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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Angelique on Sun 12 Feb - 0:19

Badboy

Will look for it - be back with article.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Angelique on Sun 12 Feb - 0:25

Badboy

It's one of Panda's post on page 2 of this thread:

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t18844p15-new-ec-thread

Re: New EC Thread
  Panda on Wed 1 Feb - 8:02

Greece says there is no need for the EU to monitor its Finance and if the EU insist rioting in Greece will ensue

Portugal is feeling the effect of the Greece crisis because sale of their Bonds are affecting the Yields which are up. The Portugese Prime Minister says
it's debt is sustainable.

Santander , a Spanish Bank made a 98% loss which is very worrying, it may affect their Banks in Britain.

Greek finance Minister says they are one step away from a deal with Bondholders which would mean only a 3% loss. The deadline is 5th Feb.

Schnauble says Greece MUST meet conditions before the tranche can be released .

It is rumoured that Germany wants Greece out but is too cowardly to admit it. If other Countries, ie, Finland, Austria, Norway are so fed up they will
say let Greece default that will be the cue Germany needs. Germany is making it too painful for Greece to remain.

It has to be said, why was Greece not allowed to default over two years ago, they have borrowed so much money they will be in debt for generations
to come, meanwhile Germany has benefitted for a weak Euro caused by this crisis.

Analysts are predicting Greece and Portugal will leave the Euro by the end of the Year.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Angelique on Sun 12 Feb - 0:30

Panda

In answer to why this thread gets so many hits early in the morning - it must be your fiscal acumen - they need to know the latest and your posts/articles are very informative!

I don't know how you manage to find them all but they are brilliant!

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 1:38

Angelique wrote:Panda

In answer to why this thread gets so many hits early in the morning - it must be your fiscal acumen - they need to know the latest and your posts/articles are very informative!

I don't know how you manage to find them all but they are brilliant!

Morning Angelique.....'fiscal acumen' , sounds good but it is information I receive, Investment advisers interviewed etc.

Yes, the interest is increasing , can Europeans access MM? Our lot are usually gone just after midnight , so I assume it is not just browsers, it is those
with a genuine interest in what is happening. Angelique I really think we are in for hard times, but hopefully a new beginning will bring order out of chaos and Society will be different.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 1:59

11 February 2012
Last updated at 21:48











Greece bailout: PM Lucas Papademos gives final warning











Mr Papademos said the measures would enable Greece to stay in the euro


Continue reading the main story









The
Greek PM has warned the nation of a collapse in living standards if MPs
fail to pass an unpopular austerity bill demanded in return for a
130bn-euro ($170bn; £110bn) bailout.

In a TV address, Lucas Papademos said Greece was "just a breath away from Ground Zero".

The cabinet has approved the measures but five government ministers resigned.

Unions are holding a 48-hour strike, and thousands of protesters rallied in central Athens against the measures.

Riot police were on standby after clashes on Friday, but the demonstrations were mostly peaceful.

The austerity measures are being demanded by the eurozone and
IMF - they must now be passed by the Greek parliament and approved by
European finance ministers.

Some MPs from the governing parties are expected to vote against the bill, the BBC's Mark Lowen in Athens reports.

But analysts say the package should still have enough support
in parliament, because Pasok, the largest party, and its coalition ally
New Democracy account for more than 230 deputies out of a total of 300.

Catastrophe fear
Mr Papademos said the measures would "decide the country's future" and enable it to stay inside the euro.

Continue reading the main story







What went wrong in Greece?




Greece's economic reforms, which led to it abandoning the drachma
as its currency in favour of the euro in 2002, made it easier for the
country to borrow money.











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"The social cost of this programme is
limited in comparison with the economic and social catastrophe that
would follow if we didn't adopt it," he said.

Savings would be lost, the government would be unable to pay
wages or salaries, and imports of fuel, medicine and machinery would be
disrupted, he added.

Earlier, Greek conservative leader Antonis Samaras said all his party's MPs must vote in favour of the bailout law.

Mr Samaras, whose New Democracy party is a member of the
governing coalition, said any rebels would face being dropped as
parliamentary candidates.

Deputy Foreign Minister Mariliza Xenogiannakopoulou, who quit on Friday afternoon, is the most senior defection so far.

Her Pasok party, the largest in the coalition, also suffered the loss of a deputy labour minister on Thursday.

The austerity cuts include:



  • 15,000 public-sector job cuts
  • liberalisation of labour laws
  • lowering the minimum wage by 20% from 751 euros a month to 600 euros
  • negotiating a debt write-off with banks.
These were presented to a eurozone ministers in Brussels on Thursday evening.

But they want a further 325m euros in savings for this year
and also insist that Greek leaders give "strong political assurances" on
the implementation of the packages.
























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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Angelique on Sun 12 Feb - 3:02

Panda

Yes - I think you are right - it's going to get worse before it gets better.

I think our visitors here are in truth reading your articles - instead of searching around they can easily access the latest.

Something which is worrying though for all their attempts to save the Euro - just because they can bail out Member Countries in difficulty does not mean that the whole of the EU will not be affected by the recession. If Joe Bloggs on the street doesn't buy the latest Audi on offer at some point this is going to affect even Germany with it's glowing manufacturing sector.




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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 7:03

Angelique wrote:Panda

Yes - I think you are right - it's going to get worse before it gets better.

I think our visitors here are in truth reading your articles - instead of searching around they can easily access the latest.

Something which is worrying though for all their attempts to save the Euro - just because they can bail out Member Countries in difficulty does not mean that the whole of the EU will not be affected by the recession. If Joe Bloggs on the street doesn't buy the latest Audi on offer at some point this is going to affect even Germany with it's glowing manufacturing sector.




Yes Angelique , if Greece defaults there will be repercussions around the World which is already in recession so won't be able to defends itself. This all
started in 2008 with the crash of Lehmann Brothers in the U.S.A. and the Banks in the U.S. and U.K mis-selling properties. Whereas in the old days Banks
had to retain so much liquidity and only lent a certain percentage of the Mortgage , they all took on Mortgages, up to 125% in some cases ,of the
value of the property and sold some of the Mortgages on to other Banks.Then came the Housing bust and unemployment which meant foreclosures and
lack of Bank liquidity. Let's hope lessons are learnt and Credit not so freely available.
ks

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 8:21

Feb 12, 12:42 AM EST


Greek premier defends bailout deal, painful cuts



By DEMETRIS NELLAS
Associated Press













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ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Warning of a "catastrophe" that would
leave Greeks subsisting on food stamps and the country wallowing in
bankruptcy, Greek leaders urged lawmakers Saturday to pass more painful
spending cuts on the eve of a crucial vote to qualify for a massive
bailout.
In a televised address Saturday,
Prime Minister Lucas Papademos defended the thousands of job cuts, drop
in the minimum wage and other austerity measures that would earn the
country a euro130 billion ($171.6 billion) bailout deal and stave off
bankruptcy.
"The deal will ensure our
country's future inside the euro. ... A bankruptcy would lead to
uncontrollable economic chaos and social explosion," Papademos said. He
added that a bankruptcy would lead to Greeks losing their savings; the
state being unable to pay salaries and pensions; and shortages in import
items such as medicines, fuel and machinery.
He
and the leaders of parties backing Greece's coalition government -
socialist George Papandreou and conservative Antonis Samaras - as well
as Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos, a socialist - used stark images
of a country under bankruptcy to convince the public and, more
importantly, persuade Parliament members debating the measures to vote
for the deal.
"If we do not dare today, we will live a catastrophe," Papandreou said during a parliamentary debate session.
"What
do you want, a country where food will be handed out with food stamps
and where we will have no fuel?" Samaras angrily told a dissenting
deputy.
"The battle is now. The war is now. If
we falter, nothing will be left standing...The real dilemma is between
painful measures and crushingly painful ones," Venizelos told socialist
lawmakers.
Several dissident lawmakers were
unconvinced. At least 13 conservatives and seven socialists declared
they would not vote and two more socialist deputies resigned, bringing
the total to three. Their replacements will be seated Sunday.
Typical
of the dissidents' arguments was the one put forward by veteran
socialist Vasso Papandreou (no relation to the socialist leader), a
former minister and member of the European Commission. "If we say we do
not pay the bond that matures on March 20, all (Europeans) will rush to
find a solution," she said.
Debt-stricken
Greece does not have the money to cover a euro14.5 billion bond
repayment on March 20, and must reach a vital debt-relief deal with
private bond investors before then. The country's woes have threatened
its future in the 17-country zone that uses the euro currency.
The Europeans are waiting to see Greece finally act on their commitments.
"If
the right course is now set sustainably in Athens, Greece can count on
our support - but only then," German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle
was quoted as telling the weekly Der Spiegel.
"There can no longer be advance payments," he said, according to the report. "Only actions count now."
Westerwelle
said that the "clear aim" is to keep Greece in the eurozone. But he
insisted that "it is not enough to approve reform programs; it is
necessary to begin the implementation of the reforms without delay. Not
sometime, but now."
The austerity measures
included in the bailout deal, including the layoffs of 15,000 workers
and a 22 percent drop in the minimum wage and pension cuts, have set off
street protests and led to the resignations of half a dozen Cabinet
officials.
Lawmakers are wary of voting for
the measures and the prospect of more to come, along with the job cuts
and the shutdown of several state agencies, including welfare agencies.
The demands of creditors, including the European Union and the
International Monetary Fund, have caused one of the original coalition
parties - the populist right-wing Popular Orthodox Party - to quit the
government and withdraw its four members from the cabinet. Two more
cabinet members, both socialist deputy ministers, have also quit. They
cited their disagreements with parts of the austerity package.
Both
Papandreou and Samaras made it clear that dissenters are not welcome in
the party. Samaras threatened to expel those who did not vote in favor
and exclude them from the lists of party candidates in the next
election. "I want to make it absolutely clear ... rebels or
'bravehearts' have no place in (the party's) candidate lists," he said.
"I
call on you to fall in line and vote for this difficult and painful
deal that will help (the country) stand on its feet. Whoever has a
conscience problem can resign," Papandreou told his lawmakers.
Together, the socialists and the conservatives have 236 deputies in the 300-member parliament.
Parliament
will vote Sunday on emergency legislation approving the new bailout and
a debt-swapping deal with private creditors. Further legislation
detailing the measures demanded by, and agreed with, Greece's public
creditors, the EU and the IMF, will be up for vote a few days later. The
exact time has not yet been set.
Samaras also
called for an immediate election once the bond swap deal with Greece's
private creditors is over, saying he would not agree to the extension of
the mandate of the coalition government beyond that date. Elections are
normally due in October 2013. The bond swap deal with Greece's private
creditors is expected to help Greece get rid of some euro100 billion of
its debt. The bond swap must be completed before March 20, the
redemption date for euro14.5 billion worth of bonds. Elections could
then be held about three weeks later than that, at the earliest.
While
the two parties met, union leaders staged a demonstration outside
Parliament that attracted about 4,000 protesters, while up to 6,000
policemen patrolled the streets of Athens. The protest ended with some
scuffles that left two people injured when police tried to clear the
street in front of Parliament. Authorities are bracing for a much
larger, and possibly violent, one on Sunday evening.
Another 4,000 turned out for a peaceful demonstration in Thessaloniki, Greece's second-largest city.
---
Costas Kantouris in Thessaloniki and Geir Moulson in Berlin contributed to this report.
© 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.





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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 8:37

Papandreou and Samaras made it clear that dissenters are not welcome in
the party. Samaras threatened to expel those who did not vote in favor
and exclude them from the lists of party candidates in the next
election. "I want to make it absolutely clear ... rebels or
'bravehearts' have no place in (the party's) candidate lists," he said."

What happened to the cradle of Democracy? How can one Government put shackles on decisions by future Governments.? They should have let Greece have a referendom all those months ago, that way if the Population voted to stay in the EU, they would have accepted the measures. if they voted to
opt out they wouls have had to accept the austerity.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 13:49

12 February 2012
Last updated at 13:15











Greek MPs debate controversial austerity plan











Mr Papademos has urged MPs to pass the bill warning of a "ground zero" for Greece if they don't


Continue reading the main story













Global Economy








  • Q&A: Greek debt crisis

  • Why Greece won't go away

  • 'Magic' made Greek debt disappear

  • What caused the eurozone crisis?











The
Greek parliament has begun to debate an unpopular austerity bill
demanded in return for a 130bn-euro ($170bn; £110bn) bailout.

Prime Minister Lucas Papademos has warned that failure to
pass the bill would lead to a default that would "set the country on a
disastrous adventure".

Some MPs from the governing parties are expected to vote against the bill.

But analysts say the package should still have enough support in parliament to pass.

Pasok, the largest party, and its coalition ally New
Democracy - which have both backed the bill - account for more than 230
deputies out of a total of 300.

The debate began in the early afternoon and is expected to
carry on into the evening, with the vote not expected until midnight
(22:00 GMT).

Thousands of people are expected to gather for a second day
running to protest against the measures, and riot police are on high
alert.

Greece cannot service its huge debt, and there are fears that
a default could endanger Europe's financial stability and even lead to a
break-up of the Eurozone.











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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 14:26

a honey words ahead of Monti visit



9 February 2012





La Stampa





















La Stampa, 9 February 2012








“Italy is taking impressive steps”. On the day Italian PM Mario Monti makes his first official visit to Washington, La Stampa devotes its front page to its exclusive interview with Barack Obama.
The US president sang the pre-emptive praises of the new prime
minster, saying he is “modernizing the Italian economy” and has “put
the country back on the path towards growth”. But Obama had soothing
words also for the entire European Union -


Over the last two years, Europe has taken a number of crucial yet
very difficult steps to address the mounting crisis. In Italy and
across Europe, citizens are making painful sacrifices. European
governments have come together to reform the architecture of the
European Union. […] Our economic fortunes are inextricably linked, and
our economic relationship with Europe is an important part of our
efforts to create jobs and prosperity in the United States. The
European Union is America’s single largest economic partner.
Nevertheless the president said European countries need to raise a
“bigger firewall” to prevent the debt crisis to spread, and must “show
their absolute commitment to the future of economic integration in
Europe”.

Obama also stressed the importance of NATO ­– praising Italy’s
decision to extend its commitment in Afghanistan beyond 2014 – and
Europe’s role in the “Arab spring”, hoping it will help add pressure on
Syria’s Bashar el Assad to resign. But if Washington is already
mulling over military intervention, as disclosed by CNN, European countries still oppose it and count on a last-gasp diplomatic solution, La Stampa reports.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 16:39


Cartoon










Italy


No default in prospect




10 February 2012


L'Espresso
Rome








Author





Francesco Tullio Altan (b. 1942) is an Italian cartoonist,
scriptwriter and satirist. Having graduated from architecture studies,
he embarked on a career as a cartoonist for children, later becoming
the creator of Pimpa and Kamillo Kromo as well several other well-known
comic strips published in […]






"I am confident: we are too bloody stupid to go bankrupt."

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 16:45

treet
clashes have been breaking out in Athens as tens of thousands of people
gather in anticipation of parliament's vote on a fresh raft of
austerity measures.



The country's prime minister, Lucas Papademos, has warned of "uncontrolled chaos" if if the spending cuts are not approved.


Sky's Europe correspondent Robert Nisbet, in Athens, said thousands of police were in the area of the parliament building to deal with violence.


As many as 30,000 protesters have arrived and more are coming all the time, including families with children, Nisbet added.


Tear gas has been fired into the crowd and police are armed with water canons.












Violent clashes break out in Athens on Sunday ahead of a key vote on austerity measures





As the cabinet met, confrontations erupted outside parliament between
dozens of youths and police in riot gear as more than 15,000 took to
the streets after unions launched a two-day general strike.


The country's
beleaguered coalition government has agreed to push through the deep
spending cuts to rescue a crucial €130bn (£108bn) bailout deal after six
members of the cabinet resigned. A further €15bn (£12.6bn) on top of
that amount is also under discussion.


Mr Papademos, has said he will "do everything necessary" to ensure
parliament passes the new austerity measures that would force Greeks to
take a minimum wage cut during a fifth year of recession.










Clashes erupted in Athens on Friday





He has also promised to replace any other cabinet members who did not fully back his efforts.


:: See more videos and stories on our dedicated eurozone crisis page


"It is absolutely necessary to complete the effort that began almost
two years to consolidate public finances, restore competitiveness and
economic recovery," Mr Papademos said at an emergency Cabinet meeting.


"A disorderly default would cast our country into a catastrophic
adventure. It would create conditions of uncontrollable economic chaos
and social explosion.


"Greeks' standard of living in the event of a disorderly default
would collapse, and the country would be swept into a deep vortex of
recession, instability, unemployment and penury. These developments
would lead, sooner or later, to departure from the euro.


"Either we will achieve an agreement that will set the country on a
new course, or, if we backtrack, in yet another historic display of
cowardice, we will head for collapse. I want to be clear. These are not
just crucial moments, they are dramatic for the country."


Nisbet said it was likely the cuts would be approved, in spite of
resistance from the general public. "It's simply a matter of maths - if
you take the two largest parties, they add up to 236 out of 300 seats in
parliament.


"We believe 30 out of those parties will abstain or vote down the
package - leaving a comfortable majority, although comfortable is a
difficult word to use in this circumstance."


On Friday, scores of youths, some in gas masks, used sledgehammers to
smash up marble paving stones in the main Syntagma Square before
hurling the rubble at riot police.


Eight officers and two members of the public were injured, while six suspected rioters were arrested, police said.


Debt-stricken Greece does not have the money to cover a €14.5bn
(£12bn) bond repayment due on March 20, and must reach a vital
debt-relief deal with private bond investors before then.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 17:25

Porto is the most efficient buildings across Europe

Study on efficiency and low consumption buildings praises efforts of local authorities
Published em 2012-02-09

JAMES ALVES RODRIGUES
Photo Fernando Timothy / Global Images
Study puts the city ahead of Berlin, Stockholm or Oslo



The study puts the Green City Index Puerto the top ranked European
energy performance of buildings, ahead of cities like Berlin or
Stockholm. In addition to low consumption, the work praises the measures implemented by the municipal authorities.

The first assigned by the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), a study
sponsored by Siemens, took into account three criteria: energy consumed
per square meter of residential space, implementation of energy
efficiency standards in buildings and efforts to promote the efficient
use of energy .
Read more in version e-paper or the print edition

=============================================



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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 17:48

I was just browsing and came across a "Blogger O'Toole" (Irish) and this is interesting




Euro crisis: You have six days to comply…



Pete Baker,

Fri 10 February 2012, 4:12pm

8






That’s the message to Greece from Germany the EU finance ministers. Despite initial reports, prompted by the Greeks themselves, what was agreed yesterday between the party leaders there fell short of what was required – by some €300-odd million. From the Irish Times report

The
ministers imposed a six-day deadline on Greek authorities to comply
with their wishes and said all three parties in its coalition must
pledge to implement the austerity plan and continue to do so after a
general election expected in April.

The ultimatum from the ministers, who will meet again next Wednesday
to sign off on the €130 billion rescue, came at the end of a day in
which Greece’s technocrat prime minister Lucas Papademos finally secured
his government’s support for the new reform package.

The escalation of pressure on Greece reflects frustration in Europe
at the failure of its leaders to execute policies promised in its
unsuccessful first bailout. Ministers had signalled as they arrived in
Brussels that they would not be endorsing the new bailout straight away.

The ministers will insist that no new loans are released without evidence that Athens is executing the plan in full.

“No
disbursement before implementation. We cannot live with a system where
promises are made and repeated and repeated and the implementation
measures are from time to time too weak,” said Luxem-bourg’s premier
Jean-Claude Juncker, chief of the group of ministers.
[That Jean-Claude Juncker? - Ed] Indeed. Whether the Greek parties pay any more attention to this ‘deadline’ than they did previous ones is another matter…

In Athens, tempers continue to fray. And the leader of the minority partner in the coalition, George Karatzaferis, has dropped a “bombshell”

George
Karatzaferis has declared that he cannot vote in favour of the
austerity measures that international lenders insist Greece must accept.

Karatzaferis explained that he believes the road being proposed by the troika is ‘not right’.

He also explained that he still supports Lucas’s Papademos interim
government, but wants the Greek prime minister to consider a reshuffle.

Karatzaferis’s Laos party controls 16 seats in 300 seat parliament,
so Papademos would still have a majority if Laos walked out of the
coalition (which does not appear to have happened).

However,
his power extends beyond simple parliamentary maths, as the EU has
demanded that all parties need to sign the bill before financial aid is
released.
The BBC Europe editor, Gavin Hewitt calls it the “most dangerous moment”.

The
size of the crowds on the streets will be important. Already some
politicians are wavering over whether to support the new measures. The
country’s deputy labour minister has resigned.

If any of the three conditions are not met by next Wednesday then Greece is heading for default.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos
accepts the country is being humiliated. He said to the Greek people:
“The choice we face is one of sacrifice or even greater sacrifice – on a
scale that cannot be compared.”

Nothing underlines the humiliation more than the suggestion from
France and Germany that Greece set up a separate account dedicated to
repaying its debts.

Many will argue that if that happens what is left of Greek sovereignty will have been cast aside.

It is not difficult to have conversations in Greece where people say
they never imagined that joining the EU would result in outsiders
dictating policies to them.

Mr Venizelos frames the debate as a choice between staying in the
euro or leaving. He challenges the conservative leader, Antonis Samaras,
to make the choice.

The
finance minister says that if you want to stay in the eurozone, then
you have to agree to cuts in pensions as demanded by the EU and the IMF.
He, Gavin Hewitt that is, thinks the ‘deadline’ will be met.

The
most likely outcome is that Greece will meet the three conditions by
next Wednesday not because they believe in the plan but because they
fear the chaos of the alternative, default.
Others, however, are not so sure. [Adds - And not just in the Telegraph.]

[And "the political trilemma"? - Ed] Ask Frau Bundeskanzlerin. Or hope that it crops up in the Guardian’s live-blogging updates.

ANYhoo… “These questions—and many others—will be answered in the next episode…”

Adds From a new Irish Times report

Greek
prime minister Lucas Papademos told his turbulent coalition government
tonight to accept a harsh international bailout deal or condemn the
nation to catastrophe.

“We cannot allow Greece to go bankrupt,” he told a cabinet meeting.
“Our priority is to do whatever it takes to approve the new economic
programme and proceed with the new loan agreement.”

Mr Papademos, the sole technocrat in a coalition of feuding
politicians, tried to assert his authority after six cabinet members
resigned over EU and IMF demands for yet more pay, pension and job cuts
in return for the financial rescue.

“It goes without saying that whoever disagrees and does not vote for
the new programme cannot remain in the government,” he said in televised
remarks.

Greece faces bankruptcy unless it gets the funds from the IMF and
European Union by March 20th when it has to repay €14.5 billion in
maturing bonds.

A former central banker, Mr Papademos tried to raise Greeks’ spirits
as the nation enters its fifth year of recession, saying economic growth
would return in 2013 despite accusations that the austerity is merely
driving Greece into a downward spiral.

Any alternative to the rescue would be much worse, he said in opening remarks using the word “catastrophe” four times.
Well, it is serious…




Tags: Economy, EU, Euro crisis, Europe, eurozone, France, Frau Bundeskanzlerin, Germany, Government, greece, International, Jean-Claude Juncker, Media, Society
Topic: Economy, Government, Politics, Society and Culture
Region: EU












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Comments (8)







  1. Alias (profile)



    10 February 2012 at 5:44 pm


    “You have six days to comply… [or we shoot ourselves in the head]”

    You would think the ulterior agenda is to get Greece out of the euro, but Germany wants it inside and under its fiscal control.

    To force Greece out is to force a sovereign default and to provoke a
    collapse of the eurosystem through the realisation of systemic risks –
    and that is what the EU has been desperately trying to avoid.















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  2. Framer (profile)



    10 February 2012 at 7:12 pm


    If they are on strike all the time it is little wonder unemployment
    is rising and GNP is falling. But the Greek public seems not to have
    noticed while the BBC only report fatuous stories about starving,
    penniless Greek surgeons.

    The longer the Greeks can keep getting bailouts before the Germans
    lose patience then the better positioned they will be for the return of
    the drachma especially as most have moved their money out of Greek banks
    in anticipation.















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  3. Pete Baker (profile)



    10 February 2012 at 9:19 pm


    Adds From a new Irish Times report

    Greek
    prime minister Lucas Papademos told his turbulent coalition government
    tonight to accept a harsh international bailout deal or condemn the
    nation to catastrophe.

    “We cannot allow Greece to go bankrupt,” he told a cabinet meeting.
    “Our priority is to do whatever it takes to approve the new economic
    programme and proceed with the new loan agreement.”

    Mr Papademos, the sole technocrat in a coalition of feuding
    politicians, tried to assert his authority after six cabinet members
    resigned over EU and IMF demands for yet more pay, pension and job cuts
    in return for the financial rescue.

    “It goes without saying that whoever disagrees and does not vote for
    the new programme cannot remain in the government,” he said in televised
    remarks.

    Greece faces bankruptcy unless it gets the funds from the IMF and
    European Union by March 20th when it has to repay €14.5 billion in
    maturing bonds.

    A former central banker, Mr Papademos tried to raise Greeks’ spirits
    as the nation enters its fifth year of recession, saying economic growth
    would return in 2013 despite accusations that the austerity is merely
    driving Greece into a downward spiral.

    Any alternative to the rescue would be much worse, he said in opening remarks using the word “catastrophe” four times.
    Well, it is serious…















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  4. Alias (profile)



    11 February 2012 at 12:25 am


    Framer, the reason why Greeks are devesting from their economy is
    the same reason why non-Greeks are not investing in it (impending
    monetary devaluation), so its a bit unfair to blame those macroeconomic
    dynamics on Greek workers when they have no control over them.















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  5. Pete Baker (profile)



    11 February 2012 at 12:42 am


    Focus, gentlemen.















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  6. Harry Flashman (profile)



    11 February 2012 at 1:35 am


    Here’s my prediction, it’s worth the same as anyone else’s, Greece
    will eventually default, the far right and the Communists will fight it
    out on the streets. It will be the preliminary to fierce ideologically
    driven politics reasserting itself throughout western Europe.

    The cosy consensus of the past half century is over, we who lived
    through the post-War boom in western Europe will look back on it as an
    amazing gilded age. A time of bread and circuses, when hairdressers from
    Strabane could take a fortnight’s holiday in Dubai and come back
    complaining it was boring. Our politicians kept us fat and happy while
    they got rich, the problem was it was all based on debt.

    Our grandchildren and those grandchildren of the millions of
    unassimilated immigrants we brought in to do the work we were to proud
    to do might resent that set-up somewhat.

    Watch Greece, as that country goes, so will go the rest of Europe, as
    our Chinese bondholders would say, we are about to live in interesting
    times.















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  7. Alias (profile)



    11 February 2012 at 2:07 am


    Papademos is the EU-appointed administrater/liquidater so he is
    there to serve his appointer’s interests, not the interests of the Greek
    people. It’s is the EU’s trademark to use members of a nation to betray
    it, since such agents of influence are assumed to be promoting the
    interests of the nation they belong to – particularly when they are in
    its government.

    Open Europe outlined the options for Greece. None of them are pleasant but the least worst option is the one that Mr Papademos is most anxious to avoid.

    As Dan Hannan points out (courtesy of zerohege), the Greek bail-out
    is nothing of the sort: it is the EU bailing itself out. Only 19% goes
    on public spending, and what does go there is considerably less than
    what is currently taken from the Greek budget to go to the EU.

    The Germans want all of the Greek budget to be dedicated to the EU
    with only the leftovers going to fund public spending. That’s not
    surprising given that German and France are owed the lion’s share. What
    is suprising is that Ireland has the biggest per capita exposure to
    Greek debt of any EU member but, as a minion state, it has no say in the
    matter even though a Greek default will do the most damage to its
    economy out of all of them.



  8. lover not a fighter (profile)



    11 February 2012 at 7:53 am


    Until someone actually defaults and exits the euro we wll not know what this particular bogeyman is made of.

    In the poker game eventually the cards must be shown.

    Greece has a long history and is a country in its own right. I doubt it will dis-entegrate because of a poker game.

    If you are daft enough to loan so much money to those that do not have the means to pay then; YOU ARE THE FOOL.

    Unfortunately we have not explained this to the bankers and
    politicians that led us into this mess. Instead we have let them reward
    themselves handsomely for their foolishness.

    What does that make us ?.

    But eventually the penny will drop and the politicians and bankers
    that allowed this mess to occur will at the very least be moved on.















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Last edited by Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 20:35; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 20:31

12 February 2012
Last updated at 19:56















Greek unrest as MPs debate austerity plan




















Police fired tear gas to disperse protesters throwing petrol bombs






Continue reading the main story













Global Economy








  • Q&A: Greek debt crisis

  • Why Greece won't go away

  • 'Magic' made Greek debt disappear

  • What caused the eurozone crisis?











Protests are spreading across central Athens, amid anger over austerity measures being debated by parliament.

Protesters threw stones and petrol bombs, and several buildings were set on fire. Police fired tear gas.

MPs are discussing a bill to introduce the measures, which
are being demanded in return for a 130bn-euro ($170bn; £110bn) bailout
to avoid default.

PM Lucas Papademos warned that failure to pass it would be "disastrous".

The BBC's Mark Lowen in Athens says the violent protests, which have been common in recent months, are surprisingly large.

Several historic buildings, including cafes and cinemas, were in flames.

Riot police were on high alert as tens of thousands of people gathered for a second day of protests on Athens' Syntagma Square.

Some reports say as many as 80,000 people have joined the
demonstration in Athens, with another 20,000 protesting in Thessaloniki.

Running battles with police are still continuing in parts of the capital.

Analysts say the bill should still have enough support in parliament. A vote is expected later on Sunday.

Lawmakers are also due to vote on a separate deal with private banks which could see 100bn euros of Greek debt written off.

If the measures are not approved, other eurozone nations and
the International Monetary Fund (IMF) say Greece will get no money from
them and will face bankruptcy in March, the BBC's Europe correspondent
Chris Morris reports from Athens.

Athens has to repay nearly 14.5bn euros in maturing debt on 20 March.Greek MPs debate austerity bill

'Ground Zero' warning
The debate began in the early afternoon on Sunday, with the vote not expected until midnight (22:00 GMT).

Continue reading the main story







What went wrong in Greece?




Greece's economic reforms, which led to it abandoning the drachma
as its currency in favour of the euro in 2002, made it easier for the
country to borrow money.











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Pasok, the largest party, and its
coalition ally New Democracy - which have both backed the bill - account
for more than 230 deputies out of a total of 300.

In a TV address on Saturday, Mr Papademos warned that Greece was "just a breath away from Ground Zero".

"The social cost of this programme is limited in comparison
with the economic and social catastrophe that would follow if we didn't
adopt it," he said.

Savings would be lost, the government would be unable to pay
wages or salaries, and imports of fuel, medicine and machinery would be
disrupted, he added.

The austerity cuts include:



  • 15,000 public-sector job cuts
  • liberalisation of labour laws
  • lowering the minimum wage by 20% from 751 euros a month to 600 euros
  • negotiating a debt write-off with banks.
They were presented to a eurozone ministers in Brussels on Thursday evening.




Mr Papademos made a last-minute TV address to the nation on Saturday


The Greek cabinet has approved the measures but five government ministers resigned.

But the eurozone block wants a further 325m euros in savings
for this year and also insists that Greek leaders give "strong political
assurances" on the implementation of the packages.

Greece cannot service its huge debt, and there are fears that
a default could endanger Europe's financial stability and even lead to a
break-up of the eurozone.

But many Greeks feel they are already squeezed almost to a
breaking point and cannot take any more cuts, the BBC's Mark Lowen in
Athens reports.

Some are even saying Greece should leave the eurozone to be
able to devalue its former currency, the drachma, and ease the debt
stranglehold.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Guest on Sun 12 Feb - 20:57

Greece is in meltdown - literally - tonight. See Armageddon in Athens for some truly scary pictures.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 21:06

Iris wrote:Greece is in meltdown - literally - tonight. See Armageddon in Athens for some truly scary pictures.

Where is the link Iris, or since I mange not to get the pictures half the time...perhaps you would like to post it?

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Guest on Sun 12 Feb - 21:15

Panda wrote:
Iris wrote:Greece is in meltdown - literally - tonight. See Armageddon in Athens for some truly scary pictures.

Where is the link Iris, or since I mange not to get the pictures half the time...perhaps you would like to post it?

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t19010-armageddon-in-athens

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Sun 12 Feb - 21:49

Feb 12, 4:30 PM EST


Rioting engulfs Athens, buildings burn before vote



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ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Fireballs lit up the night sky in
Greece's capital as buildings were set ablaze late Sunday amid
widespread rioting and looting before a historic parliamentary vote
expected to approve harsh austerity measures demanded to keep the
country from going bankrupt and within the eurozone.
At
least 10 buildings, including a closed cinema, a bank, a mobile phone
dealership, a glassware store and a cafeteria, were on fire. There were
no immediate reports of people trapped inside. Dozens of shops were also
looted in the worst riot damage the country has seen since unrest in
December 2008 following the fatal police shooting of a teenager.
Dozens
of police officers and at least 37 protesters were injured in Sunday's
violence, and more than 20 suspected rioters were detained. Clashes
erupted after more than 100,000 protesters marched to parliament to
rally against drastic austerity cuts that will ax one in five civil
service jobs and slash the minimum wage by more than a fifth.
"I've
had it! I can't take it any more. There's no point in living in this
country any more," said a man walking through his smashed and looted
optician store.
A protester who declined to
give his name said: "I don't care if an ornament shop is burning, but
it's a shame the building is old. We will win."
Since
May 2010, Greece has survived on a euro110 billion ($145 billion)
bailout from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund.
When that proved insufficient, a new rescue loan package worth a further
euro130 billion ($171 billion) was decided - combined with a massive
bond swap deal that will write off half the country's privately held
debt.
But for both deals to materialize,
Greece has to persuade its deeply skeptical creditors that it has the
will and ability to implement spending cuts and public sector reforms
that will end years of fiscal profligacy and tame gaping budget
deficits.
A three-story corner building was
completely consumed by flames with riot officers looking on from the
street, and firefighters trying to douse the blaze. Protesters set
bonfires in front of parliament and dozens of riot police formed lines
to try to deter them from trying to make a run on parliament. Clouds of
tear gas drifted across the square in front of parliament. Many in the
crowd wore gas masks and had their faces covered, while others carried
Greek flags and carried banners.
Riot police
fired dozens of tear gas volleys at rioting youths, who attacked them
with firebombs, fireworks and chunks of marble smashed off the fronts of
luxury hotels, banks and department stores.
Streets
were strewn with stones, smashed glass and burnt wreckage, while
terrified passers-by sought refuge in hotel lounges and cafeterias.
Athens Mayor Giorgos Kaminis said rioters tried to storm the city hall building, but were repelled.
"Once again, the city is being used as a lever to try to destabilize the country," he said.
Conservative New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras said the rioting "hurts the entire country."
"We are seeing scenes from a future that we must do our utmost to avert," he said.
Prime
Minister Lucas Papademos' government - an unlikely coalition of the
majority Socialists and their main foes, New Democracy - was expected to
carry the austerity vote, even by a narrow margin.
Combined,
they control 236 of Parliament's 300 seats, although at least 20
lawmakers from both main parties said they would not back the new
private sector wage cuts, pension reductions and civil service layoffs
dictated by the draft austerity program.
"There
are very few such moments in the history of a nation," Finance Minister
Evangelos Venizelos said. "Our country has an acute issue of survival."
"The
question is not whether some salaries and pensions will be curtailed,
but whether we will be able to pay even these reduced wages and
pensions," he added. "When you have to choose between bad and worse, you
will pick what is bad to avoid what is worse."
The
new cutbacks, which follow two years of harsh income losses and tax
hikes - amid a deep recession and record high unemployment - have been
demanded by Greece's bailout creditors in return for a new batch of
vital rescue loans.
"By Wednesday, finance
ministers from eurozone countries must finally approve the financing and
support program for Greece," Venizelos said. "If that does not happen,
and it is not at all certain that it will happen unless we raise to the
occasion, then we will not be able by Friday, Feb. 17, to officially
start the bond exchange process."
"We won't be
in time to carry out the bond swap by March 5, and we won't be in time
to address the problem of major bond issues that must be paid from March
14-20," he said. "If that doesn't happen, the country will go
bankrupt."
The parliamentary debate started
shortly after 3:30 p.m. (1330 GMT; 8:30 a.m. EST), and will take about
10 hours, finishing around midnight.
"By
midnight today, before markets open, parliament must send the message
that our nation is both willing and able," Venizelos aid.
"Unfortunately, the markets have subjugated states."
German
Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble was quoted as telling the Welt am
Sonntag newspaper Sunday that Greece "cannot be a bottomless pit."
"That's why the Greeks must finally put a bottom in," he added. "Then we can put something in too."
Highlighting
previous promises he said weren't kept, Schaeuble said "that is why
Greece's promises aren't enough for us any more," according to the
report.
Asked whether Greece has a long-term
future in the eurozone, Germany's vice chancellor told ARD television
"that is now in the hands of the Greeks alone."
Philipp Roesler said in the interview broadcast that what matters is not just Greece making pledges.
"We
want ... the Greek parliament also to approve laws and, as far as
possible, take the first steps to implement what has been agreed," he
said.
"Only when that happens, only then can
there be new aid - and Greece urgently needs that," said Roesler, who is
also Germany's economy minister.
Roesler
acknowledged that Greece faces "difficult decisions" but stressed that
Germany wants it to be able to get out of trouble.
"It
is not enough just to give financial aid - they must tackle the second
cause of the crisis, the lack of economic competitiveness," he said.
"For that, they need ... massive structural reforms. Otherwise Greece
will not get out of the crisis."
Introducing
the legislation Sunday, Socialist lawmaker Sofia Yiannaka said the
intense pressure from Greece's EU partners to pass the measures was the
result of delays in implementing already agreed reforms.
"The delays have our imprint. We should not blame foreigners for them," she said.
"We
have finally found out that you have to pay back what you have borrowed
... We used to say 'poor state, but rich citizens' because we tolerated
tax evasion for populist reasons. Is this the country we want?"
Yiannaka added.
Leftist parties and the small rightist LAOS - a former junior coalition partner - have vowed to vote against the new austerity.
"You
are not trying to save Greece, but a handful of industrialists,"
Communist Party spokesman Thanassis Pafilis said. "And you disgracefully
blame the struggling people who created the wealth we have. You are
trying to send them back to the Middle Ages. We will not allow it."
---
Demetris Nellas in Athens and Geir Moulson in Berlin contributed to this report.
© 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.





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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Badboy on Mon 13 Feb - 0:16

I BELIEVE THE VOTE PASSED IN FAVOUR ABOUT AN HOUR AGO.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Mon 13 Feb - 2:19

Feb 12, 8:57 PM EST


Greece passes new austerity deal amid rioting



By NICHOLAS PAPHITIS and DEREK GATOPOULOS
Associated Press













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ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Greek lawmakers on Monday approved harsh
new austerity measures demanded by bailout creditors to save the
debt-crippled nation from bankruptcy, after riots in Athens and other
cities left stores looted and burned and more than 120 people hurt.
The
historic vote paves the way for Greece's European partners and the
International Monetary Fund to release $170 billion (euro130 billion) in
new rescue loans, without which Greece would default on its mountain of
debt next month and likely leave the eurozone - a scenario that would
further roil global markets.
Lawmakers voted 199-74 in favor of the cutbacks, despite strong dissent among the two main coalition members.
In
response, the Socialists and conservatives expelled 22 and 21
lawmakers, respectively, reducing their majority in the 300-seat
parliament from 236 to 193.
Violence was also
reported in six other cities, the worst in central Volos where the town
hall and a tax office were damaged by fire, police said.
Sunday's
clashes erupted after more than 100,000 protesters marched to the
parliament to rally against the drastic cuts, which will ax one in five
civil service jobs and slash the minimum wage by more than a fifth.
At
least 45 businesses were damaged by fire, including several historic
buildings, movie theaters, banks and a cafeteria, in the worst riot
damage in Athens in years. Fifty police officers were injured and at
least 70 protesters were hospitalized. Sixth-seven suspected rioters
were arrested and a further 70 detained.
Prime Minister Lucas Papademos urged calm.
"Vandalism
and destruction have no place in a democracy and will not be
tolerated," Papademos told Parliament just before the vote. "I call on
the public to show calm. At these crucial times, we do not have the
luxury of this type of protest. I think everyone is aware of how serious
the situation is."
Since May 2010, Greece has
survived on a $145 billion (euro110 billion) bailout from its European
partners and the International Monetary Fund. When that proved
insufficient, the new rescue package was approved. The deal, which has
not yet been finalized, will be combined with a massive bond swap deal
to write off half the country's privately held debt.
But
for both deals to materialize, Greece had to persuade its deeply
skeptical creditors that it has the will to implement spending cuts and
public sector reforms that will end years of fiscal profligacy and tame
gaping budget deficits.
As protests raged
Sunday, demonstrators set bonfires in front of parliament and dozens of
riot police formed lines to keep them from making a run on the building.
Security forces fired dozens of tear gas volleys at rioters, who
attacked them with firebombs and chunks of marble broken off the fronts
of luxury hotels, banks and department stores.
Clouds
of tear gas drifted across the square, and many in the crowd wore gas
masks or had their faces covered, while others carried Greek flags and
banners. Masked rioters also attacked a police station with petrol bombs
and stones.
A three-story building was
completely consumed by flames as firefighters struggled to douse the
blaze. Streets were strewn with stones, smashed glass and burnt
wreckage, while terrified passers-by sought refuge in hotel lounges and
cafeterias.
Scores of bat-wielding youths
smashed property at will for several hours, leaving broken traffic
lights hanging from poles, and chairs and tables from looted coffee
shops dumped on the street. Ambulances weaved through narrow backstreets
to ferry the injured to hospital, dodging burning trash bins and the
running battles between rioters and police.
"I've
had it! I can't take it any more. There's no point in living in this
country any more," said a distraught shop owner walking through his
smashed and looted optician store.
Athens
Mayor Giorgos Kaminis said rioters tried to storm the City Hall
building, but were repelled. "Once again, the city is being used as a
lever to try to destabilize the country," he said.
In
parliament, Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos said the new austerity
measures were vital to the country's very economic survival.
"The
question is not whether some salaries and pensions will be curtailed,
but whether we will be able to pay even these reduced wages and
pensions," he told lawmakers before the vote. "When you have to choose
between bad and worse, you will pick what is bad to avoid what is
worse."
The new cutbacks, which follow two
years of harsh income losses and tax hikes amid a deep recession and
record high unemployment have been demanded by Greece's bailout
creditors in return for a new batch of vital rescue loans.
Greece's eurozone partners, meanwhile, kept up the pressure for real reform.
German
Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble was quoted as telling the Welt am
Sonntag newspaper on Sunday that Greece "cannot be a bottomless pit."
Highlighting
previous pledges he said weren't kept, Schaeuble said "that is why
Greece's promises aren't enough for us any more."
Asked
whether Greece has a long-term future in the eurozone, Germany's Vice
Chancellor Philip Roesler said "that is now in the hands of the Greeks
alone."
"It is not enough just to give
financial aid - they must tackle the second cause of the crisis, the
lack of economic competitiveness," he told said ARD television. "For
that, they need ... massive structural reforms. Otherwise Greece will
not get out of the crisis."
Introducing the
legislation Sunday, Socialist lawmaker Sofia Yiannaka said the intense
pressure from Greece's EU partners to pass the measures was the result
of delays in implementing already agreed reforms.
"The
delays have our imprint. We should not blame foreigners for them," she
said. "We have finally found out that you have to pay back what you have
borrowed."
---
Demetris Nellas in Athens and Geir Moulson in Berlin contributed to this report.
© 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.





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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Mon 13 Feb - 7:14

6:20am UK, Monday February 13, 2012


The Greek parliament has approved an austerity bill aimed at securing a
second bailout as riots spread across Athens.



Before the parliamentary vote, serious violence broke out in the capital and spread to
other Greek towns and cities.

Buildings, including a cinema and a bank, were set on fire, and shops were
smashed up as masked rioters fought police. Dozens of officers and protesters
were injured, while more than 20 suspected rioters were arrested.

:: See more videos and stories on our dedicated eurozone crisis
page


The violence exploded after more than 100,000 protesters marched to
parliament to demand a vote against the latest cuts.

Sky News Europe correspondent Robert Nisbet said: "The Greek people have been
suffering, there is no doubt about that.

"You just have to look at some of the figures. Unemployment here is running
at well over 20% and if you look at the 15 to 24-year-olds half are now
unemployed, pensions have been cut drastically, public sector workers have been
sacked.


Forty-three members of the ruling coalition refused to
back the bill



"But now this austerity package has been passed there is going to be even
more pain - 150,000 further public sector workers are going to be made
redundant, 15,000 this year, and the munimum wage cut by 22%."

Eurozone finance ministers will meet in Brussels on Wednesday to decide
whether the vote is enough to trigger the 130bn euro (£109bn) bailout.

Before Sunday's vote, Greek prime minister Lucas Papademos denounced the
violence as he urged parliament to help the country avoid bankruptcy.

"Vandalism, violence and destruction have no place in a democratic country
and won't be tolerated," he said.

State TV reported that violence had also broken out in Heraklion, the capital
of Crete, as well as the towns of Volos and Agrinio in central Greece.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos warned that the alternative to the bill,
namely bankruptcy and possible departure from the eurozone, would be much
worse.

"The choice is not between sacrifice and no sacrifices at all, but between
sacrifices and unimaginably harsher ones," he told parliament.

MPs voted 199-74 in favour of the cuts but their was dissent from members of
the two main coalition parties.

Forty-three politicians from the majority Socialists and conservative New
Democracy party failed to support the bill. They were immediately expelled by
their parties.

Greece needs the latest bailout before March 20 to meet debt repayments of
14.5bn euros, or suffer a chaotic default which could shake the entire
eurozone.

It hopes it will be combined with a massive bond swap to write off half the
country's privately held debt.

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Mon 13 Feb - 7:36

Bond Yields have risen for Germany, Italy, Spain and Greece.



Dueutche Bank spokesman says Greece has not met every demand by the Troika by not voting for everything, the 10 yr Bond has a 33% yield. He also
says the resignations and abstentions on last nights vote has weakened the Government and will worry the TROIKA.

A seperate Fund will be set up to administer the E130billion loan .

Bavaria says Greece should leave the Euro because the internal pressure from protesters will make it virtually impossible to administer the austerity
measures and it is unlikely Greece will sign up to any future Government committing itself to the restraints.

Europe faces a lost decade because of it's fiscal policy for the Euro Countries trying to stop the contagion.

Stocks rise around the World on the News, Euro rising .

Papademos says vote is historic because defeat would mean disorder . The mood of the Protesters was one of rage and betrayal .

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Re: New EC Thread

Post  Panda on Mon 13 Feb - 9:33

Yannos PAPATINIOU former Finance Minister says Troika estimated a turnaround in Greek fortunes in 2013. now it is 2020 so he says it is up to the Greek
Government to bring in measures which will boost the Economy and at the same time honour its Debt .

The European Finance Ministers meet on Wednesday to decide whether the bailout will be given.

A new twist is the idea that a sperate Acount will be opened for the Bailout money which will be paid in stages and to allay the fears that new Bondholders
will be paid from this account making the bonds secure.

The concensus is Greece made a big mistake in implementing austerity measures without bringing in measures to stimulate the economy.

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Re: New EC Thread

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