crime should be used to determine the severity of the punishment. If a child dies due to a parent's neglect, then maximum punishment should be given. Next would be if a child disappears due to neglect and/or suffers physical harm, a lesser degree of punishment should be given, but still a harsh punishment. If the child suffers no harm, then the punishment should be even less. I would certainly be complaining if I were this father and my livelihood was being threatened by the sentence (perhaps he lost his job) and the McCanns are living the high life. I would be screaming "But at least my kid is still alive, and I'm the one out of work!"

The McCanns have so far evaded prosecution, which for the life of me, I can't understand. I suppose it has to do with the PJ not being able to prosecute for neglect leading to harm and then come back for a homicide later on if evidence comes forward. I still don't see why the McCanns aren't prosecuted for neglect in the UK, however, and why Gerry is not determined to be unfit for practice.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  flower on Sat 16 Oct - 22:12

jinvta wrote:
Dimsie wrote:But at least this man was charged and convicted, even though his sentence was suspended. He deserves it, but I'm rather surprised that some of the people charged with child abandonment don't mention the Madeleine case in their own defence. It's not as though the McCanns didn't admit to leaving the children in an unlocked apartment, nor was it unknown that they considered it a possibility - and probably a good idea - that if Madeleine woke up she could leave the apartment and go looking for them. This is clear from FP's rogatory statement -

Reply
“She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying ‘Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or’, erm, ‘or locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up’, because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh”.

1485
“So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?”

Reply
“Yeah”.

1485
“Did she say whether she had locked or?”

Reply
“No, that was the point, I think they said they’d left it, well she’d said she’d left it unlocked”.


The intention here is clear, transparently so, so why was this overlooked when considering whether this was a case of child abandonment? Why were the McCanns treated so differently from other people who did something equally reckless?

Dimsie,

I have often wondered the same thing. Parents are being prosecuted, and rightfully so, for neglecting or abandoning their children every day. Why don't these parents use the "McCann" defense, that it was well within the bounds of responsible parenting to leave said children alone? It seems ironic that the parents whose children have suffered no physical harm are punished more harshly than the McCanns. Perhaps it is that feeling that they have suffered enough, I don't know.

Personally, I feel the punishment should fit the crime, and the result of that crime should be used to determine the severity of the punishment. If a child dies due to a parent's neglect, then maximum punishment should be given. Next would be if a child disappears due to neglect and/or suffers physical harm, a lesser degree of punishment should be given, but still a harsh punishment. If the child suffers no harm, then the punishment should be even less. I would certainly be complaining if I were this father and my livelihood was being threatened by the sentence (perhaps he lost his job) and the McCanns are living the high life. I would be screaming "But at least my kid is still alive, and I'm the one out of work!"

The McCanns have so far evaded prosecution, which for the life of me, I can't understand. I suppose it has to do with the PJ not being able to prosecute for neglect leading to harm and then come back for a homicide later on if evidence comes forward. I still don't see why the McCanns aren't prosecuted for neglect in the UK, however, and why Gerry is not determined to be unfit for practice.

I agree entirely - How on earth can you go on holiday with three children and come back with two - and then become heroes of child safety?? It is totally beyond me................... and with no punishment.. WHY??

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  Guest on Sat 16 Oct - 22:16

I wonder how many patients have refused to be treated by Doctor Gerry. Do you think that LHT would have to release that figure under a FOI request? Because personally I wouldn't trust him with a tin of sticking plasters.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  flower on Sat 16 Oct - 22:20

The Famous Grouse wrote:I wonder how many patients have refused to be treated by Doctor Gerry. Do you think that LHT would have to release that figure under a FOI request? Because personally I wouldn't trust him with a tin of sticking plasters.

TFG - I think that is a question that would never be answered....... and at the end of the day....... I wonder how many of his patients even know the half of what we know........................

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  malena stool on Sat 16 Oct - 22:57

flower wrote:
The Famous Grouse wrote:I wonder how many patients have refused to be treated by Doctor Gerry. Do you think that LHT would have to release that figure under a FOI request? Because personally I wouldn't trust him with a tin of sticking plasters.

TFG - I think that is a question that would never be answered....... and at the end of the day....... I wonder how many of his patients even know the half of what we know........................

In all probability most of them wouldn't care, whatever they know of his parenting skills or his personality disorder. Just as long as he prescribes appropriate and successful treatment either for themselves or their loved ones they will tolerate him as their consultant.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  flower on Sat 16 Oct - 23:20

malena stool wrote:
flower wrote:
The Famous Grouse wrote:I wonder how many patients have refused to be treated by Doctor Gerry. Do you think that LHT would have to release that figure under a FOI request? Because personally I wouldn't trust him with a tin of sticking plasters.

TFG - I think that is a question that would never be answered....... and at the end of the day....... I wonder how many of his patients even know the half of what we know........................

In all probability most of them wouldn't care, whatever they know of his parenting skills or his personality disorder. Just as long as he prescribes appropriate and successful treatment either for themselves or their loved ones they will tolerate him as their consultant.

I have to agree with that - at the end of the day if you were under his consultancy -you would go with what he said..............

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  Dimsie on Sat 16 Oct - 23:52

I'm inclined to agree - no one has AFAIK ever questioned his skill as a doctor and I daresay that's all his patients care about.

Going back to the how come other people are charged with child abandonment but the McCanns weren't, I know it's been said in various newspapers that it was probably considered they'd suffered enough, that no punishment could ever come near the heartbreak of losing their daughter (by abduction, I mean, for those that believe this is what happened), that this is a case where mercy should be shown. But even if I believed Madeleine had been abducted I'd still want the law to be applied equally. The time for mercy, if it's going to be shown, should be at sentencing, not when deciding whether or not to bring charges. It would have been perfectly possible to bring charges in this case IMO, but if they were found guilty of child abandonment THEN it would have been up to the judge to decide whether or not to show mercy. He/she would have had various options in deciding what to do; it wouldn't have had to be a case of off to jail or whatever.

Surely the legal principle of equality before the law is sacrosanct and takes precedence over all other considerations? If not, then why should anyone respect the law at all? I've never seen anyone address this question with regard to this case; it's always the 'suffered enough' twaddle that makes a nonsense of the whole legal process.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  malena stool on Sun 17 Oct - 8:50

Dimsie wrote:I'm inclined to agree - no one has AFAIK ever questioned his skill as a doctor and I daresay that's all his patients care about.

Going back to the how come other people are charged with child abandonment but the McCanns weren't, I know it's been said in various newspapers that it was probably considered they'd suffered enough, that no punishment could ever come near the heartbreak of losing their daughter (by abduction, I mean, for those that believe this is what happened), that this is a case where mercy should be shown. But even if I believed Madeleine had been abducted I'd still want the law to be applied equally. The time for mercy, if it's going to be shown, should be at sentencing, not when deciding whether or not to bring charges. It would have been perfectly possible to bring charges in this case IMO, but if they were found guilty of child abandonment THEN it would have been up to the judge to decide whether or not to show mercy. He/she would have had various options in deciding what to do; it wouldn't have had to be a case of off to jail or whatever.

Surely the legal principle of equality before the law is sacrosanct and takes precedence over all other considerations? If not, then why should anyone respect the law at all? I've never seen anyone address this question with regard to this case; it's always the 'suffered enough' twaddle that makes a nonsense of the whole legal process.

Exactly Dimsie, that they still walk unchallenged is an affront to the law of the land. So much so that all who have previously or since been charged with and found guilty of child abuse on flimsier evidence or found guilty solely on forensic evidence for any crime should be, in my opinion anyway, entitled to challenge the outcome of the trial and sentence.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  Guest on Sun 17 Oct - 10:05

You may be correct in the case of Mister Gerry. But I remember somebody on the old 3As (I forget who it was) that actually did have him for a consultant, and there was a huge debate as to whether they should be treated by him, or demand a different consultant and so on. Unfortunately the old 3As closed down before we ever did get to learn the outcome of that little dilemma. What has always disturbed me in a big way was Mrs Kate practicing as a GP. In that capacity she would have had to make recommendation reports to Social Services about the fitness of some of her patients to look after their own children. Would you honestly trust her to get that right if she thinks that leaving three toddlers alone is "within the bounds of reasonable parenting"? Or conversely, how many children has she had removed from their parents, for less than she was responsible for herself? The GMC should be looking at all of this. One thing, she'll never practice as a GP again. I wouldn't trust her to look after a gerbil.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  malena stool on Sun 17 Oct - 11:17

The Famous Grouse wrote:You may be correct in the case of Mister Gerry. But I remember somebody on the old 3As (I forget who it was) that actually did have him for a consultant, and there was a huge debate as to whether they should be treated by him, or demand a different consultant and so on. Unfortunately the old 3As closed down before we ever did get to learn the outcome of that little dilemma. What has always disturbed me in a big way was Mrs Kate practicing as a GP. In that capacity she would have had to make recommendation reports to Social Services about the fitness of some of her patients to look after their own children. Would you honestly trust her to get that right if she thinks that leaving three toddlers alone is "within the bounds of reasonable parenting"? Or conversely, how many children has she had removed from their parents, for less than she was responsible for herself? The GMC should be looking at all of this. One thing, she'll never practice as a GP again. I wouldn't trust her to look after a gerbil.

Grouse, I also vaguely remember someone who had Gerry as a consultant on 3As, or it may have been one of his/her relatives I can't really remember. You are of course right, and I wouldn't be surprised if the GMC had not already compiled a case against the pair of them and their Tapas buddies. But for some reason, one which we may never be made aware of, they have been given carte blanche to continue on their merry way to practice (in the case of Gerry) as if they had no responsibility for, or made any contribution whatsoever towards Madeleine's absence from the family home.

As an ex Gerbil keeper from many years back I applaud your concern for our rodent friends.......

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  Dimsie on Sun 17 Oct - 11:52

The Famous Grouse wrote:You may be correct in the case of Mister Gerry. But I remember somebody on the old 3As (I forget who it was) that actually did have him for a consultant, and there was a huge debate as to whether they should be treated by him, or demand a different consultant and so on. Unfortunately the old 3As closed down before we ever did get to learn the outcome of that little dilemma. What has always disturbed me in a big way was Mrs Kate practicing as a GP. In that capacity she would have had to make recommendation reports to Social Services about the fitness of some of her patients to look after their own children. Would you honestly trust her to get that right if she thinks that leaving three toddlers alone is "within the bounds of reasonable parenting"? Or conversely, how many children has she had removed from their parents, for less than she was responsible for herself? The GMC should be looking at all of this. One thing, she'll never practice as a GP again. I wouldn't trust her to look after a gerbil.
Yes, a GP is in a very different role from that of a consultant; she would be expected to make judgments about the welfare and safety of children, as well as dealing with strictly medical matters, and as such needs to be - IMO at least - of unblemished record where her own children are concerned. I think Kate realised this from very early on and that's why there was never any talk (or none that I can remember) about her going back to work as a GP. The irony though of her supposedly considering a career in child welfare seems to be lost on her and her supporters - did she ever really think people would forget her and her husband's recklessness with their own children's safety?

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  Angelique on Mon 18 Oct - 15:15

The General Medical Council investigates Medical Practitioners and Consultants - they usually err on the side of the Doctors. They profess to take complaints very seriously but have in the past given GP's an awfully long rope before taking action.

Angelique


Last edited by Angelique on Mon 18 Oct - 15:16; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  jinvta on Mon 18 Oct - 15:46

So, the GMC is a self-regulating body. Doctors are looked at by their peers to determine if they are fit for practice. No wonder, the GMC always errs on the side of the doctor. I have heard that there have been some attempts to try to get this function to not be self-regulated, but I am not in the UK.

IMO, it would be very easy to prove that Gerry McCann is unfit for practice. Not only did they leave the children alone at night for several nights in a row in a foreign county, just like the other Tapas 7, but they left the doors unlocked. None of the other tapas members did this, so obviously they at least had sound enough judgment to lock the doors and secure their children, just as they would anything of material value. None of the other members managed to lose a child.

It comes down to judgment. If the McCanns are confident that what they did was reasonable, then could anyone possibly trust their judgment on any other matters, particularly one's health? I certainly would not. They took a huge risk in leaving their children unsecured for extended periods of time, this is not the type of activity that you would expect from a professional making decisions regarding your health.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

Post  malena stool on Mon 18 Oct - 18:33

Doctors are judged by their peers under the fair assumption that lay people are not qualified to understand the reasoning behind deciding on a diagnosis or prognosis from symptoms observed or investigations ordered leading to the prescription of medication or a particular course of treatment.

In my opinion the actions the McCanns displayed in showing scanty respect for their children by abandoning them on a regular basis at night do not in any way place them in a position where lay people are unable to judge them by virtue of any specialist knowledge.

Maintaining a child’s safety is something that all parents whether they are rich and titled or a single parent existing on welfare benefits have a duty to perform.

A Consultant in Medicine and a GP should be more aware of the dangers to young children left alone at night and lead by example, in failing Madeleine they have also failed their profession and the respect their chosen profession once held. For this alone the GMC is failing in its responsibilities to its members and the British public by not exerting the real power it commands and suspending both parents awaiting a review of their actions.

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Re: Toddler left wandering in a Leicester Street Leicester Mercury 16 Oct 2010

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