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Stating the obvious...

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  pennylane on Sun 8 Jul - 22:42

Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:

The goal is not only to find what happened. The goal is to make justice. And justice can only happen if things are done the right way. I don't believe this idiot for a minute. But even if he was right and his info could potentially solve this case, the way he did things would ruin any investigation. Is that what we want? To find out what happened and be unable to bring the culprits to justice? That's certainly not what I want so I can never condone people who do things this way.

In an ideal world I would absolutely agree with you. But unfortunately the cards are stacked ridiculously in favour of bad people with big bucks. Where money is concerned, justice has become a complete farce.

I'm sorry but if we all thought like that, planet Earth would become an anarchy and we would all by killing each other. I hope you are just as understanding if someday you find a nutter digging on your property at night claiming you have a dead body buried there.

ETA: the idiot could have got shot!

I would report him to the police for trespassing, and then I would demand the area in question be dug up and examined thoroughly.

btw I do not condone his actions and believe what he did was totally uncouth! I have no idea what his motives are, and chances are he is a sleazy character, or paid by someone to scupper something. Certainly South African's keep popping up on the scene with various outrageous claims. I'd be a naive fool to accept what he says as gospel that's for sure. But what I do feel absolutely, is that justice will not come in a way anyone expects (if it ever does) where this case is concerned. I also feel it likely the body never left PDL and as I said before.... GM knew RM (imo).

Murat can't demand anything. There are proper channels to go through (legally speaking) and the parents of the missing child are supposed to be the interested party so they should request something is done. Of course he can dig whatever he wants in his own garden but that's basically it. And I'm pretty sure that if he tried to dig anything in his property he would be accused of destroying evidence, making a body disappear, etc.

Yes I agree with you.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  Claudia79 on Mon 9 Jul - 0:00

pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:

In an ideal world I would absolutely agree with you. But unfortunately the cards are stacked ridiculously in favour of bad people with big bucks. Where money is concerned, justice has become a complete farce.

I'm sorry but if we all thought like that, planet Earth would become an anarchy and we would all by killing each other. I hope you are just as understanding if someday you find a nutter digging on your property at night claiming you have a dead body buried there.

ETA: the idiot could have got shot!

I would report him to the police for trespassing, and then I would demand the area in question be dug up and examined thoroughly.

btw I do not condone his actions and believe what he did was totally uncouth! I have no idea what his motives are, and chances are he is a sleazy character, or paid by someone to scupper something. Certainly South African's keep popping up on the scene with various outrageous claims. I'd be a naive fool to accept what he says as gospel that's for sure. But what I do feel absolutely, is that justice will not come in a way anyone expects (if it ever does) where this case is concerned. I also feel it likely the body never left PDL and as I said before.... GM knew RM (imo).

Murat can't demand anything. There are proper channels to go through (legally speaking) and the parents of the missing child are supposed to be the interested party so they should request something is done. Of course he can dig whatever he wants in his own garden but that's basically it. And I'm pretty sure that if he tried to dig anything in his property he would be accused of destroying evidence, making a body disappear, etc.

Yes I agree with you.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

I have put myself in Murat's place re this and to be honest I don't know what I would know. Knowing my personality, my first instinct would be to dig the damn place and say 'see, nothing there'. But I also know if he did that he would be accused of digging a body and hiding it elsewhere. I think in a way I would be afraid of the consequences. I would probably contact the authorities and say 'you are free to come here and dig whatever you want' and wait and see what would happen.

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  marxman on Mon 9 Jul - 0:08

Claudia79 wrote:
marxman wrote:Well, after considerating many of the views
expressed here, and there are many very
sensible and logical points, I feel that in
certain circumstances the rights to privacy
and property rights must take second stage
when a child's existence welfare and fate
are the over-riding concern.
Birch freely admits that he entered the
property 'illegally' meaning that he hadn't
the consent or knowledge of the owners.
But what if he had prior good and reliable
information that Maddie was there, maybe
confined in a cellar, as Edgar asserted, or
as Birch now indicates as being buryed under a
driveway. Would informing the owners prior
to a search be prudent?
What if Birch and his contraption had located
a secret place with a live missing child under
the ground would the question of property
rights and privacy laws be relevant?


That is why there are authorities!

yes indeed.

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  pennylane on Mon 9 Jul - 14:16

Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:

I'm sorry but if we all thought like that, planet Earth would become an anarchy and we would all by killing each other. I hope you are just as understanding if someday you find a nutter digging on your property at night claiming you have a dead body buried there.

ETA: the idiot could have got shot!

I would report him to the police for trespassing, and then I would demand the area in question be dug up and examined thoroughly.

btw I do not condone his actions and believe what he did was totally uncouth! I have no idea what his motives are, and chances are he is a sleazy character, or paid by someone to scupper something. Certainly South African's keep popping up on the scene with various outrageous claims. I'd be a naive fool to accept what he says as gospel that's for sure. But what I do feel absolutely, is that justice will not come in a way anyone expects (if it ever does) where this case is concerned. I also feel it likely the body never left PDL and as I said before.... GM knew RM (imo).

Murat can't demand anything. There are proper channels to go through (legally speaking) and the parents of the missing child are supposed to be the interested party so they should request something is done. Of course he can dig whatever he wants in his own garden but that's basically it. And I'm pretty sure that if he tried to dig anything in his property he would be accused of destroying evidence, making a body disappear, etc.

Yes I agree with you.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

I have put myself in Murat's place re this and to be honest I don't know what I would know. Knowing my personality, my first instinct would be to dig the damn place and say 'see, nothing there'. But I also know if he did that he would be accused of digging a body and hiding it elsewhere. I think in a way I would be afraid of the consequences. I would probably contact the authorities and say 'you are free to come here and dig whatever you want' and wait and see what would happen.

I would do similar Claudia, except I would be pushing for the authorities to come with urgency so as to end the speculation and distress. I wouldn't sit back and allow it to simmer throughout the summer whilst being given the run around. I would be both angry and chomping at the bit if I had nothing to hide.

I think also, deep down, I might harbour a fear that I was being set up by dark forces, and most especially if I had a seedy past of some kind; then I would be totally scared witless and paranoid to the hilt!

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  Claudia79 on Mon 9 Jul - 15:12

pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:

I would report him to the police for trespassing, and then I would demand the area in question be dug up and examined thoroughly.

btw I do not condone his actions and believe what he did was totally uncouth! I have no idea what his motives are, and chances are he is a sleazy character, or paid by someone to scupper something. Certainly South African's keep popping up on the scene with various outrageous claims. I'd be a naive fool to accept what he says as gospel that's for sure. But what I do feel absolutely, is that justice will not come in a way anyone expects (if it ever does) where this case is concerned. I also feel it likely the body never left PDL and as I said before.... GM knew RM (imo).

Murat can't demand anything. There are proper channels to go through (legally speaking) and the parents of the missing child are supposed to be the interested party so they should request something is done. Of course he can dig whatever he wants in his own garden but that's basically it. And I'm pretty sure that if he tried to dig anything in his property he would be accused of destroying evidence, making a body disappear, etc.

Yes I agree with you.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

I have put myself in Murat's place re this and to be honest I don't know what I would know. Knowing my personality, my first instinct would be to dig the damn place and say 'see, nothing there'. But I also know if he did that he would be accused of digging a body and hiding it elsewhere. I think in a way I would be afraid of the consequences. I would probably contact the authorities and say 'you are free to come here and dig whatever you want' and wait and see what would happen.

I would do similar Claudia, except I would be pushing for the authorities to come with urgency so as to end the speculation and distress. I wouldn't sit back and allow it to simmer throughout the summer whilst being given the run around. I would be both angry and chomping at the bit if I had nothing to hide.

I think also, deep down, I might harbour a fear that I was being set up by dark forces, and most especially if I had a seedy past of some kind; then I would be totally scared witless and paranoid to the hilt!

You can't push the authorities, Pennylane. That's not how it works and Murat knows it.

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  pennylane on Mon 9 Jul - 15:56

Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:

Murat can't demand anything. There are proper channels to go through (legally speaking) and the parents of the missing child are supposed to be the interested party so they should request something is done. Of course he can dig whatever he wants in his own garden but that's basically it. And I'm pretty sure that if he tried to dig anything in his property he would be accused of destroying evidence, making a body disappear, etc.

Yes I agree with you.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

I have put myself in Murat's place re this and to be honest I don't know what I would know. Knowing my personality, my first instinct would be to dig the damn place and say 'see, nothing there'. But I also know if he did that he would be accused of digging a body and hiding it elsewhere. I think in a way I would be afraid of the consequences. I would probably contact the authorities and say 'you are free to come here and dig whatever you want' and wait and see what would happen.

I would do similar Claudia, except I would be pushing for the authorities to come with urgency so as to end the speculation and distress. I wouldn't sit back and allow it to simmer throughout the summer whilst being given the run around. I would be both angry and chomping at the bit if I had nothing to hide.

I think also, deep down, I might harbour a fear that I was being set up by dark forces, and most especially if I had a seedy past of some kind; then I would be totally scared witless and paranoid to the hilt!

You can't push the authorities, Pennylane. That's not how it works and Murat knows it.

I see what you mean.

Well then he has just 3 choices as far as I can tell:

1) To dig it up himself... preferably with an independent witness present

2) To do as you would do, and contact the authorities... then sit back and wait; or

3) To do absolutely nothing, whilst ridiculing the mere suggestion, and leave it at that.

I've examined the geo/radar photos where Birch claims 'the earth is disturbed and there's something there......' but they are meaningless to my untrained eyes so I'm flummoxed as to their veracity. If he hasn't any credible or hard evidence, he will not succeed any further. I wonder what information he gave to the PJ and SY as to what compelled him to up sticks and head to Jenny Murat's home with his equipment? Hopefully something far more compelling than a psychic prediction or a hunch.

pennylane
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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  Claudia79 on Mon 9 Jul - 21:50

pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:

Yes I agree with you.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

I have put myself in Murat's place re this and to be honest I don't know what I would know. Knowing my personality, my first instinct would be to dig the damn place and say 'see, nothing there'. But I also know if he did that he would be accused of digging a body and hiding it elsewhere. I think in a way I would be afraid of the consequences. I would probably contact the authorities and say 'you are free to come here and dig whatever you want' and wait and see what would happen.

I would do similar Claudia, except I would be pushing for the authorities to come with urgency so as to end the speculation and distress. I wouldn't sit back and allow it to simmer throughout the summer whilst being given the run around. I would be both angry and chomping at the bit if I had nothing to hide.

I think also, deep down, I might harbour a fear that I was being set up by dark forces, and most especially if I had a seedy past of some kind; then I would be totally scared witless and paranoid to the hilt!

You can't push the authorities, Pennylane. That's not how it works and Murat knows it.

I see what you mean.

Well then he has just 3 choices as far as I can tell:

1) To dig it up himself... preferably with an independent witness present

2) To do as you would do, and contact the authorities... then sit back and wait; or

3) To do absolutely nothing, whilst ridiculing the mere suggestion, and leave it at that.

I've examined the geo/radar photos where Birch claims 'the earth is disturbed and there's something there......' but they are meaningless to my untrained eyes so I'm flummoxed as to their veracity. If he hasn't any credible or hard evidence, he will not succeed any further. I wonder what information he gave to the PJ and SY as to what compelled him to up sticks and head to Jenny Murat's home with his equipment? Hopefully something far more compelling than a psychic prediction or a hunch.

I would call the authorities or ask my lawyer to do it and tell them clearly that I would be available for anything they needed and willing to cooperate with them at any time and then wait.
I suspect it wasn't that compelling or something would have been done by now...

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  pennylane on Tue 10 Jul - 8:52

Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
pennylane wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:

I have put myself in Murat's place re this and to be honest I don't know what I would know. Knowing my personality, my first instinct would be to dig the damn place and say 'see, nothing there'. But I also know if he did that he would be accused of digging a body and hiding it elsewhere. I think in a way I would be afraid of the consequences. I would probably contact the authorities and say 'you are free to come here and dig whatever you want' and wait and see what would happen.

I would do similar Claudia, except I would be pushing for the authorities to come with urgency so as to end the speculation and distress. I wouldn't sit back and allow it to simmer throughout the summer whilst being given the run around. I would be both angry and chomping at the bit if I had nothing to hide.

I think also, deep down, I might harbour a fear that I was being set up by dark forces, and most especially if I had a seedy past of some kind; then I would be totally scared witless and paranoid to the hilt!

You can't push the authorities, Pennylane. That's not how it works and Murat knows it.

I see what you mean.

Well then he has just 3 choices as far as I can tell:

1) To dig it up himself... preferably with an independent witness present

2) To do as you would do, and contact the authorities... then sit back and wait; or

3) To do absolutely nothing, whilst ridiculing the mere suggestion, and leave it at that.

I've examined the geo/radar photos where Birch claims 'the earth is disturbed and there's something there......' but they are meaningless to my untrained eyes so I'm flummoxed as to their veracity. If he hasn't any credible or hard evidence, he will not succeed any further. I wonder what information he gave to the PJ and SY as to what compelled him to up sticks and head to Jenny Murat's home with his equipment? Hopefully something far more compelling than a psychic prediction or a hunch.

I would call the authorities or ask my lawyer to do it and tell them clearly that I would be available for anything they needed and willing to cooperate with them at any time and then wait.
I suspect it wasn't that compelling or something would have been done by now...

You would think so Claudia, but there's so much corruption surrounding this case it makes my head spin.

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  Angelique on Tue 10 Jul - 13:26

I would not know which route to take if I were Murat.

I wonder has he visited the house and looked at the supposed location? I mean really looked.

I read a post somewhere that there are tunnels under certain properties in PdL? It does sound a bit odd that this Birch chap should suddenly come forward and infer that he knows where Madeleine is buried. How does he know it's Madeleine for sure - if a search is carried out and nothing is found he is in trouble and will face charges - or will he. Someone has to report him.

Who is to say this has not been engineered by TM. That the time is right.

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  marxman on Tue 10 Jul - 14:04

Angelique wrote:I would not know which route to take if I were Murat.

I wonder has he visited the house and looked at the supposed location? I mean really looked.

I read a post somewhere that there are tunnels under certain properties in PdL? It does sound a bit odd that this Birch chap should suddenly come forward and infer that he knows where Madeleine is buried. How does he know it's Madeleine for sure - if a search is carried out and nothing is found he is in trouble and will face charges - or will he. Someone has to report him.

Who is to say this has not been engineered by TM. That the time is right.

Hi Angelique, I also was thinking that this
guy is a 'stalking horse' trying to guage the
mood for the recovery of Madeleine's remains.
But, if so, i'm not quite sure if it is TM, or the
PJ trying to rattle TM.
Birch appears very confident of his results and
of the way he acquired them, which makes me
think that he knows that he has the backing of
some major players behind him.
For him to state with certainty that it is the
remains of Madeleine, then he must have precise
and accurate information from a highly reliable
source. However, its this source that has me
baffled.

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  susible on Tue 10 Jul - 14:24

Well I wish something would be done about it sooner rather than later, hopefully stopping St Kate in her new ambassadorial role for missing people!

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Re: Stating the obvious...

Post  LJC on Tue 10 Jul - 15:30

I don't know if this point has already been made - there are so many different threads on Stephen Birch.

The point I wish to make is that if the PJ have scan images of exactly the same location of garden as Mr Birch claims to have then surely they can compare the two lots of images side by side. If the PJ and Mr Birch both concentrated on exactly the same spots in the garden, they would be able to do such a comparison.

That being the case, if the PJ scans and Mr Birch's scans are completely different, Mr Birch should be asked to explain the differences. On the other hand, if the PJ did not scan that exact same spot, then they should be asked to explain why they missed out that portion of the garden. Either way, I think one of them has some explaining to do.


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