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An occasional nightmare

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An occasional nightmare

Post  comperedna on Mon 31 Oct - 17:48

... and it is just that, before anyone accuses me of being tasteless. I think about what happens to the bodies of people who die in hospital. They are simply taken to the hospital morgue. Mostly they are put in the fridge because they soon go off to a funeral director, or to the house of the family. Occasionally, if there is a legal case, or no known relative, the body may go in the morgue freezer for longer term storage. Now this is ordinary. It is routine. When someone has died you have a body for disposal before decomposition sets in... not a person, child or otherwise... IMHO and experience a body is not really like a 'person'... the sadness is a separate issue. So... the simplest disposal for me would be the normal hospital one, but the longer term option... a freezer... somewhere in a friend's freezer...(it would have to be a very close friend's/relatives freezer,) where it would not be discovered. It could be buried deep down under layers of normal contents, and it could stay there safely, well-wrapped and undiscovered for years and years... Well, I said I might be accused of tastelessness... under layers of frozen peas etc... but I think it is the simplest solution. It just depends how fixated relatives would be on the 'remains' in remembering their lost child. I think the two things could be completely separated in the mind.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  LJC on Mon 31 Oct - 23:46

I too often think, if she's dead, she's frozen somewhere. I don't know about a friend's freezer amongst the food contents, no I doubt that, who would want a child's body in their freezer. Not me, not for all the millions of pounds in the world I would not want that.

However, a rented apartment in Portugal, just rented anonymously, paid every month on time good as gold, so no unhappy landlord. Just somewhere where they can go and be quiet and private and be with Madeleine. Probably a furnished place, everything already there, so no awkward questions asked about purchasing a freezer. Rented under an anonymous name, no questions asked. They probably never meet the landlord, no need to, the rent is always paid on time.

That is what I imagine. That is what I think is realistic. Somewhere out there its a strong possibility that there is a little fully furnished apartment, and its in Portugal somewhere, and its got a fully equipped kitchen with a freezer, and they can return there under cover of darkness and anonymous, and they can be with Madeleine, and to all the outside world they are returning to Portugal to meet with lawyers and they are stopping in 5 star hotels, but somewhere during the course of their day they find the time to escape incognito to their little rented apartment to be with Madeleine. That is what I imagine.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Angelique on Tue 1 Nov - 0:27

comperedna

I too wonder about where Madeleine is.

I sometimes have fleeting thoughts of her but not frozen.

Though while the discussions were going on when some residues which were found in the boot of the car were described as frozen, some people couldn't bear the thought that she would have been kept in a freezer. But as you say, it's quite a natural place to 'place' a body. It would be a normal thing for Doctors to consider as acceptable as well.

My thoughts are of her body in a warm place - so I think she is still in Portugal.

LJC - maybe you are right in the apartment angle but I think it is possible it may have a garden - I try to imagine that if your idea is correct - could you see them going and opening a freezer and staring down at her - no how cold and hard they would have to be.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  gillyspot on Tue 1 Nov - 6:38

As both the McCanns were experienced doctors and would have had experience of people dying (and being around bodies) & also given their (particularly Gerry's) cold clinical nature I can find no problems imagining them freezing the body in the event of her death. This is assuming they had access to a suitable freezer. Also remember that they have consistently lied (and changed their stories) to keep the PJ at bay. Is that the actions of most loving parents of an "abducted child"

I do have a problem however with the thought that Madeleine is still frozen and kept in Portugal. This is for practical and reasons of morals. On a practical note - If there was a power cut whilst they were away in UK imagine what may happen with the body defrosting and the smell alerting the neighbours?

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Frozen at first, then-

Post  tigger on Tue 1 Nov - 9:03

gillyspot wrote:As both the McCanns were experienced doctors and would have had experience of people dying (and being around bodies) & also given their (particularly Gerry's) cold clinical nature I can find no problems imagining them freezing the body in the event of her death. This is assuming they had access to a suitable freezer. Also remember that they have consistently lied (and changed their stories) to keep the PJ at bay. Is that the actions of most loving parents of an "abducted child"

I do have a problem however with the thought that Madeleine is still frozen and kept in Portugal. This is for practical and reasons of morals. On a practical note - If there was a power cut whilst they were away in UK imagine what may happen with the body defrosting and the smell alerting the neighbours?

Not only that, far too risky I think. No - Murat had access to quite a few locations which were unoccupied. Around the beginning of June, (tourist season is starting in earnest) I think the final burial took place. Because we have evidence both of freezing and defrosting (in the car). Imo this means quite a long journey, so my money is still on Huelva. Imo also, I don't think either putting the body in the freezer, or the actual digging of the grave and burial was done by the McCanns.

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Gruesome..

Post  NoStone on Tue 1 Nov - 10:33

This is a gruesome topic but seeing as it is being discussed it is relevant to cover all options (anyway with whole business is grusome led by our fav celeb's 'The Gruesome Twosome')

I can see why people,especially locals, could see the rugged high cliffs at Sagres as being a potential place to dispose of a small body as it would be quickly smashed to smithereens and the parts crushed against the rocks by the Atlantic Ocean with little remaining in a short space of time. Those cliffs are so unaccessable either from the top of the cliffs - down, virtually impossible from the sea - up. But the risk of being spotted there even at night would be too great methinks, its a popular tourist spot.

I have often wondered if it would be possible to 'lodge' a small body with another i.e. put it in a coffin with another body which would then be buried legitimately? I wonder how many burials took place between May and the end of August, either from the little church in PDL, or from neighboring churches in the area???

I am torn between this idea and Huelva where the body might be thrown down a steep rocky/wooded rivine as in the No Stone Unturned book...but then again I wonder if the Huelva detour was meant as a distraction, as a red-herring to take detectives away from the scent!!??

If the body was stored in the wheel well of a car and the boot filled with boxes and boxes of posters and leaflets which was the reason for the trip (except of course all the shops were closed for bank holiday), the risk the body being discovered if stopped by a normal police road patrol would be very low. Why would a policeman have you empty all those boxes out the boot just to check the spare tyre??? So on the basis that a frozen body might have been stored in the wheel well for some time, long enough to start defrosting, then I guess I talk myself into disposal during the Huelva detour!

But then again with the right co-operation from 'friends', maybe lodging is very possible and the chances of the body being discovered once the legitimate burial was complete is negligible. Someone would need a lot of evidence to warrent an exhumation so the secret would be good forever. I really do wonder how many buirals took place in the area in that time, not many I would have thought which would narrow the possibility down to just a few possible graves.

So Huelva or buried with a 'friend' I am torn!


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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Panda on Tue 1 Nov - 12:06

What about if the body was hidden and taken back to the U.K. by Jon, the film-maker , his "equipment" cost £1,800 to transport back to the U.K. and
he could have stored it until the McCanns returned to the U.K. and decided what to do with it.

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temporarily then

Post  comperedna on Tue 1 Nov - 12:43

I think that could have happened first off...(I agree about power cuts really) but all other initial 'solutions' have too much going against them IMHO... I just can't think what is most likely to have happened at stage 2. All stage 2 solutions seem too risky... I know lots have been suggested...

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NoStone

Post  tigger on Tue 1 Nov - 13:24

Instead repeating your entire post just replying.
Lodging the body with another body really calls up an enormous amount of logistics. Besides it would still be evidence if found.
You'd have to have a convenient friends who had a body of his own to bury, no really that's asking too much.
Throwing bodies down cliffs isn't as safe as it sounds. You'd have to be very familiar with the tides, think of all those weird shoes with feet in them washing up in Canada.

The Huelva trip wasn't what they made out it was. It doesn't even look if there were any reporters on board. It may just have been Jon Corner and possibly John McCann. There was a feria on, which means the town was going to be packed and nobody would take any notice of the McCanns.
It look as if they left very early, managed to get some photographs and videos done in what looks like early morning in the bus station. Then some shots of them sticking posters up at a petrol station. Another shot of possibly John at a cafe, with shadows indicating early morning.
They were seen leaving the town by lunchtime, which may have been as early as 12.00. A woman witness gave this info to the PJ.
The PJ know from GPS that they went places that made no sense on the Huelva trip.

Now just outside Huelva are areas of extremely acid soils. I'm keeping in mind that by then they must already have had contact with Metodo3 (a bunch of crooks as they proved to be) people who were into drug smuggling. They would know of places to lose an inconvenient body. After some years, no DNa can be retrieved.

But I don't think they went to bury the body on Aug. 2nd. I think they went to pay their respects, according to the roman catholic church.
I think the body was buried one to two months earlier, by a third party. The mileage on the car was enough to have made many trips to Huelva by the time they left. The remark about the sea bass appeared in Gerry's blog around the 8th June.

I think Maddie died early in the holiday 30th/1st is my guess (creche record/phone records)
The Roman Catholic church requires:
3rd day - prayers
9th day - prayers
40 days - memorial service with family
3 months - visit the grave to say good bye.

Well: 3rd/4th - they ask for a priest and where the church is
10th/11th - special vigil for Maddie in the church
40 days - 9th June, family flies in for 'picnic' in Sagres where according to some reports, most were wearing sober clothing.
3 months - Huelva.


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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Loopdaloop on Tue 1 Nov - 15:45

tigger wrote:

Not only that, far too risky I think. No - Murat had access to quite a few locations which were unoccupied. Around the beginning of June, (tourist season is starting in earnest) I think the final burial took place. Because we have evidence both of freezing and defrosting (in the car). Imo this means quite a long journey, so my money is still on Huelva. Imo also, I don't think either putting the body in the freezer, or the actual digging of the grave and burial was done by the McCanns.

You think the Mccanns were so supportive of Murat because they used his local knowledge to dispose of the body?

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  fred on Tue 1 Nov - 17:12

Loopdaloop wrote:
tigger wrote:

Not only that, far too risky I think. No - Murat had access to quite a few locations which were unoccupied. Around the beginning of June, (tourist season is starting in earnest) I think the final burial took place. Because we have evidence both of freezing and defrosting (in the car). Imo this means quite a long journey, so my money is still on Huelva. Imo also, I don't think either putting the body in the freezer, or the actual digging of the grave and burial was done by the McCanns.

You think the Mccanns were so supportive of Murat because they used his local knowledge to dispose of the body?



I think Murat was involved, then JT unwittingly set the events into freefall when she fingered him, and he then handed the body back to Gerry, hence the late delay in the hire car and the trip to Huelva. Murat had access to prorties in PDL and the surrounding areas, all unoccupied at the time, some with freezers etc....

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Panda on Tue 1 Nov - 17:26

It would account for the "no comment" by Gerry when asked if he knew Murat.....but it was some of Gerry"s friends who fingered Murat, mow why would they do that?

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  fred on Tue 1 Nov - 17:47

Panda wrote:It would account for the "no comment" by Gerry when asked if he knew Murat.....but it was some of Gerry"s friends who fingered Murat, mow why would they do that?



God knows panda. But perhaps JT didn't know the full story and she really thought M had been abducted!

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Panda on Tue 1 Nov - 18:12

fred wrote:
Panda wrote:It would account for the "no comment" by Gerry when asked if he knew Murat.....but it was some of Gerry"s friends who fingered Murat, mow why would they do that?



God knows panda. But perhaps JT didn't know the full story and she really thought M had been abducted!

Hi fred, it wasn"t just JT though, it was the other three who swore they saw him by 5a.on the night Madeleine went missing.There is something not right
about the Tanner/OBrien scenario. Tanner sees Gerry about 9"ish on her way to check on her children and finds her daughter is not well, so she calls
O"Brien to the apartment to care for his daughter leaving his half eaten steak which is kept warm by the cook. He supposedly washes a sheet where his
daughter had been sick and hangs it over the verandah to dry, while JT goes back to the Restaurant to eat her main course. Why couldn"t she look after her daughter or stay with O"Brien to make sure her daughter was O.K.???

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  tanszi on Tue 1 Nov - 19:28

ie always wondered about that, it would be usual for the one who has the dinner in front of them to finish it and then go and tend to the child, whilst the other is then able to go and have food, dont forget we re not talking usual here lol.


Last edited by tanszi on Tue 1 Nov - 19:28; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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definitely knew Murat.

Post  tigger on Tue 1 Nov - 19:48

Loopdaloop wrote:
tigger wrote:

Not only that, far too risky I think. No - Murat had access to quite a few locations which were unoccupied. Around the beginning of June, (tourist season is starting in earnest) I think the final burial took place. Because we have evidence both of freezing and defrosting (in the car). Imo this means quite a long journey, so my money is still on Huelva. Imo also, I don't think either putting the body in the freezer, or the actual digging of the grave and burial was done by the McCanns.

You think the Mccanns were so supportive of Murat because they used his local knowledge to dispose of the body?

I definitely think so. Check out the 17 points which Murat had to change in his statement to the PJ. Joanna Morais blog I think.
Don't forget that Gerry had already been to Portugal (prob. PdL) several times for a golfing weekend. Payne had acquaintances there (they got them new mobiles) . The evidence of the mobile calls is also very clear. Twice Murat and Gerry switched their phones on and off at exactly the same time.

I think the way Maddie died, was entirely due to K and G, but I think the family and the T7 were forewarned (Maddie not being well, etc. ) To get the family to believe them and keep them onside as it were, the religious aspect was useful. It's a case of: Maddie died, PM out of the question (drugs - whatever) we will lose jobs, house, twins if we don't hide the body and we have a plan....
So for the family and religious friends such as Michael Wright the idea is that they all know the body has been hidden, but all the rituals due to the dead have been performed.
So quite a lot of people know about the body - although only a select few know where - but not the real story of how and why she died.
The priest certainly figured it out and the Vatican whooshed them from their website, two days after meeting the Pope.

And to get back to the plan: Start a Fund with Maddie's little face posted all over the world, use the proceeds (eventually) to help other lost children, get hold of celebrities and rich people, become Ambassadors for children's rights. Be celebrities and they lived happily ever after.
And Dr. Amaral spoiled it all. Because they're still living in Rothley, not in Portugal in a smart villa (Gerry indicated that they wouldn't leave Portugal until they found Maddie), they're never going to be Ambassadors for anything, a second book is out of the question because this one has barely made the advance and even people who believe the story are getting a little bored. Clarrie has jumped ship and despite getting Kate all sorts of awards, it doesn't make her more popular.


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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Loveday on Tue 1 Nov - 20:45

tigger wrote:
The Roman Catholic church requires:
3rd day - prayers
9th day - prayers
40 days - memorial service with family
3 months - visit the grave to say good bye.

Tigger, what do you mean by 'requires'? I was born a Catholic, come from a large extended Catholic family, went to Catholic schools and am still practicing. I've known lots of Catholic people die and been to quite a few Catholic funerals. I have never heard this and don't know of anyone who has done it or felt it was required of them.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Panda on Tue 1 Nov - 21:01

tanszi wrote:ie always wondered about that, it would be usual for the one who has the dinner in front of them to finish it and then go and tend to the child, whilst the other is then able to go and have food, dont forget we re not talking usual here lol.

Hi Tanzi.......that"s true!!!!! It"s frustrating though that we know so much and yet so little.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  LJC on Tue 1 Nov - 23:00

Angelique wrote:comperedna

I too wonder about where Madeleine is.

I sometimes have fleeting thoughts of her but not frozen.

Though while the discussions were going on when some residues which were found in the boot of the car were described as frozen, some people couldn't bear the thought that she would have been kept in a freezer. But as you say, it's quite a natural place to 'place' a body. It would be a normal thing for Doctors to consider as acceptable as well.

My thoughts are of her body in a warm place - so I think she is still in Portugal.

LJC - maybe you are right in the apartment angle but I think it is possible it may have a garden - I try to imagine that if your idea is correct - could you see them going and opening a freezer and staring down at her - no how cold and hard they would have to be.

Yes, I see your point. Yes, I think an anonymously rented house with a small garden where she may have a temporary resting place is a strong possibility.

As far as power cuts are concerned if she were frozen, she would have to be well wrapped up in plenty of plastic. If there were a power cut at least the smell would be at a minimum and, as freezers have sealed doors, I doubt anyone would notice any smell. It would only be the McCanns coming and going, incognito, to their secret anonymously rented accommodation.

I doubt somehow a landlord receiving his rent bang on time every month, having received a large deposit up front, would ask any questions of his tenants.


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Got it from a devout Catholic person.

Post  tigger on Wed 2 Nov - 6:38

Loveday wrote:
tigger wrote:
The Roman Catholic church requires:
3rd day - prayers
9th day - prayers
40 days - memorial service with family
3 months - visit the grave to say good bye.

Tigger, what do you mean by 'requires'? I was born a Catholic, come from a large extended Catholic family, went to Catholic schools and am still practicing. I've known lots of Catholic people die and been to quite a few Catholic funerals. I have never heard this and don't know of anyone who has done it or felt it was required of them.

I am not a Catholic so having seen articles about Sagres where the 40 days was mentioned, Huelva, where the three months fit in, I asked a devout Catholic friend of mine who checked with her priest. I can't do better than that.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Sunflower27 on Wed 2 Nov - 8:34

I don't believe Madeleine is buried somewhere where her parents can come and visit.

It is too risky. At any point some paparazzi could follow them and uncover the whole thing.

Also, the gruesome twosome would not be able to keep up the facade and look as confident as they do if in the back of their minds they thought a body would be found and linked to them.

They made peace with themselves that what happened to madeleine was a tragic accident and there was nothing they could have done to bring her back so they are not going to go down for it. Of course neglecting a child is a crime but they have conveniently dismissed that 'If Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and died then how is that our fault?'. I think that is the most telling comment of all.

Her body will never be found - and the Gruesome Twosome are 100% confident of that.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Panda on Wed 2 Nov - 8:42

Sunflower27 wrote:I don't believe Madeleine is buried somewhere where her parents can come and visit.

It is too risky. At any point some paparazzi could follow them and uncover the whole thing.

Also, the gruesome twosome would not be able to keep up the facade and look as confident as they do if in the back of their minds they thought a body would be found and linked to them.

They made peace with themselves that what happened to madeleine was a tragic accident and there was nothing they could have done to bring her back so they are not going to go down for it. Of course neglecting a child is a crime but they have conveniently dismissed that 'If Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and died then how is that our fault?'. I think that is the most telling comment of all.

Her body will never be found - and the Gruesome Twosome are 100% confident of that.

Morning Sunflower 27

Yes, I would agree with you there and of all the possibilities I think poor Madeliene was put in the missing Tennis bag, weighted with Rocks and thrown fron nearby cliffs into the Sea.It makes us shudder but the McCanns had a lot to lose and in any case doctors don"t have the same attitude to the human body that we have.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  pennylane on Wed 2 Nov - 8:49

Panda wrote:
Sunflower27 wrote:I don't believe Madeleine is buried somewhere where her parents can come and visit.

It is too risky. At any point some paparazzi could follow them and uncover the whole thing.

Also, the gruesome twosome would not be able to keep up the facade and look as confident as they do if in the back of their minds they thought a body would be found and linked to them.

They made peace with themselves that what happened to madeleine was a tragic accident and there was nothing they could have done to bring her back so they are not going to go down for it. Of course neglecting a child is a crime but they have conveniently dismissed that 'If Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and died then how is that our fault?'. I think that is the most telling comment of all.

Her body will never be found - and the Gruesome Twosome are 100% confident of that.

Morning Sunflower 27

Yes, I would agree with you there and of all the possibilities I think poor Madeliene was put in the missing Tennis bag, weighted with Rocks and thrown fron nearby cliffs into the Sea.It makes us shudder but the McCanns had a lot to lose and in any case doctors don"t have the same attitude to the human body that we have.

Morning Sunflower and Panda,

I am very much in agreement with you both that Maddie was thrown in the ocean, although I think perhaps it was done some weeks later further along the coast, and that she was kept in a freezer in the interim.

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  Panda on Wed 2 Nov - 9:04

pennylane wrote:
Panda wrote:
Sunflower27 wrote:I don't believe Madeleine is buried somewhere where her parents can come and visit.

It is too risky. At any point some paparazzi could follow them and uncover the whole thing.

Also, the gruesome twosome would not be able to keep up the facade and look as confident as they do if in the back of their minds they thought a body would be found and linked to them.

They made peace with themselves that what happened to madeleine was a tragic accident and there was nothing they could have done to bring her back so they are not going to go down for it. Of course neglecting a child is a crime but they have conveniently dismissed that 'If Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and died then how is that our fault?'. I think that is the most telling comment of all.

Her body will never be found - and the Gruesome Twosome are 100% confident of that.

Morning Sunflower 27

Yes, I would agree with you there and of all the possibilities I think poor Madeliene was put in the missing Tennis bag, weighted with Rocks and thrown fron nearby cliffs into the Sea.It makes us shudder but the McCanns had a lot to lose and in any case doctors don"t have the same attitude to the human body that we have.

Morning Sunflower and Panda,

I am very much in agreement with you both that Maddie was thrown in the ocean, although I think perhaps it was done some weeks later further along the coast, and that she was kept in a freezer in the interim.

Morning pennylane

Maybe that"s where Murat came in .

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Re: An occasional nightmare

Post  pennylane on Wed 2 Nov - 9:10

Panda wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Panda wrote:
Sunflower27 wrote:I don't believe Madeleine is buried somewhere where her parents can come and visit.

It is too risky. At any point some paparazzi could follow them and uncover the whole thing.

Also, the gruesome twosome would not be able to keep up the facade and look as confident as they do if in the back of their minds they thought a body would be found and linked to them.

They made peace with themselves that what happened to madeleine was a tragic accident and there was nothing they could have done to bring her back so they are not going to go down for it. Of course neglecting a child is a crime but they have conveniently dismissed that 'If Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and died then how is that our fault?'. I think that is the most telling comment of all.

Her body will never be found - and the Gruesome Twosome are 100% confident of that.

Morning Sunflower 27

Yes, I would agree with you there and of all the possibilities I think poor Madeliene was put in the missing Tennis bag, weighted with Rocks and thrown fron nearby cliffs into the Sea.It makes us shudder but the McCanns had a lot to lose and in any case doctors don"t have the same attitude to the human body that we have.

Morning Sunflower and Panda,

I am very much in agreement with you both that Maddie was thrown in the ocean, although I think perhaps it was done some weeks later further along the coast, and that she was kept in a freezer in the interim.

Morning pennylane

Maybe that"s where Murat came in .

I think that's a distinct possibility, Panda!

pennylane
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