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TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  duncanmac on Thu 27 Oct - 18:38

I will be interested to see what happens to the police, for the arrest and public slaughter, of a man whose only crime was that he happened to be her landlord with grey unkempt hair.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Panda on Thu 27 Oct - 20:00

I think it must be very hard for any Juror to make a decision on such a high profile case with such conflicting evidence. If Tabak claims he
was only with Jo for ten minutes before trying to kiss her, how come her earing is found in the Bed and his DNA on her clothes.?

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Thu 27 Oct - 22:12

duncanmac wrote:I will be interested to see what happens to the police, for the arrest and public slaughter, of a man whose only crime was that he happened to be her landlord with grey unkempt hair.

I can kind of understand the police questioning the LL. Tabak fingered him and put him in the frame. At the time they had no reason to doubt Tabaks word. It was the press that dug out the LL info and put it in news reports.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Thu 27 Oct - 22:20

Panda wrote:I think it must be very hard for any Juror to make a decision on such a high profile case with such conflicting evidence. If Tabak claims he
was only with Jo for ten minutes before trying to kiss her, how come her earing is found in the Bed and his DNA on her clothes.?
I bet theres only one or two who believe a word Tabak has said on the jury. He's a proven liar. The framing of the landlord for one. Saying he saw him and his car outside the flat. The judge wants them all to agree a verdict at this point but as time goes on, if they can't, he will take a majority.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Panda on Thu 27 Oct - 22:41

wjk wrote:
Panda wrote:I think it must be very hard for any Juror to make a decision on such a high profile case with such conflicting evidence. If Tabak claims he
was only with Jo for ten minutes before trying to kiss her, how come her earing is found in the Bed and his DNA on her clothes.?
I bet theres only one or two who believe a word Tabak has said on the jury. He's a proven liar. The framing of the landlord for one. Saying he saw him and his car outside the flat. The judge wants them all to agree a verdict at this point but as time goes on, if they can't, he will take a majority.

Well the Jury was unable to come to a decision and they have to return to Court tomorrow.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Thu 27 Oct - 22:47

Yes, because at the moment the judge wants a unanimous decision.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Krisy22 on Thu 27 Oct - 22:49



Quite interesting on facebook discussions, they are running a Final poll...guilty or not guilty of Murder and its standing at 64-33 at the moment.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Thu 27 Oct - 22:58

Krisy22 wrote:

Quite interesting on facebook discussions, they are running a Final poll...guilty or not guilty of Murder and its standing at 64-33 at the moment.
Interesting, krisy. I bet the jury are similar. I think we'll get a decision tomorrow if the judge says he'll take a majority verdict.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Krisy22 on Thu 27 Oct - 23:18

wjk wrote:
Krisy22 wrote:

Quite interesting on facebook discussions, they are running a Final poll...guilty or not guilty of Murder and its standing at 64-33 at the moment.
Interesting, krisy. I bet the jury are similar. I think we'll get a decision tomorrow if the judge says he'll take a majority verdict.


I didn't realise the judge could do that wjk. Thought it had to be 10-2.

What if its 7-5 can he take that.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 9:45

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/27/vincent-tabak-continue-deliberations-yeates

Vincent Tabak jury continue deliberations

Dutch engineer is accused of the murder of Joanna Yeates, 25, in Bristol

Steven Morris guardian.co.uk, Thursday 27 October 2011 09.52 BST Article history

Vincent Tabak has admitted the manslaughter of his neighbour, Joanna Yeates, but denies her murder.

The jury in the trial of Vincent Tabak is spending a second day trying to decide if the Dutch engineer murdered Joanna Yeates.

It began its deliberations on Wednesday and remained for just under three hours in the jury room before being sent home for the night.

The six men and six women were reconvening at Bristol crown court on Thursday to carry on discussing whether Tabak intended to kill or seriously harm his neighbour at his flat.

Mr Justice Field, the trial judge, has told the panel to try to reach a unanimous decision. When he sent them out on Wednesday he urged them to keep emotion out of their decision.

Summing up the case, the judge said it was a tragedy that 25-year-old Yeates, a "lovely young woman with a promising future", had been "robbed of her life".

He said her death continued to have a devastating effect on her family and boyfriend. But he instructed the jurors not to let feelings cloud their judgment.

Tabak, 33, has admitted the manslaughter of his neighbour but denies her murder.

After two and a half weeks of hearing evidence and speeches from the prosecution and defence, the jury on Wednesday listened as Field gave a two-hour overview of the case.

The judge told the jury that the task of deciding on a verdict was a heavy responsibility. Manslaughter was a serious offence but murder a "much graver one".

He explained that for the panel to convict Tabak of murder it must be sure that he had intended to kill Yeates or cause her really serious bodily injury.

Once more, the court was told that Tabak had "gained access" to Yeates's flat in Clifton, Bristol, and had strangled the landscape architect before "moving quickly" to cover his tracks, dumping her body at the side of a road. He had "embarked on a life of calculated deception", the judge said.

Field reminded the jurors of Tabak's claim that he tried to kiss Yeates after she supposedly made a flirtatious remark to him. Tabak says she screamed and he put one hand over her mouth and another around her neck.

The judge said an "important issue" was the duration of strangulation.

Tabak says it was around 20 seconds before Yeates fell lifeless to the floor. Field pointed out that both pathologists who gave evidence during the trial expected Yeates to have struggled. Tabak says she did not struggle.

The judge reminded the jury of the 43 injuries found on Yeates when her body was discovered in a mound of snow on Christmas Day last year. He suggested the jurors focus on a series of bruises as they could only have been caused in life. He also highlighted the finding that she had injuries to both sides of her head.

The judge also spoke of Tabak's conduct after he killed Yeates. The Dutch national had carried out online research on topics such as manslaughter, sexual assaults and body decomposition and accepted he told a series of "calculated lies" to the police.

Reminding the jury about Tabak's testimony in the witness box, the judge asked the jury to make allowances for the "stress" he was under and the fact that English is not his first language.

He said the fact that the defendant had lied after the killing could help the jury assess whether he was a "truthful witness". However, the fact that he lied did not mean that he murdered Yeates.

Field spelled out how crucial parts of Tabak's story had only emerged when his defence began in court. He reminded the panel that the prosecution alleged Tabak had "tailored" or "invented" his case.

The judge concluded: "You may think the neck is a very vulnerable area and the defendant must have appreciated this."

Tabak had said Yeates did not struggle. Was this "what one would expect", the judge asked.

He said the defendant had accepted he could have left the flat during the attack but had not done so, and that he did not try to resuscitate her.

"It is your task to decide if you are sure that when he strangled Joanna he intended to kill her or at the very least cause her really serious harm," said the judge. "If you are sure your verdict will be guilty. If you are not sure your verdict must be not guilty."

Yeates's parents, David and Teresa, and her boyfriend, Greg Reardon, watched from the front row of the public gallery. Tabak rested his head on his clasped hands, rarely looking up.

The trial continues.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 9:51

The judge (having re-read that Guardian article I just posted) does seem to be pointing out to the jury that Jo was bruised and injured whilst alive and then slowly strangled to death by a man who, despite claiming he didn't intend to kill her or cause her serious harm, didn't attempt to save her life and hasn't necessarily told the whole truth.

I don't actually see what's to discuss? Surely this is evidence enough to find VT guilty of murder?

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Panda on Fri 28 Oct - 9:58

Thanks Wintabells,


The judge reminded the jury of the 43 injuries found on Yeates when her
body was discovered in a mound of snow on Christmas Day last year. He
suggested the jurors focus on a series of bruises as they could only
have been caused in life. He also highlighted the finding that she had
injuries to both sides of her head."

As I said before, Tabak must have been in Bed with Jo for his DNA to be on her body. Many of the bruises could have been caused by moving
her body around and i"m convinced he is saying that he was there for 10 minutes etc is to lessen the shame he must feel for what he has
put his girlfriend and family through.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 10:29

Panda wrote:Thanks Wintabells,


The judge reminded the jury of the 43 injuries found on Yeates when her
body was discovered in a mound of snow on Christmas Day last year. He
suggested the jurors focus on a series of bruises as they could only
have been caused in life. He also highlighted the finding that she had
injuries to both sides of her head."

As I said before, Tabak must have been in Bed with Jo for his DNA to be on her body. Many of the bruises could have been caused by moving
her body around and i"m convinced he is saying that he was there for 10 minutes etc is to lessen the shame he must feel for what he has
put his girlfriend and family through.

Hi Panda

I think the jury have been told that bruises are evidence of trauma pre-death (I'm assuming bruises don't appear once a person has died) so I don't think they were caused by moving her body around, although other injuries/abrasions could have been, along with damage caused by ice particles apparently. Something clearly happened in the bedroom, yes I agree.

Am I right in thinking VT only had his first date with his 'Guardian Soulmates' girlfriend in the November before Jo died? If so, they moved in together pretty quickly didn't they? He may well have some kind of sexual deviancy whereby he enjoys strangling women or suchlike and the police could be aware of this from his internet records (hence the prosecution's questions along these lines) and his g/f has had a lucky escape herself. I'm assuming she must have been the 'sobbing girl' who rang the police after seeing the Crimewatch programme?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3365913/Weeping-girl-tipped-off-Jo-police.html

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 10:30

stevenmorris20 steven morris
Morning from Bristol crown court. Just being called back into court. Vincent Tabak denies murder.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Panda on Fri 28 Oct - 10:41

Wintabells wrote:stevenmorris20 steven morris
Morning from Bristol crown court. Just being called back into court. Vincent Tabak denies murder.

there"s a word for that, you know, where someone puts themself in a near death situation ,I remember there was a film made about it.
I think a decision will be reached today and that it will be manslaughter if only because he confessed to a chaplain which suggests he had a
conscience.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 10:42

stevenmorris20 steven morris
Jury coming back into court in Tabak trial. They have passed a note to the judge. No verdict yet.
56 seconds ago

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Fri 28 Oct - 10:46

Krisy22 wrote:
wjk wrote:
Krisy22 wrote:

Quite interesting on facebook discussions, they are running a Final poll...guilty or not guilty of Murder and its standing at 64-33 at the moment.
Interesting, krisy. I bet the jury are similar. I think we'll get a decision tomorrow if the judge says he'll take a majority verdict.


I didn't realise the judge could do that wjk. Thought it had to be 10-2.

What if its 7-5 can he take that.
No he can only take 10-2 I think?
I was just meaning, like panda was saying, obviously not all are agreeing but I imagine maj think he's guilty of murder, like the poll is showing

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 10:50

stevenmorris20 steven morris
Before jury sent back out, judge repeated part of his summing up re "intention".
1 minute ago
Judge has sent Tabak jury back out to continue deliberating. He tells them to try to reach unanimous verdict. Been out for over 9 hours.
4 minutes ago


(don't think I can keep posting Steven's tweets, as I may need to go out, but will do so for as long as I can)

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 10:54

So if the jury can't agree at a majority vote of 10/2, what happens? is it classed as a 'hung jury' and then a possible re-trial?

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 10:56

stevenmorris20 steven morris
Tabak judge says if jury is not sure then verdict should be not guilty.
1 minute ago
stevenmorris20 steven morris
If having examined the evidence the jury is sure he intended to kill Joanna Yeates or cause her really serious harm, verdict will be guilty.
2 minutes ago
Judge repeats parts of a "route to verdict" document he gave Tabak jury. Did Tabak intend to kill or cause really serious bodily harm?
3 minutes ago

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 11:02

I find it strange that the judge has advised the jury that if they're not sure, they should find him not guilty. Unless none of them are sure, this doesn't make any sense.

What's the criteria for a 'hung jury' then? when some of them are 'sure' and some aren't?

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Fri 28 Oct - 11:02

Wintabells wrote:So if the jury can't agree at a majority vote of 10/2, what happens? is it classed as a 'hung jury' and then a possible re-trial?

I think so, it was when I was on a jury this year.
We got 9-3 on one case but judge wouldn't take it. It wasn't a murder trial tho.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  Wintabells on Fri 28 Oct - 11:07

wjk wrote:
Wintabells wrote:So if the jury can't agree at a majority vote of 10/2, what happens? is it classed as a 'hung jury' and then a possible re-trial?

I think so, it was when I was on a jury this year.
We got 9-3 on one case but judge wouldn't take it. It wasn't a murder trial tho.

Hi wjk.

Oh, ok, I think I get it. I think the tweet means that the judge advised the jury as individuals that if they are 'sure' they vote 'guilty' if they're not, they vote 'not guilty'.... as opposed to him addressing the jury as a whole entity. If that makes sense... So if 3 aren't sure, and 9 are, then there's a 9/3 guilty vote and the judge then has to decide what next.

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Fri 28 Oct - 11:10

Wintabells wrote:I find it strange that the judge has advised the jury that if they're not sure, they should find him not guilty. Unless none of them are sure, this doesn't make any sense.

What's the criteria for a 'hung jury' then? when some of them are 'sure' and some aren't?

He'll only be found not guilty if all of them think he's not guilty at this stage. Can't see that.
It will only change when the judge excepts a majority verdict and I still can't see majority saying not guilty but hey, look at Casey Anthony!

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Re: TRIAL OF VINCENT TABAK BEGINS 4/10/11

Post  wjk on Fri 28 Oct - 11:14

Wintabells wrote:
wjk wrote:
Wintabells wrote:So if the jury can't agree at a majority vote of 10/2, what happens? is it classed as a 'hung jury' and then a possible re-trial?

I think so, it was when I was on a jury this year.
We got 9-3 on one case but judge wouldn't take it. It wasn't a murder trial tho.

Hi wjk.

Oh, ok, I think I get it. I think the tweet means that the judge advised the jury as individuals that if they are 'sure' they vote 'guilty' if they're not, they vote 'not guilty'.... as opposed to him addressing the jury as a whole entity. If that makes sense... So if 3 aren't sure, and 9 are, then there's a 9/3 guilty vote and the judge then has to decide what next.

Yes, our judge kept sending us back out to TRY and get a majority but no one would change their view. He then had to decide whether to throw the case out or re-trial. Obviously as this is murder, it will be a re-trial.

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