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Remit for Operation Grange now online

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  NoStone on Thu 5 Jan - 18:38

Operation Ludicrous!!??

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Guest on Thu 5 Jan - 18:39

NoStone wrote:Operation Ludicrous!!??

That's not at all helpful

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  jeanmonroe on Fri 6 Jan - 10:47

It is to examine the case and seek to determine, (as if the abduction occurred in the UK) "what additional, new investigative approaches we would take and which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter".
THIS IS GOOD!
It means that if the Met are now the sole 'investigators' having taken over from LP, and have ALL the LP's files, including the one's the LP would NOT give the McCanns access to, and given that the Met say @as if the abduction ocurred in the UK@ then the first people the Met will be interviewing (re-interviewing) will be those CLOSEST to the missing child, at the time, and the next tier, the T7 and then JEZ.
All of whom were in proximity of the scene.
The Met will be armed with all their previous 'statements' and ALL video interviews given since the dissappearance (all recorded and saved for posterity) and ANY variation given in new interviews will stick out like a sore thumb.
The Met cannot ignore the T10 (T9 plus JW) and start with interviewing waiters, staff, managers at OC all of whom saw NOTHING!
IF the Met do not re-interview, and i'm sure the T10 will be only to willing to take part, as all THEY want is Madeleine found and will, in their own words, 'DO ANYTHING to get her back' then something odd would have ocurred.
Family and friends are ALWAYS the first to be asked about a case if the police are involved.
It would be very strange if the Met did NOT interview those 'nearest' to an incident.
For example, Carl Probyn, JC Duggards (whom the McCanns oft quote) step father, who volunteered FOUR times for lie detector tests, and passed them all, something the McCanns and their friends have NEVER done.
I take heart that the METs involvement is now an 'INVESTIGATIVE review' rather than just a 'review'
We'll see.


Last edited by jeanmonroe on Fri 6 Jan - 11:52; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  pennylane on Fri 6 Jan - 10:57

Operation 'Carry On Doctor'

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  pennylane on Fri 6 Jan - 11:16

jeanmonroe wrote:It is to examine the case and seek to determine, (as if the abduction occurred in the UK) "what additional, new investigative approaches we would take and which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter".
THIS IS GOOD!
It means that if the Met are now the sole 'investigators' having taken over from LP, and have ALL the LP's files, and given that the Met say @as if the abduction ocurred in the UK@ then the first people the Met will be interviewing (re-interviewing) will be those CLOSEST to the missing child and the next tier, the T7 and then JEZ.
All of whom were in proximity of the scene.
The Met will be armed with all their previous 'statements' and ANY variation given in new interviews will stick out like a sore thumb.
The Met cannot ignore the T10 (T9 plus JW) and start with interviewing waiters, staff, managers at OC all of whom saw NOTHING!
IF the Met do not re-interview, and i'm sure the T10 will be only to willing to take part, as all THEY want is Madeleine found and will, in their own words, 'DO ANYTHING to get her back' then something odd would have ocurred.
Family and friends are ALWAYS the first to be asked about a case if the police are involved.
It would be very strange if the Met did NOT interview those 'nearest' to an incident.
For example, Carl Probyn, JC Duggards (whom the McCanns oft quote) step father, who volunteered FOUR times for lie detector tests, and passed them all, something the McCanns and their friends have NEVER done.
I take heart that the METs involvement is now an 'INVESTIGATIVE review' rather than just a 'review'
We'll see.

I hope so, Jean, I really do!

It is the Home Office that is paying for the Review, and it was the Home Office that thwarted the investigation, via non-cooperation methods, in the first place. It was the Government's own spin doctor that stood by the dodgy pair 24/7, ignoring all the glaring red flags, including the CSI dogs, the gaspar statements, and the pairs ever changing version of events, as did the good ole Home Office, and the CEOP department.

It's a penetrative circle of deep deception that is about to be neatly tied off (imo). I personally doubt the Met will go anywhere near the gruesome twosome, and I believe the Home Office will see to it that they don't!

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  jeanmonroe on Fri 6 Jan - 11:48

"It's a penetrative circle of deep deception that is about to be neatly tied off (imo). I personally doubt the Met will go anywhere near the gruesome twosome, and I believe the Home Office will see to it that they don't!"

BUT, what IF, just what if, there's an HONEST cop (30 to choose from) on the investigative team who's SILENCE could not be bought, at any price, and would rather resign than take part in a 'conspiracy of silence' and would go public rather than smear his/hers and the Met's reputation with more allegations of dishonesty.
If the Met come up with 'nothing remiss' they will have to provide protection for the entire T10 for the rest of their lives.
Because if just ONE of THEM does 'an Adrian Prout,' at ANY time in the future, the whole sordid mess is exposed for the world to see.
Honest BHH would have to resign instantly.
All the top government people, May, Cameron (review instigators) etc would HAVE to resign, on mass.
You think they'd risk that ( losing power in government) for protecting the McCanns, two entirely non descript doctors?
I don't think so.
The Met are under extreme scrutiny at the moment for their 'incompetence' in a whole host of cases and this ( proper, investigative, coppering) would go some way to begin salvaging their reputation.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  margaret on Fri 6 Jan - 12:41

jeanmonroe wrote:
BUT, what IF, just what if, there's an HONEST cop (30 to choose from) on the investigative team who's SILENCE could not be bought, at any price, and would rather resign than take part in a 'conspiracy of silence' and would go public rather than smear his/hers and the Met's reputation with more allegations of dishonesty.


Very true. All it takes is to smuggle out (even via email) one or two key pieces of paper.....


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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  pennylane on Fri 6 Jan - 12:46

jeanmonroe wrote:"It's a penetrative circle of deep deception that is about to be neatly tied off (imo). I personally doubt the Met will go anywhere near the gruesome twosome, and I believe the Home Office will see to it that they don't!"

BUT, what IF, just what if, there's an HONEST cop (30 to choose from) on the investigative team who's SILENCE could not be bought, at any price, and would rather resign than take part in a 'conspiracy of silence' and would go public rather than smear his/hers and the Met's reputation with more allegations of dishonesty.
If the Met come up with 'nothing remiss' they will have to provide protection for the entire T10 for the rest of their lives.
Because if just ONE of THEM does 'an Adrian Prout,' at ANY time in the future, the whole sordid mess is exposed for the world to see.
Honest BHH would have to resign instantly.
All the top government people, May, Cameron (review instigators) etc would HAVE to resign, on mass.
You think they'd risk that for protecting the McCanns, two entirely non descript doctors?
I don't think so.
The Met are under extreme scrutiny at the moment for their 'incompetence' in a whole host of cases and this ( proper, investigative, coppering) would go some way to begin salvaging their reputation.

We can but hope for a brave and honest policeman or two within this Review team, willing to put their future on the line if necessary, and do the right thing! Having seen what happens to whistle blowers in the past, I won't hold my breath.

Over the years, massive corruption within hospitals, drug companies, police forces, and politics etc have come to light, and nothing ever seems to change. The Leveson Inquiry is just another farce on top of a mountain of similar farces. Sadly I believe the system is rotten to the core. But "WHAT IF" is certainly a wonderful thought, and one that I am longing and praying for.

Another sliver of hope I have is that the dramatic exit of Sir Paul Stephenson and John Yates - AFTER the McCanns pushed Cameron's buttons hard for a review... has severely shifted the landscape, and left the gruesome twosome high and dry. I don't believe the pair would have called for a review in the manner they did, if there was a chance in hell they were risking being hauled in, and their version of events scrutinised and investigated with gusto, so let's hope TM's chain of enablers has been severely broken by recent events!

If your belief is proven correct, Jean, it would certainly restore my faith and optimism.... with bells on.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Guest on Fri 6 Jan - 12:53

This "honest cop" business is why I don't subscribe to the more esoteric conspiracy theories.

How would it be possible to ensure that all times all people touching upon the Case - either in an Investigative capacity, Political capacity, "Diplomatic" capacity, Journalistic capacity etc. etc. were at all times on message?

The simple answer is that it is not possible.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  pennylane on Fri 6 Jan - 13:01

The End Is Nigh wrote:This "honest cop" business is why I don't subscribe to the more esoteric conspiracy theories.

How would it be possible to ensure that all times all people touching upon the Case - either in an Investigative capacity, Political capacity, "Diplomatic" capacity, Journalistic capacity etc. etc.were at all times on message.

Not possible.

But they weren't all 'on message' where they. In the beginning a diplomat warned the government about the McCanns not cooperating with the PJ, coppers have openly shared Amaral's belief that the McCanns were involved, journalists and politicans too have spoken out against the pair from time to time...... but they have all been hauled quickly back into line via their superiors or Carter Ruck threats, or actual lawsuits.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Guest on Fri 6 Jan - 13:05

Fair point.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  gillyspot on Fri 6 Jan - 13:17

pennylane wrote:
The End Is Nigh wrote:This "honest cop" business is why I don't subscribe to the more esoteric conspiracy theories.

How would it be possible to ensure that all times all people touching upon the Case - either in an Investigative capacity, Political capacity, "Diplomatic" capacity, Journalistic capacity etc. etc.were at all times on message.

Not possible.

But they weren't all 'on message' where they. In the beginning a diplomat warned the government about the McCanns not cooperating with the PJ, coppers have openly shared Amaral's belief that the McCanns were involved, journalists and politicans too have spoken out against the pair from time to time...... but they have all been hauled quickly back into line via their superiors or Carter Ruck threats, or actual lawsuits.

Which is the problem Pennylane. Even if an honest copper wants the truth to get out so emails evidence to the press. They won't print it for fear of being Carter-Rucked by the McCanns. Lets hope the "honest copper" sends information to this forum or another one like it so we can share it with the world. I for one won't be scared to share it.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  pennylane on Fri 6 Jan - 13:30

gillyspot wrote:
pennylane wrote:
The End Is Nigh wrote:This "honest cop" business is why I don't subscribe to the more esoteric conspiracy theories.

How would it be possible to ensure that all times all people touching upon the Case - either in an Investigative capacity, Political capacity, "Diplomatic" capacity, Journalistic capacity etc. etc.were at all times on message.

Not possible.

But they weren't all 'on message' where they. In the beginning a diplomat warned the government about the McCanns not cooperating with the PJ, coppers have openly shared Amaral's belief that the McCanns were involved, journalists and politicans too have spoken out against the pair from time to time...... but they have all been hauled quickly back into line via their superiors or Carter Ruck threats, or actual lawsuits.

Which is the problem Pennylane. Even if an honest copper wants the truth to get out so emails evidence to the press. They won't print it for fear of being Carter-Rucked by the McCanns. Lets hope the "honest copper" sends information to this forum or another one like it so we can share it with the world. I for one won't be scared to share it.

The path of a whistle blower is fraught with perils and dangers... and that is precisely how the government intends it to be!

And what of the three policemen that allegedly "committed suicide" within weeks of each other.... One wonders what was really behind their deaths, and what (if any) signal was being sent out to others.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  NoStone on Fri 6 Jan - 13:33

gillyspot wrote:
pennylane wrote:
The End Is Nigh wrote:This "honest cop" business is why I don't subscribe to the more esoteric conspiracy theories.

How would it be possible to ensure that all times all people touching upon the Case - either in an Investigative capacity, Political capacity, "Diplomatic" capacity, Journalistic capacity etc. etc.were at all times on message.

Not possible.

But they weren't all 'on message' where they. In the beginning a diplomat warned the government about the McCanns not cooperating with the PJ, coppers have openly shared Amaral's belief that the McCanns were involved, journalists and politicans too have spoken out against the pair from time to time...... but they have all been hauled quickly back into line via their superiors or Carter Ruck threats, or actual lawsuits.

Which is the problem Pennylane. Even if an honest copper wants the truth to get out so emails evidence to the press. They won't print it for fear of being Carter-Rucked by the McCanns. Lets hope the "honest copper" sends information to this forum or another one like it so we can share it with the world. I for one won't be scared to share it.

Yes Gillyspot - but at the same time copy in the person that deserves the reward money - Amaral (chokes - can you imagine them having to pay him out!! ) also copy Pat Brown, PJ, Japanese TV stations (on the basis that it would take CR some days to write 'libel' in Japanese) Lord Leveson, Amazon and finally cc:- Drs Mc, Auntie Phil, Mr Kennedy, LP and the NHS - that should do the trick!!!

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Oldartform on Fri 6 Jan - 14:39

I wouldn`t completely discount a conspiracy - look at the Holly Grieg case. As far as I know, justice has not been achieved because of a giant cover up. The BBC wouldn`t broadcast a programme about it because of a block from higher eschelons. What if there is something so fearful at the root of it that even people in high places are scared?

And if you did have undeniable evidence - who could you trust to share it with? Goncalo, yes. But even relaying it through forums could get everyone in a lot of trouble and the source would soon be found and dealt with.

Wouldn`t people `in the know` come on forums and drop a few hints?


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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Guest on Fri 6 Jan - 14:44

That is a very good point, oldart. If you had proof - undeniable, rock solid proof - of who was responsible for Maddie's disappearance - who would you trust to give it to? If you just dropped wee hints on a forum, they way things are now, you'd soon be hounded out by pros, or dismissed as a troll by antis. Even if you actually went to Portugal and delivered it right into Goncalo Amaral's hands, you'd still have no guarantee that even he would be taken seriously.

As an aside, a friend of mine who worked for BP caught them doing some minorly illegal stuff and reported them to the DTI. BP found out who it was and sacked him, and he had real trouble getting another job after that as the word had gone round that he was a troublemaker. The case is just coming up for review now and that's been nearly six years.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Oldartform on Fri 6 Jan - 14:57

Iris - yes, it is troubling - there is no where you could go. I suppose you could spread it around on twitter or facebook so the whole world knew, but it would still be quashed by the powers that be.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Oldartform on Fri 6 Jan - 15:43

I`m hoping SYs visit to Metodo3 and taking 30 boxes of files maybe linked to the weird antics of Marcos Correia. Goncalo is bringing a case against him (another case for February) for defamation and hopefully MCs links to Metodo3 will become apparent. I`m hoping SY have already got wind of dodgey goings on with the Meotod3 company. They must wonder why every organisation the McCanns have dealt with is dodgey.

Lots of cases coming up in February - Goncalo -v- McCanns; Goncalo -v- Marcos Correia plus Pat Brown will be in Portugal to start digging and I read somewhere that Tony Bennett has a case coming up in February (can`t find it now).

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  matthew on Fri 6 Jan - 15:59

(and in the following order of primacy);

The Portuguese Law Enforcement agencies.
UK Law Enforcement agencies,
Other private investigative agencies/staff and organisations.

Seems metodo 3 were last on the list...now to go through all the files & then..... BOOM.....hopefully

A Cowley doesn't live too far from me...seems he spent more on his pigeons than looking for M

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Panda on Fri 6 Jan - 16:05

I think no matter how much incrminating evidence SY find , if it was enough to charge the McCanns the PJ would have arrested them
in Portugal because as the Judge said "show me the body".

The McCanns can certainly be caught out for lying and the mobile phone calls are incriminating but this doesn"t answer the question
on what happened to Madeleine and if she is dead, where is her body? I think that is the only way the McCanns could be charged.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Guest on Fri 6 Jan - 16:16

But is it possible under mutual agreements and conventions (of which I am wholly ignorant) for any suspects to be charged in UK under UK Law despite at least some of the offences having patently occurred in Portugal?

If SY have a wide and comprehensive picture, then it may be that the Madeleine affair as most understand it is only one (albeit major) component of a wider episode.


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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  NoStone on Fri 6 Jan - 16:26

LP are supposed to have an ongoing investigation into this case. Anyone, politicians, our Queen and St George who interferes in that investigation can be charged with preventing the course of Justice. How many MP's/Lords etc have gone to jail for lessor offences over the years? Politicians who have 'dirty hands' are particularly vulnerable - however well they might think themselves protected by the police or the security forces or whoever because - they are politicians and as such, there is always someone willing to stick the boot in and knock them off their perch - other politicians!!

This used to be done through the media who were always game for a scoop. Given the 'gag' on the press - any whistle blower in this case would have to take a different route - an annonymous brown envelope to Wikileaks perhaps??

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Panda on Fri 6 Jan - 16:35

TEIN I don"t think the UK. could charge the McCanns with anything to do with what happened in Portugal regarding Madeleine ,

but if a substantial Donor to the Fund, or enough people who donated small sums decided to take action, the McCanns could certainly be sued for Fraud.......there is no way they paid Halligen £300,000!!!!

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  T4two on Fri 6 Jan - 16:50

The End Is Nigh wrote:But is it possible under mutual agreements and conventions (of which I am wholly ignorant) for any suspects to be charged in UK under UK Law despite at least some of the offences having patently occurred in Portugal?

If SY have a wide and comprehensive picture, then it may be that the Madeleine affair as most understand it is only one (albeit major) component of a wider episode.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_jurisdiction

Quote: "In English law, where murder and manslaughter are concerned, the English court has jurisdiction over offences committed abroad, if it was committed by a British citizen (see section 9 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and section 3 of the British Nationality Act 1948)."

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

Post  Guest on Fri 6 Jan - 17:19

Useful - thanks.

And there is also the question of Fraud, which Panda mentioned (Ta.)

And then, in the same vein as Rumsfeld fellow mooted, there are the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns as regards any other possible offences.

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Re: Remit for Operation Grange now online

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