The weakest link? DW

From Kate's 6 Sep statement:

"She mentions that when she arrived there not two, but three cots, in the same spot, and she believes that one was lent to the Payne family."

I still don't see why a nearly 3 year old would need a cot to sleep in.

IMO if DW thinks her daughters family will be implicated in any way she will be one of the stronger links unless she has a strong moral code, which I doubt or she would already have co-operated more

Her original statements are probably her weakness as she was probably unaware at that point of the truth apart from possibly a VIP guest which she agreed to keep out of it as thinking at that point irrelevant

Just my opinion

Just to add to the Granny babysitting debate side of it, as a Granny myself no way would I leave my Grandchildren alone, monitor or not. I would stay in with them if my daughter wasn't prepared to, I
wouldn't be impressed at staying in as an only adult every night but I would much rather stay in than leave the kids alone. How could you relax and enjoy yourself not knowing if your kids are safe? It doesn't make any sense to me

meg wrote:Just to add to the Granny babysitting debate side of it, as a Granny myself no way would I leave my Grandchildren alone, monitor or not. I would stay in with them if my daughter wasn't prepared to, I
wouldn't be impressed at staying in as an only adult every night but I would much rather stay in than leave the kids alone. How could you relax and enjoy yourself not knowing if your kids are safe? It doesn't make any sense to me

Well said Meg. The problem is, no one knows what's true and what's not true, because of the lies/changes of stories that have been told from the beginning.

After Kate raised the alarm, Diane Webster supposedly stayed in the Tapas Bar with the baby monitor. If Madeleine had really been abducted, one would have thought that she would have rushed back to the apartment with her grandchildren, especially when it became apparant that her daughter and son-in-law, found it more important to go to the McCanns apartment, with the others, to get their stories straight. This is one of the reasons why I have never believed Madeleine was abducted.

If Madeleine had been abducted, all of the group would have returned to their children, in case they too were in danger of being abducted. They would have taken Madeleine's abduction as a wakeup call.

I read an article online, where Gerry says that they all went looking for Madeleine as soon as the alarm was raised. He said they stayed out all night looking for her with other volunteers. This is what I mean about the lies that have been told, because when the GNR arrived at the McCanns apartment, to investigate Madeleine's disappearance, the McCanns and some, or all of the group were in the apartment. The time was 11pm, 20 minutes after the GNR received the call and 1hr after Madeleine had been supposedly been discovered missing, by her mother.

I have heard Kate say that she and Gerry went out searching for Madeleine, in the early hours of the morning and they were the only ones out searching for her, everyone else had gone home. Apparantly she says similar in her book of sex and lies.

kitti wrote:I wonder why they needed three cots and I wonder if the two beds were already occupied by 'other' children.

Good point.

kitti wrote:I wonder why they needed three cots and I wonder if the two beds were already occupied by 'other' children.

Hi Kitti

What I'm going to state next, I've already stated before on here. When Kate and Gerry were in Lisbon, trying to get Goncalo Amaral's book permanently banned, Gerry was speaking to the media about Madeleine's disappearance, on the steps of the Lisbon Court. He said "We regret leaving Madeleine alone." If Sean and Amalie had been in the apartment, I feel sure he would have said, "we regret leaving our children alone."

Sandra Felgueiras, was amongst the media and although she never said anything at the time, she interviewed Kate, some months later and she asked her why did she leave the twins alone, when she went to raise the alarm. Kate gave an answer, but she didn't give an excuse for leaving the twins. So Sandra asked her if the twins were in the apartment and Kate changed the subject, Sandra asked her again and again Kate changed the subject. Sandra didn't pursue the question, she went on to something else.

For what it's worth, I don't believe the twins were in the apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. I believe whatever happened to Madeleine, happened while David Payne was in the apartment and I think he could have been administering a sedative to Madeleine and it went horribly wrong. Of course I could be wrong and there could be another reason for Madeleine's untimely disappearance, but I still believe the twins were not in the McCanns apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared.

meg wrote:Just to add to the Granny babysitting debate side of it, as a Granny myself no way would I leave my Grandchildren alone, monitor or not. I would stay in with them if my daughter wasn't prepared to, I
wouldn't be impressed at staying in as an only adult every night but I would much rather stay in than leave the kids alone. How could you relax and enjoy yourself not knowing if your kids are safe? It doesn't make any sense to me

I'm also a granny and it would give me pleasure to stay in with my little ones and let the parents have a bit of free time, but that group had free time all the time anyway as they shunted the kids out during the day. It certainly wasn't a child friendly holiday and I can't understand why they wanted to take them in the first place if they couldn't be bothered to spend any time with them.

So to all the 'grannies' here, a big thanyou! You have quite rightly confirmed what has been niggling me about DW and her role within this group. She was not 'taken' on holiday as such, but went on her own accord, without her husband on a not-so-sunny break in May. and bunked in a shared room on a pull-out bed. IMO, if this is true, then it was the actions of a responsible grandmother wanting to over-see the care and welfare of her grandchildren, and not a granny gone to 'live it large' on a fun-filled week abroad with younger adults. So, if this also is true, then what gave DW reason to feel the need to tag along, and just do her own thing, if her main aim was not to mind the children? IMO. which I shall stand corrected, is that she was aware of previous history of worrying incidents which made her feel it important that she be there. Am I wrong?

marxman wrote:So to all the 'grannies' here, a big thanyou! You have quite rightly confirmed what has been niggling me about DW and her role within this group. She was not 'taken' on holiday as such, but went on her own accord, without her husband on a not-so-sunny break in May. and bunked in a shared room on a pull-out bed. IMO, if this is true, then it was the actions of a responsible grandmother wanting to over-see the care and welfare of her grandchildren, and not a granny gone to 'live it large' on a fun-filled week abroad with younger adults. So, if this also is true, then what gave DW reason to feel the need to tag along, and just do her own thing, if her main aim was not to mind the children? IMO. which I shall stand corrected, is that she was aware of previous history of worrying incidents which made her feel it important that she be there. Am I wrong?

"..she was aware of previous history of worrying incidents which made her feel it important that she be there. Am I wrong?"

An interesting perspective.

marxman wrote:So to all the 'grannies' here, a big thanyou! You have quite rightly confirmed what has been niggling me about DW and her role within this group. She was not 'taken' on holiday as such, but went on her own accord, without her husband on a not-so-sunny break in May. and bunked in a shared room on a pull-out bed. IMO, if this is true, then it was the actions of a responsible grandmother wanting to over-see the care and welfare of her grandchildren, and not a granny gone to 'live it large' on a fun-filled week abroad with younger adults. So, if this also is true, then what gave DW reason to feel the need to tag along, and just do her own thing, if her main aim was not to mind the children? IMO. which I shall stand corrected, is that she was aware of previous history of worrying incidents which made her feel it important that she be there. Am I wrong?

Diane Webster may have been in PDL, but she wasn't with her grandchildren, at least she wasn't with them on the night Madeleine disappeared. She was in the Tapas Bar with the rest of the group and this makes her as bad as her daughter and son-in-law.

I have been thinking about this over the past number of days. It matters not that she is the Grandmother of the children, it matters not whether she was taken on holiday or went on holiday.

The fact of the matter is she was an adult who was aware of children being left alone to fend for themselves in a foreign country night after night and she said nothing and did nothing about it (as far as I am aware). So whilst I agree they were not her responsibility, as a responsible adult she should have raised concerns about what was happening. Would she have done this if the occurrance was next door to her, with a family she did not know, I wonder ?

Many people believe that the whole leaving the children unattended scenario was just a fabrication to explain away how Madeleine was no longer there. It really is hard to believe that all four couples would have thought this was a good idea, especially when two of the children were unwell.

That would explain why Dianne Webster was unconcerned about her grandchildren.

Not Born Yesterday wrote:Many people believe that the whole leaving the children unattended scenario was just a fabrication to explain away how Madeleine was no longer there. It really is hard to believe that all four couples would have thought this was a good idea, especially when two of the children were unwell.

That would explain why Dianne Webster was unconcerned about her grandchildren.

Hi NBY, yes, I am one of those people. But just discussing DW in the context of the thread, as a normal everyday adult she should have raised concerns. Just another pointer to the fact that they were not alone every night, perhaps.

mossman wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:Many people believe that the whole leaving the children unattended scenario was just a fabrication to explain away how Madeleine was no longer there. It really is hard to believe that all four couples would have thought this was a good idea, especially when two of the children were unwell.

That would explain why Dianne Webster was unconcerned about her grandchildren.

Hi NBY, yes, I am one of those people. But just discussing DW in the context of the thread, as a normal everyday adult she should have raised concerns. Just another pointer to the fact that they were not alone every night, perhaps.

The Paynes had holidayed in a Warner resort in Greece and taken a Baby Monitor there....it was they who advised the rest to get a monitor. Tanner had taken one but it didn't work for some reason, I don't know if the Oldfields had one. I'm not reading too much into DW not checking on her grandchildren when her daughter and Son-in-Law were quite capable of doing so.and if they stuck to the 20 minutes and had a baby monitor , the children, a bit older than the McCanns would have been safe, especially as they were on the first floor in their block.

I may be imagining but I thought in the early days it was stated that Diana Websters partner was unable to go at the last minute. Maybe ..she just needed a break and decided to go alone. If true wonder if they would have had their own apartment and was it cancelled. Please don't ask for a link as I may have dreamt it over the years

Found this Krisy

4078 ”You’ve just given me your address, and what’s your connection to the group that went on holiday?”

Reply ”Err I’m Fiona PAYNE’S mother.”


4078 ”And how much, I say how much did you have to do with the group before, you know have you been away with the group before?”

Reply ”Oh no, no and originally err my recollection is that the, the holiday that, that err we eventually went on err I think originally it was Fiona and Dave that err booked it and invited me and my husband along if we wanted to go on it. He didn’t want to go because its not his sort of holiday and then later on it err it grew that there was other, other people going along as well, which I was unaware of at the time and err I sort of said to Dave well you know if you’ve got friends going forget about me, you know, I won’t, I won’t come and he said no, no you must come along and so that’s how I came to be on the holiday.”


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

Krisy22 wrote:I may be imagining but I thought in the early days it was stated that Diana Websters partner was unable to go at the last minute. Maybe ..she just needed a break and decided to go alone. If true wonder if they would have had their own apartment and was it cancelled. Please don't ask for a link as I may have dreamt it over the years

Hi Krisy22, yes, it has been mentioned that he backed olut and there was an empty apartment on the block the rest of the Group were in so maybe that was meant for DW. Since she was sleeping in the Lounge in the Payne's apartment it may have been because she didn't want to stay in the Apartment on her own.

cherry1 wrote:Found this Krisy

4078 ”You’ve just given me your address, and what’s your connection to the group that went on holiday?”

Reply ”Err I’m Fiona PAYNE’S mother.”


4078 ”And how much, I say how much did you have to do with the group before, you know have you been away with the group before?”

Reply ”Oh no, no and originally err my recollection is that the, the holiday that, that err we eventually went on err I think originally it was Fiona and Dave that err booked it and invited me and my husband along if we wanted to go on it. He didn’t want to go because its not his sort of holiday and then later on it err it grew that there was other, other people going along as well, which I was unaware of at the time and err I sort of said to Dave well you know if you’ve got friends going forget about me, you know, I won’t, I won’t come and he said no, no you must come along and so that’s how I came to be on the holiday.”


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

Thank you Cherry ...knew I had seen the husband mentioned somewhere. I do find it strange then that she went on that holiday with all the others being couples.

what amazes me is all the .....errs....... in their statements

Panda wrote:

Krisy22 wrote:I may be imagining but I thought in the early days it was stated that Diana Websters partner was unable to go at the last minute. Maybe ..she just needed a break and decided to go alone. If true wonder if they would have had their own apartment and was it cancelled. Please don't ask for a link as I may have dreamt it over the years

Hi Krisy22, yes, it has been mentioned that he backed olut and there was an empty apartment on the block the rest of the Group were in so maybe that was meant for DW. Since she was sleeping in the Lounge in the Payne's apartment it may have been because she didn't want to stay in the Apartment on her own.

Hi Panda ...Really seems strange she would want to go with those couples ..different if she was going to do a stint of babyminding...but seems not.

cherry1 wrote:what amazes me is all the .....errs....... in their statements

Yes it is amazing cherry for professional people . Really cant understand it as they are communicating with people all the time.

[/quote]

The Paynes had holidayed in a Warner resort in Greece and taken a Baby Monitor there....it was they who advised the rest to get a monitor. Tanner had taken one but it didn't work for some reason, I don't know if the Oldfields had one. I'm not reading too much into DW not checking on her grandchildren when her daughter and Son-in-Law were quite capable of doing so.and if they stuck to the 20 minutes and had a baby monitor , the children, a bit older than the McCanns would have been safe, especially as they were on the first floor in their block.[/quote] Panda

The Payne children were actually younger, from memory around nearly 3 years and 10 months.

Panda wrote:

mossman wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:Many people believe that the whole leaving the children unattended scenario was just a fabrication to explain away how Madeleine was no longer there. It really is hard to believe that all four couples would have thought this was a good idea, especially when two of the children were unwell.

That would explain why Dianne Webster was unconcerned about her grandchildren.

Hi NBY, yes, I am one of those people. But just discussing DW in the context of the thread, as a normal everyday adult she should have raised concerns. Just another pointer to the fact that they were not alone every night, perhaps.

The Paynes had holidayed in a Warner resort in Greece and taken a Baby Monitor there....it was they who advised the rest to get a monitor. Tanner had taken one but it didn't work for some reason, I don't know if the Oldfields had one. I'm not reading too much into DW not checking on her grandchildren when her daughter and Son-in-Law were quite capable of doing so.and if they stuck to the 20 minutes and had a baby monitor , the children, a bit older than the McCanns would have been safe, especially as they were on the first floor in their block.

I understand that Madeleine, who was 3yrs and 11 months old, was the eldest of all the children who went on that holiday. However whether she was or wasn't isn't the issue. None of these children, were old enough to take responsibility for their own welfare and just because the Paynes used a baby monitor, doesn't make them anymore responsible than those who didn't use one.

I still think Diane Webster, should have taken responsibility for her grandchildren, when it was quite clear her daughter and son-in-law, like the rest of this group, didn't give a stuff about their childrens welfare. Always assuming that all of these children, were left alone in their apartments.