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Fact and Fiction

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Fact and Fiction

Post  MaryB on Sat 3 Mar - 16:59

I'd say the hardest thing about this case must be separating what is actually undisputed fact regards to sightings, timings etc. Not to say anybody in particular is telling deliberate lies but it is strange that stories have changed. Re shutters and checking of the children. Like I would imagine if somebody checked my children they would actually see them not just listen at a door. And whether or not shutters doors windows are locked or unlocked. But surely the police are used to things not being accurate and not believing everything people say. What I mean is this. When there are threads arguing against this that or the other what is the basis for them. This is only one example. Did Gerry check Madeleine at 9 o'clock or not and did he see her alive and well in bed. Not saying he didn't but would a policeman investigating a case necessarily believe everything they said.


Last edited by MaryB on Sat 3 Mar - 17:06; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : to add something)

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  kitti on Sun 4 Mar - 8:26

He prob didn't go Into the apt, as he said, that was the first time that he had actually ventured inside the bedroom ...so my guess is, he listened at the shutters like matt did earlier , that is if he actually did get off his arse and do a check, I know Wilkins saw him but Wilkins can't be precise on the time, between 8.30-? when he was walking his child, he could off seen GM on his way to the tapas at 8.30 at the start off the evening, after all, didn't GM sometimes leave KM in the apt and go to the tapas first, as per usual, GM was being selfish and lazy leaving KM to do all the work....I know GM was DEFINATELY there one night before KM, he was with O'Brien...

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  mossman on Sun 4 Mar - 10:17

I would agree that peoples stories will differ over different events, one recollection will be different to another. However, in the main they would usually be generally in agreement.

If I cast my mind back to our family holiday last year, I can immediately recall what we did. I can even tell you whether one event happened during week 1, week 2 or week 3 of that holiday. I am sure if the life of one of my children depeneded on it, I could go one step further and have a reasonable recollection of what we did on each day. Whilst my husband's recollection might differ somewhat from mine, say for example I think we went to the zoo on Tuesday and he says no that was Wednesday, surely after some discussion we could finally agree on which day it was.

However, the Tapas group, by their own admission in their statements, cannot remember anything at all that happened with certainty over a period of the preceeding four days. Their statements continually tell us it is so hard to remember what they did on which day, one day was the same as the next etc.

Then they are hit with what must surely be the biggest "disaster" that can occur on any holilday - a child in your party being abducted - and they cannot remember with any degree of certainty, any part of any day or night.

Therein is the biggest problem I have with this whole saga. A group of young professional adults cannot remember what they did during the previous four or five days. Mrs Fenn an elderly lady who could be expected to have a hazy memory of things at best would appear to be more aware of happenings and her surroundings than any of them.

Other witnesses can say I was in such a place between 8.30 and 9.00. People who could not be expected to remember what they were doing can provide factual and coherent statements. Those most closely connected with Madeleine seem to find the questions about what they did when boring annoying.

The way Kate sighs and shrugs her shoulders during interviews is almost to say I have been over this so many times I am bored or answering these stupid questions.

So I do think they are telling deliberate lies. If they reallly cannot remember with certainty what they were doing at any particular time, make an appeal. The part of the complex they were in seems to have been fairly compact and from what I can gather from the guest lists the majority of the guests were English. Appeal to them, if you saw us at a particular time or in a particular place come forward and let us know so we can piece together a proper time line.

Better still do a reconstruction. Oh, I forgot, Stu said not to.

There are most definately deliberate lies being told.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  kitti on Sun 4 Mar - 10:36

In 2008 they couldn't event remember much about the holiday.


In my experience, if you have a trauma then you NEVER forget times, places and even smells ...the tapas lot were part off this trauma so they shouldn't forget what they did and when they did it.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  tigger on Sun 4 Mar - 10:55

kitti wrote:In 2008 they couldn't event remember much about the holiday.


In my experience, if you have a trauma then you NEVER forget times, places and even smells ...the tapas lot were part off this trauma so they shouldn't forget what they did and when they did it.

Yes, Kitti, every detail is etched on your memory, time seems to expand - I had a near fatal accident in the car once and twenty years later I can recall the interior of the car, the way the passenger door was at angle above me, the car seemed twice as big inside, I saw the tree and noticed the brown bark, pretty well every unimportant detail.

It's very hard to remember something that didn't happen.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  wjk on Sun 4 Mar - 11:54

mossman wrote:I would agree that peoples stories will differ over different events, one recollection will be different to another. However, in the main they would usually be generally in agreement.

If I cast my mind back to our family holiday last year, I can immediately recall what we did. I can even tell you whether one event happened during week 1, week 2 or week 3 of that holiday. I am sure if the life of one of my children depeneded on it, I could go one step further and have a reasonable recollection of what we did on each day. Whilst my husband's recollection might differ somewhat from mine, say for example I think we went to the zoo on Tuesday and he says no that was Wednesday, surely after some discussion we could finally agree on which day it was.

However, the Tapas group, by their own admission in their statements, cannot remember anything at all that happened with certainty over a period of the preceeding four days. Their statements continually tell us it is so hard to remember what they did on which day, one day was the same as the next etc.

Then they are hit with what must surely be the biggest "disaster" that can occur on any holilday - a child in your party being abducted - and they cannot remember with any degree of certainty, any part of any day or night.

Therein is the biggest problem I have with this whole saga. A group of young professional adults cannot remember what they did during the previous four or five days. Mrs Fenn an elderly lady who could be expected to have a hazy memory of things at best would appear to be more aware of happenings and her surroundings than any of them.

Other witnesses can say I was in such a place between 8.30 and 9.00. People who could not be expected to remember what they were doing can provide factual and coherent statements. Those most closely connected with Madeleine seem to find the questions about what they did when boring annoying.

The way Kate sighs and shrugs her shoulders during interviews is almost to say I have been over this so many times I am bored or answering these stupid questions.

So I do think they are telling deliberate lies. If they reallly cannot remember with certainty what they were doing at any particular time, make an appeal. The part of the complex they were in seems to have been fairly compact and from what I can gather from the guest lists the majority of the guests were English. Appeal to them, if you saw us at a particular time or in a particular place come forward and let us know so we can piece together a proper time line.

Better still do a reconstruction. Oh, I forgot, Stu said not to.

There are most definately deliberate lies being told.
Brilliant post. Spot on

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  AnnaEsse on Sun 4 Mar - 12:49

kitti wrote:In 2008 they couldn't event remember much about the holiday.


In my experience, if you have a trauma then you NEVER forget times, places and even smells ...the tapas lot were part off this trauma so they shouldn't forget what they did and when they did it.

I agree, kitti. In 1999, I witnessed a tragic incident. I can 'see' the surfinias in hanging baskets along that road, and it was quite windy, so the flowers were drifting in the breeze. There's a sign outside a cafe that says, "All day breakfast." I could tell you the rest of it, but that's enough. The incident was so traumatic that I recall everything just before and everything just after. I can "see," it when I think of that day.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  Panda on Sun 4 Mar - 13:15



Kate admitted that she had to ask other Tapas Members the sequence of events while she was writing the book , yet she has total recall when it comes to phone calls from Cherie Blair, Gordon Brown and all the other Celebs.

For me , the most unbelievable comment Kate ever made was on the BBC programme being interviewed by Jane Hill. Jane commented that several PDL
residents had taken time off to search for Madeleine and asked why Kate didn't. Kate replied ' (long bored sigh)...'well, you know, we were busy'.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  kitti on Sun 4 Mar - 14:01

Anna, I even have a smell about what happened and every so often, that 'smell'....comes to me and I can smell it as if it was yesterday.


It was 45 years ago.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  kitti on Sun 4 Mar - 14:03

I don't believe you can get confused about something traumatic that happens...you only get confused if you lie about the situation.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  kitti on Sun 4 Mar - 14:05

I think it could be really hard to think about something if you have lied about it and THEN you have to remember the lie and then get confused about it.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  tanszi on Sun 4 Mar - 16:38

agree totally with those who can (if they wish) to recall the tiniest detail of the day of a tragic event. I know i can, i can talk in general terms about them, and if for some reason i had to revisit, i can remember many details about them where they were, where i was, who i was with, who else came and what was said and by whom. I believe that an event can also be so traumatic the memory is lost, but in that casemost people say it was so awful i ve blotted it out, they dont state an important detail and then pretend they never said it,or change it to make it fit something else.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  MaryB on Sun 4 Mar - 16:47

This is why a reconstruction was necessary. To 'iron' out discrepancies. With all main people taking part. Why didn't the actress taking the part of Kate not appear in the TV reconstruction. Seems strange one of the main witnesses. And why did the orginal people not take part in a reconstruction. If I was a policeman investigating this case I'd be very concerned if main witnesses were reluctant or unwilling to take part in a police reconstruction.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  Panda on Sun 4 Mar - 16:54

MaryB wrote:This is why a reconstruction was necessary. To 'iron' out discrepancies. With all main people taking part. Why didn't the actress taking the part of Kate not appear in the TV reconstruction. Seems strange one of the main witnesses. And why did the orginal people not take part in a reconstruction. If I was a policeman investigating this case I'd be very concerned if main witnesses were reluctant or unwilling to take part in a police reconstruction.

Hi Maryb, the American Actress supposed to play the part of Kate looked remarkably like her but her role ended up on the cutting room floor because
the Director couldn't tie in Kates version of events with the other Tapas Group.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  mara thon on Sun 4 Mar - 17:15

Years ago when I was newly divorced, my ex husband kidnapped (for want of a better word) my then small son from his school, thanks to a very stupid and irresponsible teacher. It took two weeks of solicitors and police to get him back and to this day years later I can remember virtually every word spoken, every little detail, even though I was an emotional mess at the time. I didn't even want to get dressed and face the day, I only slept through sheer exhaustion and I couldn't eat, doing my hair and putting on make up never entered my head and I knew where my son was and I knew he wasn't in any danger. These traumatic episodes in your life don't leave you ever, you tend to replay them in your mind over and over again. Quite frankly I can't believe that the Mccanns and friends could possibly be so vague about their movements.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  Panda on Sun 4 Mar - 17:27


That must have been aa dreadful experience mara_thon, my ex gave me a hard time you wouldn't believe some of the things he did. As you say, any trauma can bring instant recall and the reason the Tapas 9 refused a recon was they knew their timelines would not match their Statements and those
of OC Staff.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  SteveT on Sun 4 Mar - 19:22

With hindsight, they should have called a reconstruction even if a couple of the group said they wouldn't go. I think questions would have been asked about people not wanting to attend and would have put a lot of pressure for the "pact" to break.

Mara_thon, that must have been terrible.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

Post  mara thon on Sun 4 Mar - 19:55

It was the worst experience of my life SteveT and although it was a lot of years ago now I can still see it as clear as if it were only yesterday, I can recall every detail and I know none of it is even hazy because the friend who came rushing to my side remembers it as clearly as I do. I honestly don't think you forget such a thing, you go over and over it for a long time and even when you recall it many years later, it stays just as clear.

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Re: Fact and Fiction

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