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The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

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The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  malena stool on Wed 27 Feb - 20:21

One of the points I’m not clear on is the validity of canine evidence in Portuguese courts regarding the detection of blood and cadaverine in the McCann’s apartment, cadaverine on the soil outside the apartment, on Kate’s clothes, and both blood and cadaverine in the hire car which was rented I forget how many days after Madeleine went missing.
Any ideas anyone?

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  AnnaEsse on Wed 27 Feb - 20:42

malena stool wrote:One of the points I’m not clear on is the validity of canine evidence in Portuguese courts regarding the detection of blood and cadaverine in the McCann’s apartment, cadaverine on the soil outside the apartment, on Kate’s clothes, and both blood and cadaverine in the hire car which was rented I forget how many days after Madeleine went missing.
Any ideas anyone?

Well, there was the report that stated that 15 out of 19 markers matched Madeleine's DNA but that wasn't thought to be sufficient for Portuguese courts I think.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  margaret on Wed 27 Feb - 20:44

Good question malena. In UK we've recently had at least one murder where no body has been found but plenty of circumstantial and cadaver/blood dog evidence.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  AnnaEsse on Wed 27 Feb - 20:46

margaret wrote:Good question malena. In UK we've recently had at least one murder where no body has been found but plenty of circumstantial and cadaver/blood dog evidence.

It does seem that in at least a few cases the very fact of the cadaver dog(s) alaerting has been taken as valid evidence

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  wjk on Wed 27 Feb - 21:36

AnnaEsse wrote:
margaret wrote:Good question malena. In UK we've recently had at least one murder where no body has been found but plenty of circumstantial and cadaver/blood dog evidence.

It does seem that in at least a few cases the very fact of the cadaver dog(s) alaerting has been taken as valid evidence
Yes, I trust those dogs 100%!
And ONLY on the Mc's belongings!

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  malena stool on Wed 27 Feb - 22:19

The amount of reports in the news recently where dogs have saved lives or located vital evidence is certainly highlighting the accuracy and importance of their unspoken testimony.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  cass on Thu 28 Feb - 8:12

yes didnt someone from the uk police say in the early days to the mcanns 15 out of 19 markers is good enough for a confiction outside portugal -- thing is if someone had told me that there was death scent in the room where i had left my kids and nobody had died there before -- you would be scraping me off the floor -- but we get all this crap about kate being near 6 dead bodys at work -- that can be proved to be lies can it not -- and who takes clothes on holiday they have worn at work like that -- even if she had been near dead bodys --lie -- hadnt she washed them before going away

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  Lioned on Thu 28 Feb - 19:57

The dogs evidence together with kates 'pants of ganga' denials would have been enough to send her to jail.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  malena stool on Thu 28 Feb - 21:59

Lioned wrote:The dogs evidence together with kates 'pants of ganga' denials would have been enough to send her to jail.
I still have to chuckle to myself when I read, 'kate's pants of ganga'

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  matthew on Thu 28 Feb - 22:37

malena stool wrote:One of the points I’m not clear on is the validity of canine evidence in Portuguese courts regarding the detection of blood and cadaverine in the McCann’s apartment, cadaverine on the soil outside the apartment, on Kate’s clothes, and both blood and cadaverine in the hire car which was rented I forget how many days after Madeleine went missing.
Any ideas anyone?

In the UK/USA we have heard of cases where no body no dna/forensics together with other circumstantial evidence has resulted in a conviction so we can compare this case to them but has there ever been a case in Portugal where EVRD have been used,Mark Harrison suggested to the PJ to accept the dogs so im assuming they had not been used there upto that point in time,have not heard if they been used there since?
The amount of different places where Eddie alerted for the scent he was trained for is imo overwhelming circumstantial evidence,would surely be enough with other circumstantial evidence to have cps take this to crown here & USA...used to be reminded about... Show me the body quote

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  Lioned on Thu 28 Feb - 22:43

You can never get an intelligent debate with child neglecting sympathisers when it comes to those clever dogs.

I wonder how many dogs have saved lives and helped to solve criminal cases.

Thats apart from all those brave dogs that can sniff out drugs and explosives.

And also those dogs that are trained to open doors,answer the phone and generally act as Carers for the disabled.

You cannot argue with that.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  malena stool on Fri 1 Mar - 19:58

Lioned wrote:You can never get an intelligent debate with child neglecting sympathisers when it comes to those clever dogs.

I wonder how many dogs have saved lives and helped to solve criminal cases.

Thats apart from all those brave dogs that can sniff out drugs and explosives.

And also those dogs that are trained to open doors,answer the phone and generally act as Carers for the disabled.

You cannot argue with that.
As Dr Gerry said, "Ask the dogs".

The dog's actions have spoken far louder and plainer than his petulant words ever could.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  xtina on Fri 1 Mar - 20:18

malena stool wrote:
Lioned wrote:You can never get an intelligent debate with child neglecting sympathisers when it comes to those clever dogs.

I wonder how many dogs have saved lives and helped to solve criminal cases.

Thats apart from all those brave dogs that can sniff out drugs and explosives.

And also those dogs that are trained to open doors,answer the phone and generally act as Carers for the disabled.

You cannot argue with that.
As Dr Gerry said, "Ask the dogs".

The dog's actions have spoken far louder and plainer than his petulant words ever could.

and dogs [bless um]..dont lie

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  cherry1 on Fri 1 Mar - 21:03

This was tweeted tonight


ERPDF‏@ERPDF

POLICE DOG HANDLERS - with their expertise the combination of Human with Trained Dog is a unique & powerful asset in the fight against crime


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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  malena stool on Fri 1 Mar - 21:35

cherry1 wrote:This was tweeted tonight


ERPDF‏@ERPDF

POLICE DOG HANDLERS - with their expertise the combination of Human with Trained Dog is a unique & powerful asset in the fight against crime

Dr Gerry's haemorrhoids may well start to tingle if police handlers and their canines continue to receive that sort of recognition.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  margaret on Fri 1 Mar - 21:49

malena stool wrote:
cherry1 wrote:This was tweeted tonight


ERPDF‏@ERPDF

POLICE DOG HANDLERS - with their expertise the combination of Human with Trained Dog is a unique & powerful asset in the fight against crime

Dr Gerry's haemorrhoids may well start to tingle if police handlers and their canines continue to receive that sort of recognition.



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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  SashaM on Fri 1 Mar - 23:00

cass wrote:yes didnt someone from the uk police say in the early days to the mcanns 15 out of 19 markers is good enough for a confiction outside portugal -- thing is if someone had told me that there was death scent in the room where i had left my kids and nobody had died there before -- you would be scraping me off the floor -- but we get all this crap about kate being near 6 dead bodys at work -- that can be proved to be lies can it not -- and who takes clothes on holiday they have worn at work like that -- even if she had been near dead bodys --lie -- hadnt she washed them before going away
I remember a similar quote too. One thing I would like to say is that out of everything there is no doubting Eddie and Keela...and what makes it more suspicious for something being underhanded is the way that excuses were made to explain the dogs indications. If it were me, and as awful the possible findings, I would want to know. I would not be making excuses.

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  Loopdaloop on Fri 1 Mar - 23:39

malena stool wrote:One of the points I’m not clear on is the validity of canine evidence in Portuguese courts regarding the detection of blood and cadaverine in the McCann’s apartment, cadaverine on the soil outside the apartment, on Kate’s clothes, and both blood and cadaverine in the hire car which was rented I forget how many days after Madeleine went missing.
Any ideas anyone?

Weirdly... I was on the telegraph site and they were advertising this under their 'other stories'
I saw it as i was leaving the page and got excited but it had disapeared and i googled and came up with the following from 2008, however it was updated just now!!! Weird!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1562710/Madeleine-McCann-DNA-an-accurate-match.html
Fri 1 Mar 2013 Updated 6 mins ago



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Home » News »
Madeleine McCann DNA 'an accurate match'
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By Gordon Rayner, Caroline Gammell and Nick Britten3:36PM BST 12 Apr 2008
DNA samples that are a "100 per cent match" to Madeleine McCann have been found in her parents' hire car and holiday apartment, it has been claimed.

Friends who are convinced of the couple's innocence
Confusion that surrounds the fateful hours
Have your say: Are the McCanns right to return home? | Read comments


Sources close to the case said the traces - understood to be blood - were being treated by Portuguese detectives as strong evidence that Madeleine died in the apartment before her body was placed in the car.

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Police in the Algarve apparently now believe they have enough evidence to charge her parents, Kate and Gerry, with "accidentally" killing the four-year-old and hiding her body. A file on the case will today be sent to a prosecutor who could order the couple to return to Portugal to face charges this week.

The McCanns, who were named last week as official suspects in the case, have claimed that they were being "framed" over their daughter's disappearance 131 days ago.

But a source close to the Portuguese investigation said that the prevailing mood among detectives was that: "The parents have a lot of explaining to do."

The source claimed that two DNA samples found in the McCanns' hire car - one apparently a full match to Madeleine and one partial - were of a type that suggested they had come directly from her body, rather than from clothes she had worn.

The development came as:

Social workers and police met to discuss the welfare of the McCanns' two-year-old twins, who could be placed on an "at-risk" register.
Police in Praia da Luz were preparing to search the villa where the McCanns had been staying until Sunday.
Kate McCann faced fresh slurs in the Portuguese media, with claims that she was aggressive towards her children and sometimes "out of control".
The McCanns were given police advice on how to deal with hate mail after a backlash against them gathered pace in Britain.
The McCanns have vowed to fight to clear their names, and hired two of the country's leading solicitors, Michael Caplan QC and Angus McBride, to advise them.

Sources close to the investigation revealed that the DNA evidence - analysed by the Forensic Science Service in Britain - was regarded by Portuguese police as crucial.

A sample that was a full match to Madeleine's DNA was allegedly found on the windowsill of the McCanns' apartment at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Although the nature of the sample was not disclosed, previous reports claimed that blood had been found by sniffer dogs.

One Portuguese newspaper claimed that "biological fluids" with an 80 per cent match to Madeleine were found under the carpet in the boot of the McCanns' hire car, which was rented 25 days after she disappeared.

Forensic experts in the UK have pointed out that if the samples found in the car were hair or skin they would be of little evidential value as they could have rubbed off Madeleine's toys or clothing.

But there were fresh reports claiming that both samples were blood, and one source close to the inquiry told The Daily Telegraph that the nature of the samples led police to believe that they had come from Madeleine's body being placed in the car.

Video: Gerry McCann's statement at airport
Full coverage: The search for Madeleine McCann
The Portuguese police's theory is apparently that Madeleine was killed by accident by one or both of her parents, and that her body was hidden before being disposed of a month later using the hire car.

The McCanns have reacted with fury to the claims, accusing the police of a "stitch-up" and pointing out that they could not have moved a body when the eyes of the world were constantly upon them in the weeks after Madeleine's disappearance.

Their distress was heightened when it emerged that Leicestershire's child protection team met to discuss the welfare of their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie, who could be placed on an "at-risk" register if they were considered to be vulnerable.

Social workers were expected to visit the family home in the village of Rothley this week to assess whether the children were being cared for properly and whether they had been in any way traumatised by the events of the past four months.

Child welfare experts said social services were obliged to investigate any case where parents were suspected by police of harming their children, and that placing the twins in foster care could become an option if the McCanns were charged or forced to return to Portugal for long periods.

Police in Portimao were expected to hand over a file on the case to a senior prosecutor, who would decide whether to bring charges or order further inquiries.

Officers were poised to search the villa that the McCanns had been renting for the past three months, and which they vacated on Sunday when they flew back to Britain for the first time since Madeleine's disappearance.

The couple have been subjected to constant smears in the Portuguese press, but there is also evidence that public sympathy in the UK may be on the wane.

Police confirmed an officer had discussed "security issues" with the McCanns amid fears that they would receive hate mail, and a BBC Radio 5 Live phone-in debate on the subject of "do you support the McCanns" was abandoned after a large number of messages condemning them were followed by demands from listeners that an ongoing police investigation should not be the subject of a radio phone-in.


Why are they editing the story?!?
I do believe the story... I dont believe the paper or the source made it up so what happened is thr big question! If it ever does get back to court it is rvident the dna will play a part.

The mccanns taking Tony Bennett to court is a farce considering that he is not a primary source for any information at all!!he is a conduit like google but without the reach. He is an interesting commentator but what is evident is that he was hitting quite close to home with the information he shared!


Last edited by Loopdaloop on Fri 1 Mar - 23:55; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

Post  cass on Sat 2 Mar - 8:42

there is a lot of stuff that has been whooshed over the years --problem is its like did i really read that -- but then it works both ways too --the mcanns have to be good at remembering what was said -- imo thats why they arnt seen much in interviews -- they ALWAYS put their foot in it -- and as for clarrie -- martin brunt interviews -- jane hill on sky -- the internet is a wonderful thing -- they can whoosh what they want but this case is too big to be burried

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Re: The validity of canine evidence in Portugal

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