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Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Angelique on Sun 29 May - 13:15

It was announced by Theresa May Home Secretary:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386509/Madeleine-McCann-British-detectives-launch-bid-end-McCanns-torment.html

Scotland Yard joined the hunt for Madeleine McCann last night after her parents begged David Cameron for help.
Kate and Gerry McCann made an anguished personal plea to the Prime Minister to intervene, warning: 'We are at the end of our tether.'
Within hours of their desperate appeal, Home Secretary Theresa May announced that Scotland Yard would help Portuguese police review key evidence about Madeleine's disappearance, aged three, from an Algarve resort in 2007.
The McCanns believe potentially vital clues were missed in the botched Portuguese investigation, which was formally shelved in 2008. The Portuguese have been reluctant to reopen the failed inquiry into Madeleine’s disappearance but they have now agreed that the Met should lead a review of the evidence.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386509/Madeleine-McCann-British-detectives-launch-bid-end-McCanns-torment.html#ixzz1Nk83KQq7


Last edited by Angelique on Sun 29 May - 13:22; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  marxman on Sun 29 May - 13:19

Has this review kicked off yet? If not when do you think it will? surely it needs the full cooperation of the PJ?

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  kitti on Sun 29 May - 13:19

That 'botched' investigation included the met in the first place!

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  kitti on Sun 29 May - 13:23

What it actually means is......David Cameron has asked Theresa may to look Into what more they can do and she will be in touch with the mccanns regarding this.


Someone put the actual letter from Cameron on here please.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Angelique on Sun 29 May - 13:26

Looking for image if I can find it.

p://mccannexposure.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/madeleine-mccann-david-camerons-letter-in-full/


Madeleine McCann: David Cameron’s letter in full

13
MAY
Dear Kate and Gerry,

Thank you for your heartfelt and moving letter. Your ordeal is every parent’s worst nightmare and my heart goes out to you both. I simply cannot imagine the pain you must have experienced over these four agonising years, and the strength and determination you have both shown throughout is remarkable.

I am acutely aware of the frustration you must feel as more time goes by and yet no news is forthcoming. We discussed this when we met, but I realise that a further eighteen months have gone by since then. That you have been so courageous over all this time, and have not given up, speaks volumes.

I have asked the Home Secretary to look into what more the Government could do to help Madeleine. She will be writing to you today, setting out new action involving the Metropolitan Police Service which we hope will help boost efforts in the search for Madeleine. I sincerely hope this fresh approach will provide the investigation with the new momentum that it needs.

I know that everyone hopes and prays for a successful outcome, and our thoughts remain with you and your family. We will, of course, stay in close touch with you throughout.

Yours,

David

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  kitti on Sun 29 May - 13:28

Blueeyes wrote:
kitti wrote:I would like to know WHERE in camerons letter he says he will be reviewing or reopening the case...he hasnt.


It jut says he will look into it and speak to the met.....that's it.




This is taken from the letter

I have asked the Home Secretary to look into what more the Government could do to help Madeleine. She will be writing to you today, setting out new action involving the Metropolitan Police Service which we hope will help boost efforts in the search for Madeleine. I sincerely hope this fresh approach will provide the investigation with the new momentum that it needs.


Have we all , including the media, taken that to mean a review?



I think so, blue eyes , don't you.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Guest on Sun 29 May - 13:49

Has that letter been [cleverly]worded as such that any one of us can interpret it[ read into it ]as we choose ?



Last edited by Blueeyes on Sun 29 May - 13:54; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : deleting a double post)

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Angelique on Sun 29 May - 14:23



But it's the letter to the Met. Police that matters - we don't know the exact wording of that letter all we have is what the Met say they received.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13378289

Met Police 'bring expertise' to Madeleine McCann search

Kate and Gerry McCann had appealed to David Cameron to launch an independent review
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories

Madeleine McCann inquiry timeline
Kate McCann reveals fears
McCanns urge PM to launch review
The Metropolitan Police are to "bring their expertise" to the search for Madeleine McCann, the Home Office says.

Madeleine went missing aged three on holiday in Portugal in May 2007, and David Cameron has agreed to ask for a review of the case.

Met Police Authority member Lord Harris said Mr Cameron's intervention damaged the independence of the police.

But Downing Street and Scotland Yard have both denied the government ordered the force to investigate.

Scotland Yard said Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson had "received a request, which he considered, and took the decision that on balance it was the right thing to do".

A Downing Street spokesman said Mr Cameron and Home Secretary Theresa May asked the Met to review the evidence after a new plea by parents Kate and Gerry McCann from Leicestershire.

He said the case was "exceptional" and that the prime minister "has been clear that he wants to do everything he can to support the family".

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Lillyofthevalley on Sun 29 May - 14:40

wjk wrote:
Panda wrote:
wjk wrote:What would the reaction of the 'ordinary' Portuguese people be, if the PJ say they are willing to back this review of the case? The people who know how much time and money and effort went into this from the off? Would there be uproar or would the people say get on with it then!

For starters there will be more work for SY than the PJ, they are the ones who have to trawl through the files in Portugal and Spain. Get translations
and more if the PJ said O.K. lets open up the Shelved files and close the case........I hope they do, because not just for the expense the PJ have incurred ,but the abuse from the British Press and contempt of the McCanns and their Family and Friends. the past interference from the Government . Let it all
come out the Taxpayer should demand nothing less

this is what I'm hoping for, Panda. Not because I think the PJ did not do their job properly, but for the money spent by the Portuguese, the man hours spent, with officers away from families for days on end, not to mention the abuse etc!
Theres already £3.5 million on the table for this review, lets use it to its full and go back to the very beginning. Infact, I hope the Met Leave no stone unturned!!

I'm of the opinion that the PJ have got all scores to settle with the UK Police, but more importantly their good name has been badly damaged by our previous Governments interference in this case, I'm sure if the PJ were prepared to work alongside SY they would find new evidence.
The way the McCanns have been very vocal of late proves they will not shut up, now or in the near future, at times they are happy to argue with their own shadows. I dont think Cameron is prepared to protect them, he has had the whole country listen to the McCanns calling our Government and informing us all that they are not happy with Ms May and her fluffly words, he had no choice but to do something to stop this, they were getting totally out of control imo.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Panda on Sun 29 May - 14:47


I think it was The end is Nigh who said the U.K. Government have recently bought Portugese Bonds so that should be the sweetener.

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as above

Post  halfamo on Sun 29 May - 15:12

Angelique wrote:
Panda wrote:Sources recall that, despite them having good criminal investigation labs, a political decision was made to have the tests carried out in English labs.

The source said:

“We let the English do everything that they want.”

I remember reading that the Portugese forensics was not considered as advanced as FSS and since the DNA evidence was so fragile it was decided to
use FSS. However , the FSS report was not conclusive and in fact they apparently destroyed the samples because the Portugese did not ask for their
return.!!!!!!

another report stated that FSS was very slow and the Portugese Police did a little experiment. they sent a sample to FSS and a few days later another
sample to their own forensic Dep. The Report on the Portugese Sample was finished and sent to the Police in two weeks, FSS took almost two
months........no wonder the Service has been sold to America.

Hi Panda

I think this proves just exactly what some of us have thought for a long time - there was someone deliberately contaminating evidence - it makes me want to retch to think that some "Member" is inside the FSS trying to obstruct an investigation into the disappearance of a little child. It's disgusting.

Was'nt it low copy DNA which once tested is destroyed not deliberately but because it is such poor quality that testing destroys it , thats my understanding .

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Angelique on Sun 29 May - 15:24

halfamo

I know absolutely nothing about forensics - I only know that the PJ were given a Report that proved conclusively that the test carried proved to be a 100% match to Madeleine. I think it was two weeks later they had a visit from FSS saying totally the opposite. (I have also read that it could have been interference from Brown) - I will search for the info - may take some time I've read a lot of reports lately.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  cass on Sun 29 May - 15:24

halfamo yes i think it is the low coopy dna that if you retest and retest deemed as useless , well think that is what i have read , but tbh regarding this dna and samples , there are always new things happening , but i dont know if the pj have any left to test ? i know on the old 3as there was talk about other samples going to spain or somewhere ? but 15 markers out of 18 was suposed to be enough to convict outside portugal ? is that true anyone know

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Panda on Sun 29 May - 15:29



I remember Stuart Prior ranting that the first test indicated 15 of the 19 Alleles matched which was enough to make a charge in Britain.

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as above

Post  halfamo on Sun 29 May - 15:31

cass wrote:halfamo yes i think it is the low coopy dna that if you retest and retest deemed as useless , well think that is what i have read , but tbh regarding this dna and samples , there are always new things happening , but i dont know if the pj have any left to test ? i know on the old 3as there was talk about other samples going to spain or somewhere ? but 15 markers out of 18 was suposed to be enough to convict outside portugal ? is that true anyone know

Angelique & cass i know nothing about forensics but remember it being reported that it was low copy DNA and retesting it destroys it so if they did retest it would be useless yes cass i think the high marker did refer to Portugal and the 15 markers would have been accepted in a English court.

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as above

Post  halfamo on Sun 29 May - 15:33

Panda wrote:

I remember Stuart Prior ranting that the first test indicated 15 of the 19 Alleles matched which was enough to make a charge in Britain.

yes Panda i think thats right it was Portugal which does'nt except the 15 markers in a English court it would have been ok.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Guest on Sun 29 May - 15:39

Panda wrote:
I think it was The end is Nigh who said the U.K. Government have recently bought Portugese Bonds so that should be the sweetener.

Yes, it was ............. Loan Guarantees I believe, not Bonds as such, but the potential for indebtedness is the same.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Panda on Sun 29 May - 16:27

The End Is Nigh wrote:
Panda wrote:
I think it was The end is Nigh who said the U.K. Government have recently bought Portugese Bonds so that should be the sweetener.

Yes, it was ............. Loan Guarantees I believe, not Bonds as such, but the potential for indebtedness is the same.


It"s like monopoly Money all these Loan Guarantees and Bonds........which Country do you thinkl will be the first to default, Greece I suspect. there is no
way one curency fits all.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  widowan on Sun 29 May - 16:51

Panda wrote:

I remember Stuart Prior ranting that the first test indicated 15 of the 19 Alleles matched which was enough to make a charge in Britain.

That's right. As we have seen many times in the last 3.5 years. However the FSS also cautioned that the test has to be run THREE times because working with such small samples you have to corroborate this, this wasn't done to see if they could fake the results to come out some different way, it was done because you do three tests - the second to corroborate the first and if it does NOT then a third to see which way it goes.

I can see why, if Amaral and Grime did not know and would not be expected to know, that this is how it works, they could be outraged and say what do you mean you did a second test & it didn't match, that sounds like a cover up, why isn't the first test good enough?.

But that IS the process, I would not want them to change that so they could get a conviction - here, this one test matches, maybe others won't, so we just won't do any others. That would be very wrong, the lcn dna is cutting edge and risky enough on its own, even if you do it properly - they have had, back in December 2007, a big kerfluffle about this.

If the second test did in fact corroborate the first and FSS lied about this that is a different story and the detectives will see that. If the first test or all tests have somehow been "lost" that would be dodgy as well although evidently that kind of thing was done back in the 70s when banging up suspected IRA members it was seen then as well. And that brought down a whole police force into disgrace in West Midlands. The Birmingham 6 etc.

THey still have these test results I hope - and if they have the first test with 15 of 20 if the second test does not corroborate that, then that is the problem - and would be the problem no matter who they were suspecting or who was doing the test. The reason that the two can fail to match is that you are getting a tiny sample and if it was collected improperly - or the lab workers got any fragment of their own dna in there - or if contamination was picked up from the scene such as other children's dna being in the boot from their belongings or nappies - then you can't corroborate that first match, therefore you can't in fact know that the first one was the "good" sample and the second was the contaminated one - it could be the other way around. We like that first test because it confirms our beliefs but that is not impartial.

If they had 15 out of 20 two times they still would not have been able to use that in PT because that is the law. So rather than the FSS doing something tohelp cover up for McCanns it can simply be that the tests did not pan out to corroborate each other, and the suspects were afforded the same protection under law that any other person doing a crime in POrtugal would get, as you need 19 alleles (I think) out of 20 in that country.

We may not like it but the law is the law, and the PJ had to follow laws - McCanns could have slipped thru a crack here, because PT may change that law when they have more famiiliarity with this kind of dna testing, to where 15 would be enough or even 12 - if indeed it gets sophisticated enough to be trustworthy - not sure what the status is but in 2008 we were reading that people in prison convicted based on this were going to be able to file appeals because they were sailing a little too close to the wind treating lcn dna like it was fool proof when really it has room for error.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  widowan on Sun 29 May - 17:01

Also if the second test was even 12 or 13, of 20 the law in the UK is, I think, that you need 12 markers. So if they have that - while it might not be enough in PT, if it is in the UK they may have a better understanding of the cadaver dogs than mcCanns do, they don't bark at sausages or to please the handler - along with this different law about dna, they may decide to open a UK investigation.

It is obvious McCanns are working with defense lawyers to prevent proactive explanations and get those out via their PR man. That in itself to me goes beyond what innocent people would feel they need to do.

Then mcCann wants the real fit up artist, Jim Gamble, to work with him on finding a pedophile to pin this on, again, Gamble would not be my choice based on his dodgy record at the biggest police scandal in 30 years with Op Ore, unless I was desperately wanting a similar outcome.


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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

Post  Panda on Sun 29 May - 17:24


Widowan

I don"t think the McCanns will spend any money yet they will first of all wait and see whther the recon does go ahead and what form it will take. Since
this is their last chance to make any money and they have hefty Legal Expenses they will be careful this time. They really can"t come out with new caricatures spotted half way around the World when a review is imminent.

BTW is it you who lives in America , in Texas, or am I getting you mixed up with weary. It"s just that you obviously know so much about the caase and British custom.

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Re: Unless it is Re-opened, with the co-operation of the PJ, it is Meaningless

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