Missing Madeleine
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Pat Brown

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Wintabells on Wed 7 Mar - 20:10

tigger wrote:I think the rocks are way too dangerous to leave a body...

I don't see why they'd have a problem with someone finding the body, so long as it wasn't in 5a. Everything could be blamed on the 'abductor'. In fact, I think that's what they hoped would happen and it was only when it wasn't found that they moved it (either to be found or to provide a final resting place).

Ok, I guess there may have been an issue with time of death. If the child had died at 6.00pm and they're claiming she was 'taken' sometime between 9.10pm and 10pm, and her body was discovered during the intial police search, maybe there'd be some way of knowing she'd been dead for longer than say 2 hours, but I'm not sure how exact a science this kind of thing is. They'd know, though.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  ELI on Wed 7 Mar - 21:02

Wintabells wrote:
tigger wrote:I think the rocks are way too dangerous to leave a body...

I don't see why they'd have a problem with someone finding the body, so long as it wasn't in 5a. Everything could be blamed on the 'abductor'. In fact, I think that's what they hoped would happen and it was only when it wasn't found that they moved it (either to be found or to provide a final resting place).

Ok, I guess there may have been an issue with time of death. If the child had died at 6.00pm and they're claiming she was 'taken' sometime between 9.10pm and 10pm, and her body was discovered during the intial police search, maybe there'd be some way of knowing she'd been dead for longer than say 2 hours, but I'm not sure how exact a science this kind of thing is. They'd know, though.

Body temperature falls to the temperature of the surroundings at a rate of about one-and-a-half degrees per hour, though certain conditions can affect this rate, so it's likely a coroner would be able have gauged the time of death.

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What do hospital doctors normally do with a body?

Post  comperedna on Thu 8 Mar - 14:08

However shocked those who may have discovered a child's body could have been, I think numbness would have kicked in, together with a fair few automatic reactions. If a body had to be hidden... various speculations on here as to the possible reasons... it could be that the solution would be to do what what hospital doctors routinely do with a body on the ward: it is covered from sight and then whisked away to the morgue where it is put in a fridge. If it has to be kept for a longer, or for an indeterminate time, it is put in a freezer. I've said this before in several different threads. I do not think hiding it anywhere in the countryside 'out there' is anything but far too risky. As for hiding, or temporary burial, on the beach, or disposing of it in the sea, I think both are bad ideas for different reasons: the sea often gives up 'parcels, however well weighted', and a temporary beach burial or hiding place... the hiders could have been seen doing it, and it requires very early removal to somewhere safer anyway. IMNSHO the considerable disturbance of a beach and sand or rocks required, would be difficult to conceal. Pat Brown may well think otherwise. Arrangements by phone with an utterly trusted local person would be necessary for a much more secure, and very cold, hiding place for a well wrapped package to be found. Then there is always the possibility of its being an abduction of a live child after all, as the parents claim... Me? I think that is less likely. However, alive or dead, somebody took that poor child out of the flat.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  mossman on Thu 8 Mar - 19:29

Do we have any information on departure times etc of tour buses in the area on the night in question ? You know how on these package type holidays a bus goes from apartment block to apartment block to pick up the guests and bring them to the airport for their flights home. Very often in my experience these occur at all different times of the day and night.

One theory I came up with when thinking about how I would have done it is this. Madeleine falls, has accident etc. She is found dead or else they try to revive her. This fails. Body is placed in the gear bag and in the wardrobe. Bag is left outside in the bushes for pick up by an unknown person. It could have been placed there during one of the previous checks. Then bag is taken and brought onto one of theses buses by the unknown person, as if going to the airport. Body in bag is then brought to its hiding place, i.e. fridge, until later when it is moved in the Megane.

Far fetched I know, but just something that occurred to me.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  LJC on Thu 8 Mar - 20:57

mossman wrote:Do we have any information on departure times etc of tour buses in the area on the night in question ? You know how on these package type holidays a bus goes from apartment block to apartment block to pick up the guests and bring them to the airport for their flights home. Very often in my experience these occur at all different times of the day and night.

One theory I came up with when thinking about how I would have done it is this. Madeleine falls, has accident etc. She is found dead or else they try to revive her. This fails. Body is placed in the gear bag and in the wardrobe. Bag is left outside in the bushes for pick up by an unknown person. It could have been placed there during one of the previous checks. Then bag is taken and brought onto one of theses buses by the unknown person, as if going to the airport. Body in bag is then brought to its hiding place, i.e. fridge, until later when it is moved in the Megane.

Far fetched I know, but just something that occurred to me.

Far fetched? No not particularly. Whatever happened to Madeleine, whether it be the McCanns version or the opposite way of thinking, whatever happened it was far fetched, but how many times have things really occurred in life and we say to ourselves, you could not make that up. It happens with me all of the time, one thing goes wrong, then something else, etc. and the day goes from bad to worse, but when I tell people they look at me as if to say, yeah right, because it sounds far fetched. When it comes to studying past murder cases and cases where people disappear, some of them are unbelievable when everything comes to light. Nobody sounds more far fetched than the McCanns, with their ever changing scenarios, ever changing descriptions of abductors and some of the events afterwards that seem to engulf them. Why then should we feel its far fetched to air an idea. You may be onto something, Mr Amaral suspects a bag was used and, thinking about it, that bag would have to disappear quickly as well, although the police did photograph a bag which then went missing, but who knows there may be more than one bag which I suspect there was.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Loopdaloop on Fri 9 Mar - 22:14



Just a little question about Portuguese culture (as I know we have some residents on this board)

What normally happens to the family pet? In England they are generally buried in the garden or cremated (I remember that the police searched a pet crematoriam in Porugal at one point, I even remember the papers suggesting that she may have been cremated there.

However; This dog grave... (one of Pats phoros) you would have to dig it up wouldn't you to make sure that its definitely a dog.... ?
I wonder if anyone ever checked? Is 'Rex' A popular name for a dog in portugal?

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Guest on Fri 9 Mar - 22:20

Well "Rex" literally means "King" and is definitely male, so no chance of it being Madeleine related - that would be "Regina".

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Bobsy on Fri 9 Mar - 22:25

Loopdaloop wrote:

Just a little question about Portuguese culture (as I know we have some residents on this board)

What normally happens to the family pet? In England they are generally buried in the garden or cremated (I remember that the police searched a pet crematoriam in Porugal at one point, I even remember the papers suggesting that she may have been cremated there.

However; This dog grave... (one of Pats phoros) you would have to dig it up wouldn't you to make sure that its definitely a dog.... ?
I wonder if anyone ever checked? Is 'Rex' A popular name for a dog in portugal?
Hi Loopdaloop. I would imagine that Rex was the dog of an expat and that the place where he is buried was on the route of his favourite walk.
I live in Spain and had a beloved dog cremated last september and it cost 250euro and we have her ashes. If you cannot find that sort of money and live in an apartment or house without garden it is difficult to know what to do with the body of a much loved pet. If visiting a vet for the animal to be put to sleep then they would dispose of the body in a group cremation. This also is expensive though so again maybe a reason for buriel.
My one problem with that though is that the ground is rock hard and it would require a pick and spades to dig any depth. I do notice from that photograph that there are a lot of stones to create a barrier to wild animals.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Loopdaloop on Fri 9 Mar - 22:29

I just thought that it looked like a good final resting place for the body of a small child...
Its also a 'grave' so people can visit it. Someone must have buried something there even if the ground is hard, as you mentioned the stones are there to guard against wildlife. If it was just a memorial, then they could have done that at home!


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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Bobsy on Fri 9 Mar - 22:38

Loopdaloop wrote:I just thought that it looked like a good final resting place for the body of a small child...
Its also a 'grave' so people can visit it. Someone must have buried something there even if the ground is hard, as you mentioned the stones are there to guard against wildlife. If it was just a memorial, then they could have done that at home!

Yes I agree it is a grave and people can visit it, but I dare bet it isn't more than a couple of feet deep and that it contains a precious pet called Rex.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Angelique on Fri 9 Mar - 22:47

Loopdaloop wrote:I just thought that it looked like a good final resting place for the body of a small child...
Its also a 'grave' so people can visit it. Someone must have buried something there even if the ground is hard, as you mentioned the stones are there to guard against wildlife. If it was just a memorial, then they could have done that at home!


Call me suspicious - but even I am a little curious Loopdaloop - like they have said - if its right in front of you you don't question it!

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Guest on Fri 9 Mar - 22:50

Yes I agree it is a grave and people can visit it, but I dare bet it isn't more than a couple of feet deep and that it contains a precious pet called Rex.

It also looks very well cared for, presumably by somebody who lives locally.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Loopdaloop on Fri 9 Mar - 23:09

Angelique wrote:

Call me suspicious - but even I am a little curious Loopdaloop - like they have said - if its right in front of you you don't question it!

They do say the best places to hide things are in plain sight don't they!

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  T4two on Fri 9 Mar - 23:24

Loopdaloop wrote:
Angelique wrote:

Call me suspicious - but even I am a little curious Loopdaloop - like they have said - if its right in front of you you don't question it!

They do say the best places to hide things are in plain sight don't they!

Hmmm - and they'd hardly be so brass-necked as to use the correct name. Maybe not this particular place but something along these lines...

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  interested on Fri 9 Mar - 23:35

Now that the subject has been brought up, I can understand a marker with the dog's(?) name, but I do wonder why the "cross". We have tenderly buried beloved pets in our backyard, but it would never occur to me to add a cross because that usually marks the grave of a Christian human.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 9 Mar - 23:49

interested wrote:Now that the subject has been brought up, I can understand a marker with the dog's(?) name, but I do wonder why the "cross". We have tenderly buried beloved pets in our backyard, but it would never occur to me to add a cross because that usually marks the grave of a Christian human.

If it's the pet of a Christian, I find nothing weird about it. I would probably do the same and I'm not even exactly the religious type.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Guest on Sat 10 Mar - 9:38

interested wrote:Now that the subject has been brought up, I can understand a marker with the dog's(?) name, but I do wonder why the "cross". We have tenderly buried beloved pets in our backyard, but it would never occur to me to add a cross because that usually marks the grave of a Christian human.

I've seen lots of pets' graves with wee crosses, and I don't think it's that strange. We like to "humanize" our pets, we find it cute when they do human-type things (I have a cat who turns on the TV when we're out) and we give them human-like attributes - how many dogs have you seen wearing neck scarves, for example? So it's not that strange to "humanize" a much-loved pet when it's buried.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 10 Mar - 9:46

Iris wrote:
interested wrote:Now that the subject has been brought up, I can understand a marker with the dog's(?) name, but I do wonder why the "cross". We have tenderly buried beloved pets in our backyard, but it would never occur to me to add a cross because that usually marks the grave of a Christian human.

I've seen lots of pets' graves with wee crosses, and I don't think it's that strange. We like to "humanize" our pets, we find it cute when they do human-type things (I have a cat who turns on the TV when we're out) and we give them human-like attributes - how many dogs have you seen wearing neck scarves, for example? So it's not that strange to "humanize" a much-loved pet when it's buried.

We do 'humanize,' our pets. At least I tend to. I see my two female cats as being like little kids. One will come and indicate that I should follow her. She makes a sound like 'hello,' - 'aaaa' oooooo,' is what it sounds like and she'll show me things like her sister's got her bed!

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  T4two on Sat 10 Mar - 11:08

Are these pet graves with little crosses quite a common sight in the Portuguese countryside? I do remember years ago noticing lots of crosses and bunches of flowers at the roadside in Germany where fatal accidents had occurred. This was ages before the practice became commonplace in the UK and it prompted me to ask my German friends why they buried people at the side of the road. Needless to say this type of English humour did not go down particularly well. Nevertheless, the point that Loopdaloop has raised is interesting and it's a possibility worth considering.

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  matthew on Sun 11 Mar - 2:23

http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.com/2012/03/criminal-profiling-topic-of-day-find.html

Pat was interested in gerrys phone pings:with thanks to Hideho- http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Where-was-Madeleine-hidden/Strange-Activities-End-July-Beginning-August-1-922085.html

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Guest on Sun 11 Mar - 10:04

matthew wrote:http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.com/2012/03/criminal-profiling-topic-of-day-find.html

Pat was interested in gerrys phone pings:with thanks to Hideho- http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Where-was-Madeleine-hidden/Strange-Activities-End-July-Beginning-August-1-922085.html


Well, well, well.

Pat is getting more specific than hitherto and the caution of earlier blog entries seems to have been cast to the wind!

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  Annabel on Sun 11 Mar - 10:07

Criminal Profiling Topic of the Day: Find the Body and Prove We Killed Her


No body, no case. While this is not always so, it is quite rare to see homicide or manslaughter charges levied against someone unless there is exceptionally strong evidence that a person has been killed and there is also substantial proof of how they were done in and who did it. As it stands today, we have no such level of proof in the case of missing Madeleine McCann; what we have is a child who hasn't shown up in five years, no evidence of abduction, alerts from cadaver dogs, and very concerning behavior and statements from the McCanns and their friends and family.

Let me reiterate; I find no proof of abduction nor proof that Maddie is alive. I believe the evidence more likely supports the theory that Maddie died in the vacation apartment and her body was removed from there. If the cadaver dogs are accurate in their alerts that a body was in the apartment on May 3rd, 2007 and was moved in the hire car that the McCanns rented weeks later, then the body was hidden locally and moved to another location at a later date. If we follow this theory, the following scenario is the one I believe most likely, having now spent time in Portugal and Praia da Luz.

Following physical and behavioral evidence, I would theorize that Maddie died in the apartment and lay behind the couch until she was discovered. With panic ensuing, the body would most likely have been moved by Gerry in a hurry to a location far enough away from the apartment to not immediately have suspicion fall upon the parents. This location would not be very secure, but because of the very limited time frame Gerry would have had to work with, Maddie would have been simply hidden in the weeds, or under an object or in an open isolated structure. Then, I believe with an hour or so to work with in the early hours of the morning, Gerry may have decided it would behoove him to find a better hiding location and this I believe is most likely to be in a gully on the side of the Rocha Negra, accessible from the beach and full of loose dirt, stones, and rocks that would allow for a quick burial (see previous blog; On Moving and Hiding Bodies).

Then, when Kate told the PJ that she had a dream about Maddie's body being on a slab of rock and the cadaver dogs were heading to Praia da Luz, Gerry might have decided it would be better to find a location away from the town where she would never be found. Some think the body was stored in a freezer at some point but I find this unlikely. If there is some evidence in the vehicle of a body having been on ice, I would be more likely to believe it was literally on ice in the boot. In other words, ice was placed in the boot in a bag or bags as a method of keeping the body cold during transport. Taking the body to an inside location, storing it in a large freezer, and then moving it yet again seems like an awful lot of extra moving of the body and, usually, a person works in the direction of having the body disappear and doesn't take the risk of bringing the body closer t him and keeping it around for discovery. Bodies found in freezers or kept in freezers usually have that location as the first place of rest, not an intermediary one.

There is also speculation that Gerry and Kate might have had a contingent of helpers outside of the Tapas 7 which I also find hard to accept. The more people one brings in on a criminal undertaking, the more likely it is that someone will open their mouth, even accidentally. Gerry is smart enough to know this is an unacceptable danger (any of the Tapas 7 knowing anything is bad enough but this may have been unavoidable and they may have more at stake to keep them quiet than people uninvolved in the evening of May 3rd and previous days and nights). He is also controlling enough to want to take care of things as best he can by himself.

Before coming to Portugal, I entertained a number of possibilities: the Huelva baths in Spain where the McCanns went just as the cadaver dogs were arriving, removal back to the UK, and incineration. Each had its interesting possibilities but each also seemed a bit too difficult to accomplish (although by no means am I saying such actions would have been impossible) and it is a pretty good rule of thumb that people do what is easier to manage and simpler to pull off. Because of this, I came to two more probable conclusions, both involving Gerry driving the body to a location he felt was secluded and unlikely to be discovered. I was particularly interested in the activities of the McCann in the days before the Huelva trip when Gerry's phone pinged repeatedly in an area to the west of Praia da Luz along the road to Budens, (estre EN125). I also found it interesting that the day he was to leave for Huelva, he was not feeling well, having a bit of an upset stomach. This led me to theorize he could have used that day to move the body or to recover from moving it the day before. I decided when I got to Praia da Luz, I would take a trip down that road to the west and see whether there were any suitable places to lose a body forever.

The first place I looked for was the kind of location for a “proper burial” to occur, a place with some kind of religious significance like an isolated spot in view of a little chapel so that Kate and Gerry could feel they had done right by their daughter, a place they could find again and stop by to spend time with Maddie, to pray for her. Being that Portugal is a heavily Catholic country, I imagined there might be dozens of small chapels along the route much as one can find a plethora of little mandirs (temples) in India as one travels down just about any rural road.

Cemetery on Outskirts of Town
Interestingly, I found none to speak of. I found churches but they were all stuck right in the middle of town. I did find a couple of graveyards on the outskirts of town which had curious possibilities in that inside the walls of these small cemeteries, there were quite a few graves with just a mound of dirt over the body rather than a concrete structure; some folks obviously lacked the money to pay for these nice amenities and had to bury their loved ones in a very simple fashion. When they came into more money, they could then top the grave site with a proper tombstone. In theory, if one could access such a location, one could bury a small body in an already dug grave, put back the displaced dirt and no one would be the wiser that the grave contained an extra corpse. Not a bad concept, but these graveyards appeared to be locked and monitored, so one would have to scale the walls to get in. Possible? Yes, but not probable.













So, I found no really good location within the ping area for Gerry to give Maddie a spiritual resting place. I did find an interesting spot, however, that I thought might have stood in nicely as it had a beautiful view which included the Rocha Negra in the distance.

And up at the top of a hill overlooking the spot, there appeared to be a cross which would lend some special religious significance, like God looking down upon Madeleine in her final resting place. This location, the Forte de Almadena, is open to the public down a short road that one can access after dark. During the day, there appear to be times when no one is there.

There are the remains of a fort and, nearby, odd mounds of soft dirt that actually already look like a set of graves. Retired British police officer, PM, and I brought out the metal detector and spade and investigated a number of them.




The metal detector found nothing. Since it was possible Maddie could have been buried in the oft-discussed missing sports bag, I was wanting to see if the detector would find any metal, metal that might be on that bag. If Maddie's body were buried shallowly under the ground in a sports bag, metal rings attaching a strap or metal zippers (although zippers these days are almost all vinyl) could set off the metal detector. Unfortunately, it remained silent.


Then PM dug trenches across the mounds; we found nothing. Then we drove up to look at the cross we saw on the hill; it turned out to be a windsock. So much for the religious significance, although, if we thought it was a cross, so could Gerry.

Does that mean Maddie couldn’t be buried at the Fort? No, it is still possible. There is a bit of land around it that we did not have the time to totally explore. But, then, I found a better place.

Gerry seemed to be on that road west over a period of three days which to date has not been explained. Was he looking and looking for a spot to bury a body? Driving off the main road to see if there was a good place to move Maddie to? PM and I found an excellent place within hours of leaving Praia da Luz, so I see no reason why Gerry couldn’t have found it as well. However, there is no religious significance to this location; it would simply be a great place to hide a body and never have it discovered.

Would he choose this? Part of me fought against it, thinking these parents, especially Kate, would find comfort and some validation as good parents and Christians if they buried Maddie in a religious place of some kind. However, Gerry seems to be quite practical and rather cold and calculating and he simply may have decided, Kate’s feelings be damned, that making sure the body was never found was of paramount importance and they would have to live with it.

Monte do Jose Mestre. This huge, desolate area covers many square metres and is filled with a considerable network of dirt roads. Looking down on the area from atop the highest hill is a row of windmills. Small trees and bushes are scattered throughout and the dirt is not impossible to dig in. Gerry had just returned from England and I wouldn’t be surprised, if he is involved in disposing of Maddie’s body, that he brought a small shovel back with him, one that could be tossed into the bushes when he finished digging the grave or thrown away in a dumpster on the way back to Praia da Luz. If the body is buried out there, it would be unlikely to ever be found unless a large contingent of searchers and dogs descended upon the area and then it would still be pretty lucky if they located a grave. I hope, however, this is done sometime in the future. I would like to know if Maddie is there or not.

Views of Monte do Jose Mestre below.





Criminal Profiler Pat Brown

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  pennylane on Sun 11 Mar - 10:29

Identifying Gerry's phone pings, and taking a metal detector to search that area in the event that the sports bag was used to transport and hide the body. Wow! Looks like Pat really did do some digging around.

I reckon a certain infamous pair will be tearing their hair out when they read this.


Thank you Pat Brown!

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  almostgothic on Sun 11 Mar - 11:00

After this latest flurry of stories, I bet Gezza is done with his hair already!

He's probably ripping at his chest wig by now ...

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Re: Pat Brown

Post  kathybelle on Sun 11 Mar - 11:05

almostgothic wrote:After this latest flurry of stories, I bet Gezza is done with his hair already!

He's probably ripping at his chest wig by now ...


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Re: Pat Brown

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