Missing Madeleine
Come join us...there's more inside you cannot see as a guest!

How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  Panda on Mon 2 Dec - 13:29

pipstar1 wrote:Yes Panda, but "someone"  could have been seen carrying M out at some point of time?  Do you think that is possible?
Yes, it's possible , and presumably the Portugese Police went around the OC asking if anyone had seen a
person carrying a child . For an outrageous scenario , this is what I think. Gerry did check at 9pm saw Madeleine lying dead on the Floor behind the settee, put her body in the Wardrobe until such time as it could be moved. This is why the McCanns were kneeling on the bed "crying" as a distraction when the first Police stood by the door of the Bedroom. watching them , because they were spending the night in another Apartment , Gerry would have sneaked off with Madeleine in the Tennis bag hidden it in a cave on the Beach until the car was hired, and Madeleine's blood was found on the wheelbase . Sounds horrible I know, but Madeleine was weighted down with stones and her body, still in the Tennis bag, tossed into the sea.

Panda
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Female
Number of posts : 30555
Age : 59
Location : Wales
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  wjk on Mon 2 Dec - 13:59

jinvta wrote:The most interesting part about this blog is not the method of how the child was being carried, but Redwood's statement:
 
"As we observe the movements of the group, which continues up until around twenty-to, quarter-to ten, it brings into sharp focus a second sighting.."
 
Notice the timing in this statement. Redwood is stating that the meal was wrapped up by 2140/2145, which coincides with what most of the independent witnesses have stated. It is only the Tapas group that can place Gerry at the table at 2200. Not a single MW employee can be sure that Gerry was at the table when the meals were served.
 
This is HUGE! Gerry has not been ruled out as Smithman, though he may have been led to believe that he has. He did have the time to carry Madeleine away sometime between 2140 and 2200 and return to the apartment before the official alarm was raised.
 
I do not believe that Redwood made up this crecheman. He likely does in fact exist, and may very well have been taking his daughter to the creche at 2030/2115 rather than picking her up. The children needed to be asleep in the creche, so he may have carried her this way in order to least disturb her slumber on the short trip.
 
I don't think that anyone believes the Tanner sighting anyway. Perhaps it is even true that Tanner has changed her story, and this is Redwoods way of getting her out of it. Or it is also possible that Redwood knows Tanner is lying, but is giving her a free pass by saying that he believes her, but that her sighting is no longer significant as the person whom she saw has been ruled out. The truth is that there is no way that anyone can be sure that the Tanner sighting (if true) and crecheman (if he does in fact exist) are even the same person.
 Great post jinvta!

wjk
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Female
Number of posts : 7812
Age : 51
Location : Manchester
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2009-08-20

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  Panda on Mon 2 Dec - 14:00

pipstar1 wrote:Yes Panda, but "someone"  could have been seen carrying M out at some point of time?  Do you think that is possible?
No I don't sorry.  I have posted the scenario I think , namely that Gerry hid Madeleine's body in the Tennis bag and while everyone else was searching for Madeleine he took the bag to the Beach where there are caves and hid it until it could be disposed of permanently.

Panda
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Female
Number of posts : 30555
Age : 59
Location : Wales
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  jinvta on Mon 2 Dec - 21:35

I think that Gerry may have temporarily hidden Madeleine sometime between 2140 and 2200, possibly in the tennis bag and near or on the beach, and then returned at 0400 to dispose of her permanently or pass her body onto someone else who then disposed of her. The PJ were particularly interested in the hours of 0415 - 0600 on 4 May. I believe Kate and Gerry stayed up all night waiting for everyone to go back to bed before heading out alone and disposing of her body.

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t8225-mobile-phone-analysis


RECOMMENDATIONS (Report page 60)

Given the above, it is recommended:

To determine either from the couple, or from other sources, where they were in the periods between 4:15 and 6:00am and between 7:15 and 7:45am on 5th. [NOTE: This is an error in the report. It should be 'on 4th']

To determine from the various television stations and print media, if the coverage of the activities of the McCann couple occurred for 24 hours a day, and whether, if so, they were followed in the different trips they made.
.

jinvta
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Number of posts : 1065
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-01-18

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  widowan on Mon 2 Dec - 21:55

jinvta wrote:The most interesting part about this blog is not the method of how the child was being carried, but Redwood's statement:
 
"As we observe the movements of the group, which continues up until around twenty-to, quarter-to ten, it brings into sharp focus a second sighting.."
 
Notice the timing in this statement. Redwood is stating that the meal was wrapped up by 2140/2145, which coincides with what most of the independent witnesses have stated. It is only the Tapas group that can place Gerry at the table at 2200. Not a single MW employee can be sure that Gerry was at the table when the meals were served.
 
This is HUGE! Gerry has not been ruled out as Smithman, though he may have been led to believe that he has. He did have the time to carry Madeleine away sometime between 2140 and 2200 and return to the apartment before the official alarm was raised.
 
I do not believe that Redwood made up this crecheman. He likely does in fact exist, and may very well have been taking his daughter to the creche at 2030/2115 rather than picking her up. The children needed to be asleep in the creche, so he may have carried her this way in order to least disturb her slumber on the short trip.
 
I don't think that anyone believes the Tanner sighting anyway. Perhaps it is even true that Tanner has changed her story, and this is Redwoods way of getting her out of it. Or it is also possible that Redwood knows Tanner is lying, but is giving her a free pass by saying that he believes her, but that her sighting is no longer significant as the person whom she saw has been ruled out. The truth is that there is no way that anyone can be sure that the Tanner sighting (if true) and crecheman (if he does in fact exist) are even the same person.
The big thing is the timing if Redwood actually puts it at 940. Carpenter's wife heard the calls after they left the Tapas bar at 930 on their way home which makes 940 a good time when someone discovered something that allows them or spurs them to call out her name repeatedly. It corresponds with their waiter who said they left between 930 and 945.

It makes Gerry well able to be Smithman, as you say - given Gerry found her in the apt, dead for probably at that point something like a half hour to an hour - (if not more, if they didn't check the kids after they put them to bed at 730 and just listened at the door and hearing nothing were not aware that Maddie had gotten up and "hurt herself" behind the sofa even before they left the apt) -

he could have panicked, failing to rouse her and seeing there was no hope, understanding immediately what risk they were at - took her away from the apt so they could say she was abducted rather than died there "while they were out" especially if she had sedative in her body - which would clearly be the end of his career and family - having drugged a child to leave her alone - Kate's father had said they gave the kids Calpol to make them sleep, had she been found with a lot of Calpol in her at least one person would know who did that, and what the result was.


widowan
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Number of posts : 3378
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-08-23

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  widowan on Mon 2 Dec - 22:13

pipstar1 wrote:I apologise for posting the link to this dreadful image, but it shows that a deceased child can be carried this way.  Could JT have seen "someone" carrying out M like this?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/11/article-2501471-19594E8400000578-211_964x676.jpg
This is the typical way you seen people carrying dead children unfortunately, god help them; we've seen enough natural disasters and bombings that have people carrying a body like this. An unconscious child would likely to be carried this way also I think.

However - I think the fact that SY says they found the person who was carrying a child is something I will accept given that PJ can also access those crèche records and interview those same families and if no one had a 3-4 year old child they carried home near 5 A, that would be too risky for SY to make this up. Especially as they want a joint investigation, the first thing the PJ would want was the new info, about this man Jane saw that Sy found the identity of, and the files they found with the efits, from Halligen's subcontractors. Sy can hardly expect to find "new information" that can help crack the case and then not hand it over.

widowan
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Number of posts : 3378
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-08-23

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  widowan on Mon 2 Dec - 22:20

Panda wrote:
pipstar1 wrote:I apologise for posting the link to this dreadful image, but it shows that a deceased child can be carried this way.  Could JT have seen "someone" carrying out M like this?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/11/article-2501471-19594E8400000578-211_964x676.jpg
Hi pipstar 1  apparently, according to the Waiters Jane Tanner wasn't even in the Restaurant that night.!!! Redwood actually dismisses Tanners' claim and  said that no one had checked on the McCann children between 9 and 10 pm. Leaving plenty of time for an Abductor.
He does not dismiss her claim - he validates it. He says they found who it was. They say it's not the abductor because they know who it was in fact, another parent - not that Jane did not see this person carrying a child - in fact they do their own photo reconstruction that shows this person in the clothes he wore that night, and show how this was the guy jane saw, they even have the kid's pajama bottoms which are similar in cut not color to the ones MM was supposedly wearing.

Regardless of what Jane saw, they clearly accept Gerry's claim that he checked at 9 PM since they put the timeline from 9 to ten. Although even there it's problematic as Gerry left the table at 9 supposedly or a bit after and checked on her, etc etc for a few moments.

If Gerry had not checked, if SY did not believe that, they'd have put the time from 830 to ten, but that would queer any chance of having TM cooperate!


widowan
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Number of posts : 3378
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-08-23

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  widowan on Mon 2 Dec - 22:28

jinvta wrote:I think that Gerry may have temporarily hidden Madeleine sometime between 2140 and 2200, possibly in the tennis bag and near or on the beach, and then returned at 0400 to dispose of her permanently or pass her body onto someone else who then disposed of her. The PJ were particularly interested in the hours of 0415 - 0600 on 4 May. I believe Kate and Gerry stayed up all night waiting for everyone to go back to bed before heading out alone and disposing of her body.

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t8225-mobile-phone-analysis


RECOMMENDATIONS (Report page 60)

Given the above, it is recommended:

To determine either from the couple, or from other sources, where they were in the periods between 4:15 and 6:00am and between 7:15 and 7:45am on 5th. [NOTE: This is an error in the report. It should be 'on 4th']

To determine from the various television stations and print media, if the coverage of the activities of the McCann couple occurred for 24 hours a day, and whether, if so, they were followed in the different trips they made.
.
But why have him going between 940 and ten, if not to coincide with Smith sighting - at 955? If Maddie were not being carried as Smith says she was (or someone like her was, by someone like Gerry) and was in a tennis bag then that sighting too is a red herring or at least just another dad carrying his kid home who chose not to become involved when a child his own daughter's age had been kidnapped -

if Smith saw Gerry, then Maddie wasn't in a tennis bag.

If Smith did not see Gerry carrying Maddie then the time when Gerry took her out - and the path - is unknown although could be 945 and back at ten or later - Gerry ran about "looking" for her at the Tapas playground etc and they did not search in tandem. Smith man was heading in the direction of the sea. at a time when Gerry could have taken maddie out. The natural place to go is downhill, towards a place where you assume or know a body could be hidden  - in the sea, in the sand buried... in a group of abandoned flats...

widowan
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Number of posts : 3378
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-08-23

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  widowan on Mon 2 Dec - 23:04

My scenarios are two fold:

1 McCanns gave the kids a lot of Calpol in the milk to avoid further crying incidents on Maddie's part - or the waking of the twins if such did occur, and to "help them sleep"

Maddie was in fact dead asleep and so were the twins and some one either planned an abduction, knowing the kids were there and unlocked in a flat because they had watched, and getting lucky that maddie was in fact so deeply under that she did not waken (or they kept a hand over her mouth, or they told her they were taking her to mummy) - not planned as in Pan-European pedo ring but just some hideous person who had seen and wanted this child and knew he could get her and did in fact get her. Between 830 and 930, and carried her off (not probable - in that he'd have carried her to a waiting vehicle)

the flat was staged because the parents did not want the cops to know they'd left the kids unlocked and wanted to claim doors locked and entrance via window

the checks were staged because the parents did not want the cops/family to know they hadn't been responsible and the other Tapasniks didn't want to be seen to be neglectful either

the dogs were wrong, or the dogs reacted to handlers' signals.

2. McCanns gave the kids the Calpol, Maddie was not in fact "asleep in seconds" after 730 PM but got up to look for them and not seeing them in the lounge and not thinking to look on the balcony or too stoned from the medication that she fell behind the sofa and aspirated on her vomit or broke her neck, unseen and unheard behind there,

parents left at 830 , not checking the kids visually when they went - as Kate was asked if they were asleep when they left and she did not answer with certainty - she THOUGHT so

or they did see her at 830 but she awoke upon hearing them leaving and went to see out the window and fell

no one checked again until after 9 PM - if Gerry did check at 9 he did not do a visual check but only a listening check? or did find her dead, moved her body into the closet area and cleaned the area behind the door if there was vomit/blood there; put cleaning rags in the tennis bag?

Madeleine could have been dead for more than an hour at that time. Enough to leave the scent the dogs hit upon.

he could have found her dead then probably after he spoke with Jez since he likely would not have been out chatting, with a dead toddler upstairs - but Jez isn't sure of the time either 830-930

Madeleine was found missing around 930-940 when Carpenter's heard her name being shouted, inside the Tapas 9 an alarm was raised (not the official alarm that had people out looking all over for an abducted child, and police called) giving time for Gerry to get out of there

Gerry in a panic carried her to somewhere just to get her out of the apt since to be found in that situation would be doom for them - he did this while "out looking" for her, there were several occasions for that from 930 to ten and again at 4 or 5 AM

they called someone for help, or texted each other in such a way that the texts were incriminating, thus had to be deleted (possibly because the timing was not what they were going to say it was, ie after ten pm, based on their fake schedule of checks now proven false by SY)

they colluded with the others to delete texts because the timing worked for all of them to say they'd been checking regularly and to find a flurry of texts at 930 would not work with the idea that Matt saw maddie at 930

They either went out in the wee hours and moved her body or met someone who did. Probably in a bag at that time, 8 hour old corpse is not something you would carry around hoping people would not notice rigor, etc. Kate has them jumping over fences and looking in holes etc which would account for the state of their clothes if found to be covered in dust/dirt from going to the beach, up the hills




widowan
Platinum Poster
Platinum Poster

Number of posts : 3378
Warning :
0 / 1000 / 100

Registration date : 2010-08-23

Back to top Go down

Re: How to carry a child.../Unterdenteppichgekehrt

Post  Sponsored content Today at 9:50


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum