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Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

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Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  interested on Wed 5 Feb - 2:07

Blacksmith's latest dated Tuesday, 4 February 2014 deals with "....horrid bespectacled zombie...." with a picture of Dr. Payne.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  T4two on Wed 5 Feb - 6:38

interested wrote:Blacksmith's latest dated Tuesday, 4 February 2014 deals with "....horrid bespectacled zombie...." with a picture of Dr. Payne.



http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.de/

Interesting appraisal of the questions surrounding the Payne visit on the evening of May 3rd.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  marxman on Wed 5 Feb - 8:37

Is it usual to have a shower whilst supervising three young children?

This sounds to me like a porky......but why?

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  Not Born Yesterday on Wed 5 Feb - 10:07

She also claims to have had a bath before going out, if I recall correctly.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  T4two on Wed 5 Feb - 10:32

Shower and bath - whether it makes sense to have both could depend on what happened in between?

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  ann_chovey on Wed 5 Feb - 14:14

T4two wrote:Shower and bath - whether it makes sense to have both could depend on what happened in between?

Precisely!

The nub of the matter i.m.o. and not addressed at all by Redwood.
Not only is 6.30 the natural start of any timeline of that evening’s events – and  Mr Redwood is very hot on timelines – but the meeting is of huge significance: the very last time that anyone other than the parents claims to have seen Madeleine alive.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  jinvta on Wed 5 Feb - 16:24

Exactly! It is plainly clear that this visit either never took place OR there was a different purpose for this visit. Neither the PJ NOR SY have investigated this visit thouroughly enough, if at all, given its importance to the timeline. The McCanns had already decided while bathing their children that the children were too tired to bring them down to the tennis courts that night, so Gerry would not have forgotten this decision and sent someone else up to see if the kids had gotten their second wind.

Too many unnecessary details in this visit as well, such as all of the children dressed in white. I don't remember my son having any white pajamas, and Madeleine's certainly were not white. Also, it is important to note that this visit was not mentioned in any of the early interviews of Gerry, Kate, or David. It appears to have only been added later in order to explain something away or provide an innocent explanation for something. But what? Didn't Fiona even state at one point that she went with David on this visit? A clear indication that the visit was entirely fabricated.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  ann_chovey on Wed 5 Feb - 17:25

F.P. rogatory....alibi alert!!

“Erm, yeah, I mean, Gerry, phew, I don’t know who was playing who, but there was certainly Gerry, Matt, erm, you know, Russ and Dave, erm, and typically being men, it was all quite competitive and, erm, and far different to the women’s tennis. Erm, Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren’t there and, you know, they, as Gerry said, were just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed. Erm, and, yeah, the others, sort of me, Rachael and Jane, with the kids, our kids, were just sort of watching them playing for a bit, we didn’t stay that long that night”.


1485
“Yeah. When did Gerry tell you that the kids were knackered and Kate was bathing them?”


Reply
“I think that was something I learnt later or whether he told me at the time, I know they weren’t there and it didn’t really, it wasn’t really that surprising, as I say, we were a bit later getting there that night, whereas, on previous nights, when we’d had a playtime, it was immediately after the kids high tea”.

00.27.21
1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“So, you know, it wasn’t a surprise that they weren’t there. Erm, and I know Dave had said to me later, because he, erm, after tennis he’d said he’d checked on Kate and the kids before going to tennis”.


1485
“Who was that, sorry, Dave?”


Reply
“Dave, yeah. So he’d mentioned that later, so I don’t know at what point I knew that, but”.


1485
“Was that off his own back or was he told?”


Reply
“No, he said, what did he check off his own back?”


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“I don’t know actually, I don’t know”.


1485
“How did that come into your conversation?”


Reply
“Because he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children, because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas, having a story”.


1485
“Yeah. But when did he, specifically, when did he tell you?”


Reply
“That he’d done that?”


1485
“Done that, yeah”.


Reply
“I think it was when we were getting the kids ready for bed and we were back in our apartment”.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  wantthetruth on Wed 5 Feb - 18:10

marxman wrote:Is it usual to have a shower whilst supervising three young children?

This sounds to me like a porky......but why?

How on earth do us single mum's keep clean and hygenic hey? Given it's apparently not allowed to shower whilst looking after kids.

Sheesh........

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  LJC on Wed 5 Feb - 20:21

wantthetruth wrote:
marxman wrote:Is it usual to have a shower whilst supervising three young children?

This sounds to me like a porky......but why?

How on earth do us single mum's keep clean and hygenic hey?  Given it's apparently not allowed to shower whilst looking after kids.

Sheesh........

Of course its usual. Millions of women worldwide have to shower or bathe either because they are single moms, or their husbands work unsocial hours, etc.

However, what I would think was unusual would be to answer the door just wearing a towel around you. Even if you think its one of the gang on holiday at your door, wouldn't you shout, "hang on a sec. just making myself decent" and at least do something more than drape a towel around your person. What if it had been a member of staff from the complex?

Unless of course you were hoping for a visit from someone who you wanted to be wearing just a towel for?

And of course this whole business of Gerry asking Dave to check on Kate and the kids sounds out of the usual to my mind. Why wouldn't Gerry just ring her from his mobile. Surely he would have his phone handy somewhere near whilst playing tennis?

What would Dave have done anyway if when checking he found the children to be screaming and crying? Would he have helped to get them bathed and ready for bed?

We'll never know but if Dave enjoyed bathing other people's children he may have offered his services in the hope that Kate needed assistance, rather than Gerry asking him. If Gerry can't even remember where he was standing when talking to Wilkins out on the road then I also don't think he could remember the precise details of how Dave's check actually came about.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  jinvta on Thu 6 Feb - 6:42

From Kate's 6 Sep Rogatory Interview:

"They arrived at the apartment at around 5:40 p.m., earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00 p.m. At the apartment they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00 p.m. Gerry went to the tennis courts, right after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered through the same door.

After the children’s bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, and gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness."

Was this a Freudian slip by Kate? She mentions dressing the twins after the bath, but no mention of Madeleine at all. She also makes it clear that her and Gerry had considered taking the kids to the rec area, but had decided not too because the kids (at least Madeleine) were tired. How could Gerry have forgotten this conversation only 30-45 minutes later?

Fiona also seems to have got the story wrong with regard to David's check. She claims that he did it on his own without being asked by Gerry. Not sure why he would check on Kate and the kids when Gerry had only been with them 45 minutes earlier.


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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  ann_chovey on Thu 6 Feb - 8:22

jinvta wrote:From Kate's 6 Sep Rogatory Interview:

"They arrived at the apartment at around 5:40 p.m., earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00 p.m. At the apartment they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00 p.m. Gerry went to the tennis courts, right after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered through the same door.

After the children’s bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, and gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness."

Was this a Freudian slip by Kate? She mentions dressing the twins after the bath, but no mention of Madeleine at all. She also makes it clear that her and Gerry had considered taking the kids to the rec area, but had decided not too because the kids (at least Madeleine) were tired. How could Gerry have forgotten this conversation only 30-45 minutes later?

Fiona also seems to have got the story wrong with regard to David's check. She claims that he did it on his own without being asked by Gerry. Not sure why he would check on Kate and the kids when Gerry had only been with them 45 minutes earlier.


All very strange isn't it?

D.P....."I’m gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.”
Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I’d say three minutes, five maximum.”
1485 "Three to five?”

Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "So then you step back out, did you leave the doors open or did you close them?”
Reply "Err I couldn’t remember. You know, again, I’ve got the, in my mind that the doors were open when I went in and I probably would have just walked out back that way, you know, it still, I mean it’s still relatively nice outside, it was light and everything so err you know I, I, whether they kept the door open it’s just nice when it’s the end of the evening you know, sorry, you know the end of the afternoon, but if I’m perfectly honest the answer to that question is I can’t remember.”

KM.....When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t even actually enter the flat, he remained at the balcony door.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  marxman on Thu 6 Feb - 16:24

wantthetruth wrote:
marxman wrote:Is it usual to have a shower whilst supervising three young children?

This sounds to me like a porky......but why?

How on earth do us single mum's keep clean and hygenic hey?  Given it's apparently not allowed to shower whilst looking after kids.

Sheesh........


Sorry wantthetruth, I didn't make myself clear, of course its fine
and usual to shower as a necessary part of your daily functions.
However, having a shower when you have three lively and boisterous
very young children at tea time, seems to me NOT usual!
Leaving children unsupervised 'out of sight and out of sound' to have
a shower is inappropriate, especially when more convenient times
like early morning or late evening when the children are asleep,
maybe a better option.
However, I'm still not convinced that Kate was having a shower
when DP called.


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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  tanszi on Thu 6 Feb - 16:28

Im not convinced DP called. It wasn't mentioned first time round, I think its possible reinforcement that Madeleine was around was required and he was asked to say that he had called in. Hence the differences, Gerry saying he asked, DP saying he was there much longer than KMcC said, and DP wife saying they went together. So no im not convinced he called. Happy to be proved otherwise. jimo.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  ann_chovey on Thu 6 Feb - 16:47

tanszi wrote:Im not convinced DP called.  It wasn't mentioned first time round, I think its possible reinforcement that Madeleine was around was required and he was asked to say that he had called in.  Hence the differences, Gerry saying he asked, DP saying he was there much longer than KMcC said, and DP wife saying they went together.  So no im not convinced he called.  Happy to be proved otherwise. jimo.

Quite possibly. On the other hand DP said he stayed for a few minutes KM disagrees with this. Maybe he did call but was chivvied away pronto for whatever reason and later persuaded to recall '3 little angels, no sign of any problems, all happy/content' bla blah.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  wantthetruth on Fri 7 Feb - 8:49

marxman wrote:
wantthetruth wrote:
marxman wrote:Is it usual to have a shower whilst supervising three young children?

This sounds to me like a porky......but why?

How on earth do us single mum's keep clean and hygenic hey?  Given it's apparently not allowed to shower whilst looking after kids.

Sheesh........


Sorry wantthetruth, I didn't make myself clear, of course its fine
and usual to shower as a necessary part of your daily functions.
However, having a shower when you have three lively and boisterous
very young children at tea time, seems to me NOT usual!
Leaving children unsupervised 'out of sight and out of sound' to have
a shower is inappropriate, especially when more convenient times
like early morning or late evening when the children are asleep,
maybe a better option.
However, I'm still not convinced that Kate was having a shower
when DP called.
 

I agree the towel story is a bit weird.  But it's not abmornal to take a shower towards the end of a hot day on holiday.  I had three under the age of four and often took showers whenever I needed them.  Always with the kids within ear shot, and the bathroom door open wide (you never get any privacy!)
And even on holiday I would never answer the door wrapped in a towel, but maybe that's just me!

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  jinvta on Fri 7 Feb - 23:41

From Kate's 4 May statement: "Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband."

But then in her 6 Sep statement she states: "While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door."

What was it Kate, shower or bath, or both? I also find the bit about answering the door in a towel very creepy. I do not believe for one minute that this visit occurred. So what was it's purpose in being interjected into the timeline after the initial interviews?

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  kitti on Sat 8 Feb - 9:08

I would NEVER have a shower and leave the door unlocked or open and I would NEVER go to the door in just a towel.....no way.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  jassi on Sat 8 Feb - 9:24

jinvta wrote:From Kate's 4 May statement: "Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband."

But then in her 6 Sep statement she states: "While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door."

What was it Kate, shower or bath, or both? I also find the bit about answering the door in a towel very creepy. I do not believe for one minute that this visit occurred. So what was it's purpose in being interjected into the timeline after the initial interviews?

An attempt to establish an 'independent' sighting of Madeleine post-creche

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  jinvta on Sat 8 Feb - 18:34

jassi wrote:
jinvta wrote:From Kate's 4 May statement: "Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband."

But then in her 6 Sep statement she states: "While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door."

What was it Kate, shower or bath, or both? I also find the bit about answering the door in a towel very creepy. I do not believe for one minute that this visit occurred. So what was it's purpose in being interjected into the timeline after the initial interviews?

An attempt to establish an 'independent' sighting of Madeleine post-creche

Exactly! Which is a dead giveaway that something likely happened to Madeleine before they went to the Tapas Bar that night!

And I agree, most women would not shower with the doors unlocked nor would they answer the door in merely a towel. The Payne visit, along with the Oldfield 9:30 pm check, are very, very badly told lies.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  frencheuropean on Sat 8 Feb - 18:57

jinvta wrote:
jassi wrote:
jinvta wrote:From Kate's 4 May statement: "Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband."

But then in her 6 Sep statement she states: "While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door."

What was it Kate, shower or bath, or both? I also find the bit about answering the door in a towel very creepy. I do not believe for one minute that this visit occurred. So what was it's purpose in being interjected into the timeline after the initial interviews?

An attempt to establish an 'independent' sighting of Madeleine post-creche

Exactly! Which is a dead giveaway that something likely happened to Madeleine before they went to the Tapas Bar that night!

And I agree, most women would not shower with the doors unlocked nor would they answer the door in merely a towel. The Payne visit, along with the Oldfield 9:30 pm check, are very, very badly told lies.

And most men would remember if they saw a women answering the door in merely a towel. But not D.Payne:

"1485    ”Okay, so now what I’m gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.”
Reply    ”I’m afraid that is, you know I’m, I cannot recall at all. I know that’s, you’d think that’d be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn’t say exactly what they were wearing. Err…”
1485    ”But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example?”
Reply    ”I can’t, no.”
1485    ”And did you actually set eyes on each individual child?”
Reply    ”All three children I saw, yeah.”
1485    ”And were they standing up? Sitting down?”
Reply    ”Err they were generally standing up, yeah.”
1485    ”Did they actually acknowledge you?”
Reply    ”Err oh yeah, you know I’m very sure that if you’d have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they’d all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we’d all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I’d be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she’d definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.”

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  jinvta on Sat 8 Feb - 21:20

I would say that not most, but ALL, men would remember a woman answering the door in a towel!

How is it that Payne remembers what the children were wearing in the background, yet can't remember what Kate was wearing standing right in front of his face?

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  wantthetruth on Sun 9 Feb - 8:54

Just to clarify my point about leaving the door unlocked whilst taking a shower. I was, of course, referring to the bathroom door. All outside doors would be firmly secured!

There is no other way to keep clean when you're left in sole charge of three little ones.

Answering the door wrapped in a towel (and those holiday towels are rarely very large!) is nonsence. I agree, it's a bady told ruse.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  widowan on Sun 23 Feb - 23:52

jinvta wrote:I would say that not most, but ALL, men would remember a woman answering the door in a towel!

How is it that Payne remembers what the children were wearing in the background, yet can't remember what Kate was wearing standing right in front of his face?

Odd, isn't it?

So focused on the children, and not the person standing in front of him holding the door shut with one knee, keeping the towel round her with one hand, etc and the kids "standing up" although sitting having a story. All of them he checked out to see they were all in white but Kate he doesn't recall.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

Post  kitti on Mon 24 Feb - 7:48

She knew Gerry was coming back at 7, why have a shower when the kids are running about and she left the patio door unlocked.



When i have a bath, I lock my front door, simple as that.

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Re: Blacksmith Bureau - Return of the Zombie

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