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Post  jeanie on Sun 22 May - 5:55

golf links

•The Estrela da Luz apartments in Praia da Luz: Goncalo Amaral, the man in charge of the McCann investigation claimed in an edition of the Sunday Express in 2010 that the crucial CCTV footage at the Estrela da Luz was wiped in the days subsequent to Madeleine's disappearance.

Readers may recall that key Madeleine witness, Martin Smith and his family were staying at the Estrela da Luz complex on the night of May 3rd 2007. It was the Smiths who provided the now famous account of a man seen carrying a child in a Police statement given some weeks later.

Martin Smith and his son Peter are from Drogheda in the Republic of Ireland (a sea port roughly the size of Bridlington in North Yorkshire, about 30 miles north of Dublin).

Irishman Gerry Fagan, who co-owns the Estrela da Luz with his English business partner, Simon Burgess (as part of the hugely sucessful Oceanico golf holiday franchise) is also from Drogheda.

Burgess - like the McCann's sponsor Brian Kennedy - is a successful businessman based in Cheshire. They lived within miles of each other.

According to his son Peter, Martin Smith visits Portugal at least three times every year, staying at an apartment he owns within the Estrela da Luz complex. Interestingly Peter, who was due to return to Ireland on the 4th May ahead of his father, says he only heard of the child's disappearance at the airport on the Friday morning. He says he was told by an acquaintance of the family - the son of the builder of Estrela da Luz who was also leaving that day ('filho do construtor da Estrela da Luz, que também se encontrava no aeroporto' - ps 7675, File VI). It is a detail that is left out of the translation provided by Ines on the gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk website.

Put another way: the son of the key witness and the son of the man who built the Estrela da Luz holiday complex were both together at the airport on the morning of May 4th, flying home to Ireland.
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Re: golf links

Post  Panda on Sun 22 May - 6:36



I believe in the Statement given in Ireland to the Guarda, Mr Smith"s Wife declined to make a second Statement and his Son said the Man carrying the child was about 30-35 yrs old. It has always bothered me that Mr Smith saw Gerry carrying Sean from the Aircraft with his head resting on Gerry"s
shoulder and remembered that was how the man he saw in PDL was carrying the Child. This after a 4 month delay since he had seen the Man in PDL?
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Re: golf links

Post  widowan on Mon 23 May - 2:50

if they still have the tapes maybe SY or the FBI could find what was on them before wiped, if they weren't recorded over ...

what is the connection here, Smith came up much later saying he thought it was Gerry - when he saw him on tv in Sept - and I don't know what happened after that except Kennedy went to visit them with his goons from M3 or Control Risk or whoever it was and he seems to not have been heard from again except that now Gerry raises him as a second sighting of the abductor - totally different looking person than what Jane had seen, and 30 minutes later but only a few blocks away. Why would you assume someone carrying a child home after dinner time in a resort that had a dinner club, would be so odd? Is it because no one has ever come forth to say, that was me?

hard to believe someone who lived there or was there May 3rd hasn't heard of this case and called to say "it was I" - so they are either the abductor, or Gerry...or just staying silent to not be involved which would really be selfish of them. Although the way these parents finger everyone as a suspect, I am not sure I would call either and volunteer this.

I think a suspect would get a more intense grilling than the parents will allow to be done on themselves, as they can simply stand on their right to silence (as anyone can but few innocent parents would).

Edgar has no remit to interview anyone who doesn't volunteer to discuss things with him. Why are they always saying he's going to go out and he's keen to interview these people? Just as hewlett did, people would tell him to f* off. They act like Edgar is some kind of legitimate investigation when he's a private guy with no badge and no remit.
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Re: golf links

Post  Panda on Mon 23 May - 5:09

widowan wrote:if they still have the tapes maybe SY or the FBI could find what was on them before wiped, if they weren't recorded over ...

what is the connection here, Smith came up much later saying he thought it was Gerry - when he saw him on tv in Sept - and I don't know what happened after that except Kennedy went to visit them with his goons from M3 or Control Risk or whoever it was and he seems to not have been heard from again except that now Gerry raises him as a second sighting of the abductor - totally different looking person than what Jane had seen, and 30 minutes later but only a few blocks away. Why would you assume someone carrying a child home after dinner time in a resort that had a dinner club, would be so odd? Is it because no one has ever come forth to say, that was me?

hard to believe someone who lived there or was there May 3rd hasn't heard of this case and called to say "it was I" - so they are either the abductor, or Gerry...or just staying silent to not be involved which would really be selfish of them. Although the way these parents finger everyone as a suspect, I am not sure I would call either and volunteer this.

I think a suspect would get a more intense grilling than the parents will allow to be done on themselves, as they can simply stand on their right to silence (as anyone can but few innocent parents would).

Edgar has no remit to interview anyone who doesn't volunteer to discuss things with him. Why are they always saying he's going to go out and he's keen to interview these people? Just as hewlett did, people would tell him to f* off. They act like Edgar is some kind of legitimate investigation when he's a private guy with no badge and no remit.


Edgar has been non existent since the fiasco of a Witness coming forward after 2 years to say he was at a stag do in Barcelona and saw a woman
acting strangely, the famous lookalike "Posh Spice". Since then we have had the Hewlett letter to his Son telling him who had abducted Madeleine, and
the conviction that madeleine is somewhere within about 10 kilometres from PDL, or something like that. A constant waste of money by choosing
inept Investigators yet the Mccanns had access to people in High Places who could have recommended a bona fide Agency with a good record.
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Re: golf links

Post  Angelique on Tue 24 May - 0:35

Panda wrote:

Edgar has been non existent since the fiasco of a Witness coming forward after 2 years to say he was at a stag do in Barcelona and saw a woman
acting strangely, the famous lookalike "Posh Spice". Since then we have had the Hewlett letter to his Son telling him who had abducted Madeleine, and
the conviction that madeleine is somewhere within about 10 kilometres from PDL, or something like that. A constant waste of money by choosing
inept Investigators yet the Mccanns had access to people in High Places who could have recommended a bona fide Agency with a good record.[/quote]

Yes I agree - but they didn't want bona fide Agency Detectives because they would come up with zilch - there were no sightings to follow. They wanted to use the Fund for other purposes and spend the time playing "pretendy detectives" for statements to the press. In all probability there is no Madeleine to find now anyway.
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Re: golf links

Post  widowan on Tue 24 May - 0:50

This is what I am wondering, if when SY looks here they will see nothing real as to an investigation, just a bunch of high level connections they tried to work, and some patsy like M3 or Edgar being put into place so Clarrie would have something to get into the papers.

Those guys did not seem to spend much time in PDL and I wonder how much time they spent working with CEOPS or other to make sure Maddie's image or god forbid herself, was out there for sale somehow. Just these silly "tips" - all not only fake but highly implausible and stupid - and he doesn't follow up.

When they see this large amount of money going back and forth into these funds and this sham of a pretence of a search will theythink the real crime we can find here is fraud, money laundering, etc and then from that, figure that these people would hve something to hide or why would they do this at all, why wouldn't they take the money and use their connections to hire real, top detectives just as they hired top lawyers for themselves.

They were all about trying to rise above their station and be mingling with the Pope and the Prime Minister and the best selling author and the top football player etc. Top lawyers and using arcane loopholes in international extradition law and stuff, very little down in the weeds looking. They were sort of seemingly pumping themselves and their story up and Madeleine didn't get much, even now they won't display her age progression photo or the reward, like they don't really want this to END.
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Re: golf links

Post  Angelique on Tue 24 May - 1:00

widowan

Do you really think the SY are going to actually do the real thing - re-investigate.

I don't - I think what I have always thought that they are being protected and it will last for as long as their protection unit think or deem it necessary to go. That the case is finally closed and with NO FURTHER ACTION stamped on it in big red letters. I also think that regardless of the fact that Gerry and Kate are obviously taking the heat and it's making Kate evidently stressed - they have no choice. JMO.
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Re: golf links

Post  Panda on Tue 24 May - 1:32



I think before an investigation is underway in Portugal, the Fund should be investigated , you know the old saying "follow the money". This would take
place in Britain before any travel expenses to Portugal and would tell us much. My guess would be that when some people are charged with Fraud, the whole story of Madeleine"s disappeaerance would emerge, saving the Taxpayer a lot of money.
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Re: golf links

Post  Angelique on Tue 24 May - 1:48

Panda

I think if it would help towards the uncovering of who is behind this "unresolved crime" then yes I agree - if it is possible that The Fund is investigated and is shown to have been fraudulent it would be good. But I doubt if it will ever get off the ground.

If what has and is happening regarding the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine is anything to go by, it will be dropped like a hot brick.

I live in hope
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Re: golf links

Post  Panda on Tue 24 May - 1:57

Angelique wrote: Panda

I think if it would help towards the uncovering of who is behind this "unresolved crime" then yes I agree - if it is possible that The Fund is investigated and is shown to have been fraudulent it would be good. But I doubt if it will ever get off the ground.

If what has and is happening regarding the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine is anything to go by, it will be dropped like a hot brick.

I live in hope

We are going to have a situation where the Fund is wound up because there is no money left , an investigation costing millions and taking years, a
situation where as each year passes, if Madeleine were alive ,she would not remember her Family it"s a bizarre situation .
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Re: golf links

Post  widowan on Tue 24 May - 14:17

There would be a reason to hide Diana's death if it were a murder or this doctor who supposedly killed himself - there was a huge thing at stake, what is at stake here for McCanns to get protection or help? How much real HELP have they gotten? they got the PR help from Brian Kennedy for whatever reason, I would imagine any multi millionaire has connections and they worked this PR story. But they above all have moaned bitterly about the lack of help from the government. This grant may be to shut them up once and for all if not bang them up. Cameron isn't in a position to state I want them cleared once and for all - he would like that possibly but don't tell me if they are seen by Sy to have killed, or hidden the body of, maddie, that he would find it politically expeditious to sweep it under the rug. That will cause an uproar, as PM you want to be the helper and supporter of the family but not the helper of child killers, especially if there's a pedophile angle, my God.

Brown did "help" them with his interest but I think he'd have believed they were innocent, believed the story we were all told and whether or not he actually personally requested Amaral off the case or asked if he was still running things - who knows. That was a rumor. There is a political reason or was at that time to want this case to go away, this is not the way the UK nor PT want to be seen in the media when they are in the midst of much bigger things.

I think Panda's idea of following the money is key- it is one thing they have nevermentioned not even Clarrie in his latest "we want a full investigation of the witness statements and forensics from the beginning" said "and we think the Fund should be gone into as well to see how the money allegedly for a search, was actually spent."
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Re: golf links

Post  weary on Tue 24 May - 22:22

My completely uninformed guess is that SY has already done considerable digging into the fund and that detectives have already spent many a happy hour looking into the doings of Kevin Hallagan and the money laundering he engaged in.

If they look into that and think "The McCanns hired him specifically BECAUSE he laundered money, and oh, lookie thar, this is where the McCanns have that money stashed offshore!" then the whole house of cards will fall apart. Perhaps this is naive, but it's what I'm hoping. "Follow the money" seems so obvious here, once it's clear they've hired more than one sleazy company with no experience in finding children and thrown money at them. Nobody, not even Gerry McCann, is so stupid that he'd hire such inexperienced companies repeatedly if he really wanted to find her; therefore, he didn't want to find her. Well, then, what happened to her? SY, like all police, wants to make the strongest case they can, and if they can rack up evidence of crime after crime, why settle for just charging them with fraud?

This review seems to have been in the works for awhile, rather than something Cameron cooked up overnight because the McCanns asked for it; things just don't happen that quickly in government. And it isn't the review the McCanns asked for, either--they aren't going to be informed about the investigation's progress, and they've got no excuse to try to raise more money. All that makes me think this isn't at all what the McCanns intended.

If SY has already been looking into fraud and they've informed Cameron of it, then they all may collectively feel pretty sure that evidence of further crimes is going to arise. And if that's the result of the investigation--SY charges the McCann with one or more serious crimes--then Cameron can hold up his hands in shock, saying "I had no idea that this would be the results, but if the McCanns have defrauded the British people with their 'Find Madeleine' fund, and if they're involved in what happened to her, well, I think that the British people have a right to know about it!" And he scores.
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Re: golf links

Post  widowan on Tue 24 May - 22:48

I agree Cameron is in a good position regardless what NSY finds, they are either exonerating innocent people, yay Britain, or banging up bad people, again, yay, you were right, and wasn't gordo stupid to the extreme.Cameron only looks bad if it's a white wash and he's seen to be covering it over.

They've said the investigation will be thorough and the scope is being defined. Scope that doesnt include the Fund would be pitiful...
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Re: golf links

Post  Panda on Wed 25 May - 0:20

[quote="weary"]My completely uninformed guess is that SY has already done considerable digging into the fund and that detectives have already spent many a happy hour looking into the doings of Kevin Hallagan and the money laundering he engaged in.

If they look into that and think "The McCanns hired him specifically BECAUSE he laundered money, and oh, lookie thar, this is where the McCanns have that money stashed offshore!" then the whole house of cards will fall apart. Perhaps this is naive, but it's what I'm hoping. "Follow the money" seems so obvious here, once it's clear they've hired more than one sleazy company with no experience in finding children and thrown money at them. Nobody, not even Gerry McCann, is so stupid that he'd hire such inexperienced companies repeatedly if he really wanted to find her; therefore, he didn't want to find her. Well, then, what happened to her? SY, like all police, wants to make the strongest case they can, and if they can rack up evidence of crime after crime, why settle for just charging them with fraud?

This review seems to have been in the works for awhile, rather than something Cameron cooked up overnight because the McCanns asked for it; things just don't happen that quickly in government. And it isn't the review the McCanns asked for, either--they aren't going to be informed about the investigation's progress, and they've got no excuse to try to raise more money. All that makes me think this isn't at all what the McCanns intended.



If SY has already been looking into fraud and they've informed Cameron of it, then they all may collectively feel pretty sure that evidence of further crimes is going to arise. And if that's the result of the investigation--SY charges the McCann with one or more serious crimes--then Cameron can hold up his hands in shock, saying "I had no idea that this would be the results, but if the McCanns have defrauded the British people with their 'Find Madeleine' fund, and if they're involved in what happened to her, well, I think that the British people have a right to know about it!" And he scores.[/quote

Hi Weary,

If the Fund were being investigated it would have been done long before now. Metodo 3, the first Detectives employed by the Fund said they never
received th sums quoted in the British Press. One of the original Directors, Esther McVey announced on T.V. that the Fund would not be used for Legal Fees yet everyone knows that is what is happening. Halligen is languishing in a British Jail awaiting extradition for Fraud and Money Laundering, the
Fund paid him £300,000 without even checking his credentials. If the Fund were being investigated there would have been a few arrests and the McCanns complicit , In which case any investigation would not be needed since it might only have needed to concentrate on the Tapas 9 to get at the truth.
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Re: golf links

Post  widowan on Wed 25 May - 17:16

Again, there's that scope definition.

McCanns will hide behind their lawyers and if this isn't transparent - the SY investigation - and it's just a matter of "we used the Fund as it was set up, we did nothing wrong, except that we may have miscommmunicated a little about how much of it would be used for the search, or how we define the search, lawyers to get libel claims to go into the fund is a legitimate use of the money as it all goes to the search in the end, detectives and Clarence are, the web site, the wrist bands, etc -- all legit uses of the Fund as are lawyers to keep us out of jail because we're innocent" - we won't know about it, and they won't be in trouble.

Even the pathetic lack of follow thru by M3 and Edgar and the lack of due diligence can be innocently explained - remember they were NAIVE. THat word was bandied about constantly, they were ripped off out of naivete, by M3 - now they were going to get the Big Boys. Well, naive too they accepted his word, look at him - he's a criminal!

However if they can be shown to have laundered money, that is a crime and I think they will be charged.
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Re: golf links

Post  Panda on Wed 25 May - 17:42

widowan wrote:Again, there's that scope definition.

McCanns will hide behind their lawyers and if this isn't transparent - the SY investigation - and it's just a matter of "we used the Fund as it was set up, we did nothing wrong, except that we may have miscommmunicated a little about how much of it would be used for the search, or how we define the search, lawyers to get libel claims to go into the fund is a legitimate use of the money as it all goes to the search in the end, detectives and Clarence are, the web site, the wrist bands, etc -- all legit uses of the Fund as are lawyers to keep us out of jail because we're innocent" - we won't know about it, and they won't be in trouble.

Even the pathetic lack of follow thru by M3 and Edgar and the lack of due diligence can be innocently explained - remember they were NAIVE. THat word was bandied about constantly, they were ripped off out of naivete, by M3 - now they were going to get the Big Boys. Well, naive too they accepted his word, look at him - he's a criminal!

However if they can be shown to have laundered money, that is a crime and I think they will be charged.

Hi Widowan,

when the fund was set up, there was a clause stating the Fund could be used to help the Family, good thinking wouldn"t you say??????
The McCanns, while still in Portugal used the Fund to pay 2 months mortgage payments totalling £4,000, but Esther McVey, one of the Directors
queried this and the McCanns said they would return the money. John McCann , Gerry "s Brother until recently sanctioned Legal Fees when the McCanns
sued the Daily Express and when the McCanns won £550,000 they said all the money was going into the Fund. The Fund was supposed to be managed
in accordance with Good Governance Rules for Charities but never has been and to make the McCanns Directors was totally out of order. why do they
need a PR Guy now? Why are they still paying David Edgar when he hasn"t come up with any new leads for over a year? Why have they got their own
Lawyer when they have two Portugese Lawyers and Carter Ruck? John McCann also sanctioned money from the Fund to help pay the McCanns Legal Fees in their suit against Amaral. he has resigned now and it might be because something is afoot, or he and Doug Skehan got fed up with the way the
McCanns have taken over.
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Re: golf links

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