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What is a pro or an anti?

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What is a pro or an anti?

Post  marxman on Tue 17 Jan - 22:22

http://mcscamming.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=7 blog

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  Guest on Wed 18 Jan - 8:06

Too strident and emotive for my taste, despite the essence being pretty much bang on.

I've never really gone for this Pro/Anti stuff as it's divisive and distracts from the important task of ascertaining what actually did happen to Madeleine.

There is also no suggestion in that article of the possibility that the neglect issue might, of itself, be at least partly a fabrication designed to divert attention from whatever the real (and possibly even more sinister) story is.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  T4two on Wed 18 Jan - 12:34

The End Is Nigh wrote:Too strident and emotive for my taste, despite the essence being pretty much bang on.

I've never really gone for this Pro/Anti stuff as it's divisive and distracts from the important task of ascertaining what actually did happen to Madeleine.

There is also no suggestion in that article of the possibility that the neglect issue might, of itself, be at least partly a fabrication designed to divert attention from whatever the real (and possibly even more sinister) story is.

Yes, the 'if you're not for us you're against us' attitude has dominated since quite early on and is, as far as I can judge, a desired effect of the PR and social network meddling strategy to shut down any discussion which does not comply with the 'official' version. I've always had difficulty with that 'official' version, because it has constantly changed so much over the years. If I were investigating this case I would definitely pursue the possibility that the childeren all slept in one room monitored by the Payne baby monitor, apart from Madeleine of course. IMO there are sufficient indicators to warrant closer investigation of this. For example the constant references to checking on Madeleine and not as one would expect, checking on the children or, checking on Madeleine and the twins etc. or the fact that the cots in the bedroom contained no bedding and had probably been placed there as part of the staging scene to give the impression that the twins had been sleeping there. Apart from which, with all those beds and cots in the bedroom there wasn't room to swing a cat. Is there any truth in the rumours that Payne has patented a new kind of baby monitor which is reliable up to a distance of 50 miles. Means that parents have a wider choice of venue for eating, drinking and having a good time.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  Guest on Wed 18 Jan - 12:57

[quote="T4two"]
The End Is Nigh wrote:Is there any truth in the rumours that Payne has patented a new kind of baby monitor which is reliable up to a distance of 50 miles. Means that parents have a wider choice of venue for eating, drinking and having a good time.



Possibly, but it is intermittent in operation and prone to interference: The prototype caused shutters to pop open and closed every time someone said "salut"

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  T4two on Wed 18 Jan - 13:09

Quote TEIN:

The prototype caused shutters to pop open and closed every time someone said "salut"

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind...

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 13:11

The description of the divide is too much over the top. I have always felt that the McCanns were culpable for their childcare practices on holiday and so have never been a 'pro', but I do not understand the extremes of belief on the 'anti' side.

The high emotion support for the McCanns on one side is unfathomable, but so is the rampant paranoia and anger about them on the other. I do not feel warmth to either camp and do not feel that either 'side' has a good description of the moral and personal actions of all the people involved.

The reality of the situation is that many people neglect their children and are not prosecuted- it depends on the whole situation; I know this as I have worked closely with Social Services on child neglect matters.

The reality of the situation is that many crimes are committed and not brought to justice for a variety of reasons- lack of evidence, public interest etc.

As the two sides drift further apart and ignore, dismiss or ridicule contradictory circumstances, the 'pros' and 'antis' start to resemble each other more than they resemble the average member of the public.

I can see no formal end to the McCann case and have become resigned to it continuing as an unsolved case in much the same manner as the Ben Needham case has become historic and less emotive.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  pennylane on Wed 18 Jan - 13:53

jodel wrote:The description of the divide is too much over the top. I have always felt that the McCanns were culpable for their childcare practices on holiday and so have never been a 'pro', but I do not understand the extremes of belief on the 'anti' side.

The high emotion support for the McCanns on one side is unfathomable, but so is the rampant paranoia and anger about them on the other. I do not feel warmth to either camp and do not feel that either 'side' has a good description of the moral and personal actions of all the people involved.

The reality of the situation is that many people neglect their children and are not prosecuted- it depends on the whole situation; I know this as I have worked closely with Social Services on child neglect matters.

The reality of the situation is that many crimes are committed and not brought to justice for a variety of reasons- lack of evidence, public interest etc.

As the two sides drift further apart and ignore, dismiss or ridicule contradictory circumstances, the 'pros' and 'antis' start to resemble each other more than they resemble the average member of the public.

I can see no formal end to the McCann case and have become resigned to it continuing as an unsolved case in much the same manner as the Ben Needham case has become historic and less emotive.

Welcome Jodel!

What does your close work with social services bring you to conclude about blood and cadaver dogs marking a crime scene from whence a child has been recently allegedly abducted?

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  kitti on Wed 18 Jan - 14:06

The evidence isn't their to bring this to trial....one thing knowing the mccanns are responsible but that doesnt get a conviction without evidence and GM knows that.



The dogs have proved there was a cadaver in apt 5a and there was no death in that said apt before or after the mccanns rented it......there is a child missing but there is no proof it was Madeleine even though the Initial report was that it was a 100% match to Madeleine and bodily fluids and also a 15 out off 19 markers match to her aswell.....that's no enough to get a conviction as far as the mccanns are concerned, any other person would be languishing in a cell by now.


The reason the mccanns are walking is because they can afford the best lawyers that YOUR money can buy.....don't give money and things will change, things are changing, people are waking up and the newspapers won't print anything about them so they can't sue for libel and that is why she wrote a book....next it will be a film....mark my words, they have no choice, they NEED to save their hides.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 14:07

pennylane wrote:
jodel wrote:The description of the divide is too much over the top. I have always felt that the McCanns were culpable for their childcare practices on holiday and so have never been a 'pro', but I do not understand the extremes of belief on the 'anti' side.

The high emotion support for the McCanns on one side is unfathomable, but so is the rampant paranoia and anger about them on the other. I do not feel warmth to either camp and do not feel that either 'side' has a good description of the moral and personal actions of all the people involved.

The reality of the situation is that many people neglect their children and are not prosecuted- it depends on the whole situation; I know this as I have worked closely with Social Services on child neglect matters.

The reality of the situation is that many crimes are committed and not brought to justice for a variety of reasons- lack of evidence, public interest etc.

As the two sides drift further apart and ignore, dismiss or ridicule contradictory circumstances, the 'pros' and 'antis' start to resemble each other more than they resemble the average member of the public.

I can see no formal end to the McCann case and have become resigned to it continuing as an unsolved case in much the same manner as the Ben Needham case has become historic and less emotive.

Welcome Jodel!

What does your close work with social services bring you to conclude about blood and cadaver dogs marking a crime scene from whence a child has been recently allegedly abducted?

Never have worked with dogs but I understand they are usually seen as indicating lines of enquiry rather than evidence itself- certainly in the UK.

I was re-reading my post above and realised that I have made similar posts on politics sites- I am politically centrist from UK point of view- socially conservative but believe in a limited state but also with support for the most impaired in society. When people are looking for signs to hit out at I get accused of being a tory apologist by Labour supporters and a left wing hanger on by Conservatives. That world view is more common than we may think.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  kitti on Wed 18 Jan - 14:16

It was an indication that someone had died and there is a child missing and know one had died before or after the mccanns rented the apt....


We know the dogs are there to indicate whether or not a cadaver was in place and they proved there was in apt 5a and in the hired car and we know in some cases where there is not enough evidence to prosecute they need a body but this case to me has been handed on a plate to a prosecutor and STILL the mccanns manage to walk free.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  pennylane on Wed 18 Jan - 14:17

kitti wrote:It was an indication that someone had died and there is a child missing and know one had died before or after the mccanns rented the apt....


We know the dogs are there to indicate whether or not a cadaver was in place and they proved there was in apt 5a and in the hired car and we know in some cases where there is not enough evidence to prosecute they need a body but this case to me has been handed on a plate to a prosecutor and STILL the mccanns manage to walk free.

Indeed, kitti.

A frightening and damning "indication" under the very suspicious circumstances surrounding this case!

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 14:19

kitti wrote:It was an indication that someone had died and there is a child missing and know one had died before or after the mccanns rented the apt....


We know the dogs are there to indicate whether or not a cadaver was in place and they proved there was in apt 5a and in the hired car and we know in some cases where there is not enough evidence to prosecute they need a body but this case to me has been handed on a plate to a prosecutor and STILL the mccanns manage to walk free.

Why do you think that is?

As the dogs' responses are not admissible in court as evidence, what could the prosecutors have used to prove a case of homicide of any sort?

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  pennylane on Wed 18 Jan - 14:25

T4two wrote:Quote TEIN:

The prototype caused shutters to pop open and closed every time someone said "salut"

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind...

OMG!

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  kitti on Wed 18 Jan - 14:29

Jodel....a body isn't necessarilly needed in all cases....the dogs have proved that very recently so perhaps YOU can tell ME why the mccanns are still walking?


Cadaver scent on Kate mccanns clothes.....on a red child's t shirt (perhaps she took Sean to to work when she signed the death certificates along with cuddle cat) ...in the boot off the car along with the left hand side off the car, key fob, flowerbed, wardrobe, behind the sofa.....blood on the Walls and between the floor tiles.


YOU tell me WHY they haven't been at least arrrested on suspicion....?

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  kitti on Wed 18 Jan - 14:30

Don't forget, there was suspicion off a death BEFORE the dogs were bought In.....the dogs proved that suspicion .

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  margaret on Wed 18 Jan - 14:31

jodel wrote: I know this as I have worked closely with Social Services on child neglect matters.


Social services eh? Do you think the McCanns neglected their 3 children night after night jodel?

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 14:36

margaret wrote:
jodel wrote: I know this as I have worked closely with Social Services on child neglect matters.


Social services eh? Do you think the McCanns neglected their 3 children night after night jodel?

I think they acted in a neglectful manner and that it was inexcusable.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 14:39

kitti wrote:Jodel....a body isn't necessarilly needed in all cases....the dogs have proved that very recently so perhaps YOU can tell ME why the mccanns are still walking?


Cadaver scent on Kate mccanns clothes.....on a red child's t shirt (perhaps she took Sean to to work when she signed the death certificates along with cuddle cat) ...in the boot off the car along with the left hand side off the car, key fob, flowerbed, wardrobe, behind the sofa.....blood on the Walls and between the floor tiles.


YOU tell me WHY they haven't been at least arrrested on suspicion....?

They were made arguidos which is similar to what would happen if they were arrested under UK law for questioning.

IIRC According to the Prosecutor, there was insufficient evidence of criminality to bring charges for homicide.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  Autumn on Wed 18 Jan - 14:42


The reality of the situation is that many people neglect their children and are not prosecuted- it depends on the whole situation; I know this as I have worked closely with Social Services on child neglect matters.

Hi Jodel

As we already have laws in place making it illegal to leave very young children alone, as someone who has worked closely with Social Services, perhaps you could explain why the law is not enforced in this area. You state that it depends on the 'whole situation' but I'm struggling to understand in what situation it could ever be considered acceptable to leave young children alone.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  kitti on Wed 18 Jan - 14:44

'insufficient'....very significant word, jodel.....whilst you walk back to the dark side perhaps you could pass your Findings to your mates and stipulate that 'insufficient' doesnt mean 'no evidence'.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 14:45

Autumn wrote:
The reality of the situation is that many people neglect their children and are not prosecuted- it depends on the whole situation; I know this as I have worked closely with Social Services on child neglect matters.

Hi Jodel

As we already have laws in place making it illegal to leave very young children alone, as someone who has worked closely with Social Services, perhaps you could explain why the law is not enforced in this area. You state that it depends on the 'whole situation' but I'm struggling to understand in what situation it could ever be considered acceptable to leave young children alone.

In the McCann's case they could not be prosecuted for neglect under UK law as that law only applies to acts happening within the jurisdiction of the UK.

The law is often enforced using administrative methods- placing on at risk register, increased input from Social Services, Education etc. Only a small minority of the worst cases get to court as it is too expensive and less effective than case-work intervention.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 14:46

kitti wrote:'insufficient'....very significant word, jodel.....whilst you walk back to the dark side perhaps you could pass your Findings to your mates and stipulate that 'insufficient' doesnt mean 'no evidence'.

I did not say that it was 'not evidence', I said that it was not acceptable in court hearings as evidence; there is a difference.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  amber on Wed 18 Jan - 14:55

shocking with names but Jodels style of writing reminds me of a recent poster - just cant remember his/her name.


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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  jodel on Wed 18 Jan - 15:21

amber wrote:shocking with names but Jodels style of writing reminds me of a recent poster - just cant remember his/her name.


I haven't posted on this for a couple of years now. I was on the Mirror Forum, Sky Forum, Bar Arguido and the 3 Arguidos back in the day- never a prolific poster and always a fence sitter. I only drifted back a couple of weeks ago when the Leveson enquiry had the McCanns giving evidence.

I have always had problems from both pros and antis as I have no strong feelings about what really happened from homicide by the McCanns through to straight abduction, so I am anaethma to both sets of strong believers.

I am sure that my IP can be checked (will have been checked) by admin and it will show that I have not posted here before- I use Vodafone on the move (which has no regular IP) and Sky at home which has a fixed IP.

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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

Post  Oldartform on Wed 18 Jan - 16:00

I can`t see any evidence of hostility from the new poster. Maybe I`m missing something.





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Re: What is a pro or an anti?

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