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Realism or racism

Post  katertaif on Wed 28 May - 16:43

A survey was published today on how racist we are. It seems there is a higher proportion of us racist that a few years ago. The fly in the ointment being London. London it seems is bucking the national trend.

The stated reason by the head of this organisation who held the survey seems to be that the people in London are more educated and better informed. I beg your pardon. I don't suppose it could have anything to do with the demographic make up of London now. Are they really saying that you can only be racist if you are thick?

Much the same theory was put forward last Sunday when talking about immigration being a factor in the collapse of the Liberal Democrat vote, and the rise of the right and left across Europe. So all those voters who voted UKIP are shall we say not over bright. . Someone should tell that to these immigrants who choose to form ghettoes, and refuse to integrate. That IMHO is a form of racism.

Many people are racist, notably the Chinese and Russians, and from my own personal experience many Africans are highly racist. In fact the most racist of all.

So now we know, we are a nation of unintelligent racists. I would say we are a nation of realists, even that champion of egalitarianism Trevor Phillips admits that multiculturism has failed and integration is failing. Come to think of it we haven't heard from him for some time, is he still drawing his salary for telling us what we already know?

So what does this tell us about our politicians, many of whom (apart from claiming expenses) show a remarkable depth of non intelligence. Are they all racists as well?

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  fuzeta on Wed 28 May - 19:00

Katertaif I have just seen this woman on the news and I could not believe my ears. She said the worst percentage of racism was the West Midlands. Then she stated that the reason for this was because it was a deprived area and the people there were less educated. How very dare she?

I would like to know what this woman's definition of racism is?? What were the questions asked? The West Midlands is swamped with immigrants. Could it be that the people of the West Midlands voiced their concerns about the volume of immigration there. Maybe they feel that their way of life is being eroded and the places they live are becoming alien to them. Well that is not racism that is being real.

This woman with her prejudice about the people of the West Midlands should look at herself. Disgraceful

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  katertaif on Thu 29 May - 11:30

Good morning fuzeta

Yes that was the gist of what she was claiming. That in point of fact intelligence = non racist, and racist = thickos. As you say, how dare she?

The reference to London is equally mystifying. It was also brought up in interviews relating to the Liberal Democrats disastrous election results. On that subject I did also notice that while claiming your average Londoner to be of above average intelligence in not voting UKIP; the same intelligentsia stopped short of electing any Liberal democrat MEP's, so on that claim alone, they are not all that intelligent.

I lived in S. Africa for 10 years. I have worked in Nigeria and Malawi I have holidayed in what was Lourenco Marques, and Rhodesia, as it was. yes some whites are racist, but by far the worst cases of racism I have seen is among the Africans themselves. So on this ladies álogic, Africans must be among the thickest of the lot of us. I hasten to add, that it is her logic not mine.

I don't suppose that the London voting patterns have anything to do with London having being the number one target for immigrants over the last three decades. I think it safe to say many immigrants live there Tower hamlets being a case in point. and Turkeys do not vote for Christmas. Of course the August riots some time back were mostly in London. I take it she would have some trouble equating those with intelligence but of course she was not taxed with anything along these lines.

So yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly while at the same time dismissing her comments on the grounds that anyone with the intelligence of an Amoeba would have had more sense than to utter them. Had the lady got any sense at all, she would know that racism is an emotion and has nothing to do with brain power. She is the truly idiotic one.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 29 May - 18:18

Not all stupid people are racists but all racists are obviously stupid otherwise they wouldn't be racists. Anyone who considers himself/herself superior to another human being on the basis of skin colour, gender, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, etc alone is stupid. People are what people do. It's their actions that matter.


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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Lioned on Thu 29 May - 18:56

Claudia79 wrote:Not all stupid people are racists but all racists are obviously stupid otherwise they wouldn't be racists. Anyone who considers himself/herself superior to another human being on the basis of skin colour, gender, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, etc alone is stupid. People are what people do. It's their actions that matter.

They are my sentiments exactly.

One has to remember that people come to this country to get a better life for themselves and maybe their families.How can you blame any individual for that.

That said we have problems in the UK with immigration and overcrowding (in some places) which have come as a direct result of an incompetent/or engineered (believe which you will) policy created by New Labour and Tony Bliar.

You cannot blame people for moaning if they have to go to A & E and find a queue of foreign looking people in front of them (been there done that),nor those who want to get their kids into nursery school down the road only to be told its full up with Muslims.Nor those who want to work and pay taxes but find the jobs not available because immigrants can work cheap and live 6 to a bed.Nor those who have lived all their lives in a nice part of town but now find themselves in an 'ethnic' minority.

I am lucky as where i live i can have it all ways.I am minutes from the lovely bluebell woods and Kent countryside or a 20 min train ride to London and the wonderful multi cultural City that it is.

Those who have some control over such things are the ones to blame.

I have absolutely no time for the vagabonds and thieves and beggers who camp out on Hyde Park corner though.Boris can turn his water cannons on those if he wants.



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Re: Realism or racism

Post  fuzeta on Thu 29 May - 19:00

We have been to Kenya a few times. In Kenya it is Asian people that own all the business and the Kenyan people work for them. They are treated really badly and are very afraid of their bosses.

I remember going to the port/docks of Mombasa, not a place to go unless you have people with you who know what they are doing. The port is run by Asian bosses. I could not believe what I saw. Kenya men were loading the ships. They were running as fast as they could bent double with two or three huge sacks on their backs. They were not allowed to stop and catch their breath. No equipment whatsoever just the backs of the men. It looked as if the old slave trade was still with us. Myself and a female friend started to cry it was so bloody awful.

One time I had to go to a doctor, his surgery was not far from the hotel we were staying in. It was a no appointment place, just wait your turn. When I arrived, there was just one woman in there waiting, a Kenyan woman. Then after me came another white woman, I think she was Swedish. The Asian doctor came out and called this Swedish woman in first. I thought well that's rich, she has only just come in. I later found out that he had been visiting her many times at the hotel. So she had obviously spent loads of cash with him and was his first priority.

When she left he came out and called me in. I said " this other lady is first, pointing to the Kenyan. He said "that does not matter, come in" I told him that it might not matter to him but it mattered to me and I will not go in before her.
He threw a bit of a strop and then said to her " come on Naomi" he looked fit to kill. He got his own back on me, he did nothing and charged me a fortune. I was disgusted with him.

Now that is what I call Racism and it was very real

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Lioned on Thu 29 May - 19:07

fuzeta wrote:We have been to Kenya a few times. In Kenya it is Asian people that own all the business and the Kenyan people work for them. áThey are treated really ábadly and are very afraid of their bosses.

I remember going to the port/docks of Mombasa, not a place to go unless you have people with you who know what they are doing. áThe port is run by Asian bosses. áI could not believe what I saw. áKenya men were loading the ships. áThey were running as fast as they could bent double with two or three huge sacks on their backs. áThey were not allowed to stop and catch their breath. áNo equipment whatsoever just the backs of the men. áIt looked as if the old slave trade was still with us. áMyself and a female friend started to cry it was so bloody awful.

One time I had to go to a doctor, his surgery was not far from the hotel we were staying in. áIt was a no appointment place, just wait your turn. á á When I arrived, there áwas just one woman in there waiting, áa Kenyan woman. áThen after me came another white woman, I think she was Swedish. á á á áThe Asian doctor came out and called this Swedish woman in first. áI thought well that's rich, she has only just come in. á I later found out that he had been visiting her many times at the hotel. áSo she had obviously spent loads of cash with him and was his first priority.

When she left he came out and called me in. á I said " this other lady is first, pointing to the Kenyan. áHe said á"that does not matter, come in" á áI told him that it might ánot matter to him but it mattered to me and I will not go in before her.
He threw a bit of a strop áand then said to her " come on Naomi" á he looked fit to kill. á He got his own back on me, he did nothing and charged me a fortune. I was disgusted with him.

Now that is what I call Racism and it was very real

That is racism and i am sure it happens in many places around the World still and also we pretty much have the slave trade in our own Capital City.

I am sure between us we can think of plenty of examples.



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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 29 May - 19:07

Yes, Fuzeta, sadly racism is very real and is almost everywhere, be it evident or more subtle.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 29 May - 19:12

Lioned wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:Not all stupid people are racists but all racists are obviously stupid otherwise they wouldn't be racists. Anyone who considers himself/herself superior to another human being on the basis of skin colour, gender, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, etc alone is stupid. People are what people do. It's their actions that matter.

They are my sentiments exactly.

One has to remember that people come to this country to get a better life for themselves and maybe their families.How can you blame any individual for that.

That said we have problems in the UK with immigration and overcrowding (in some places) which have come as a direct result of an incompetent/or engineered (believe which you will) policy created by New Labour and Tony Bliar.

You cannot blame people for moaning if they have to go to A & E and find a queue of foreign looking people in front of them (been there done that),nor those who want to get their kids into nursery school down the road only to be told its full up with Muslims.Nor those who want to work and pay taxes but find the jobs not available because immigrants can work cheap and live 6 to a bed.Nor those who have lived all their lives in a nice part of town but now find themselves in an 'ethnic' minority.

I am lucky as where i live i can have it all ways.I am minutes from the lovely bluebell woods and Kent countryside or a 20 min train ride to London and the wonderful multi cultural City that it is.

Those who have some control over such things are the ones to blame.

I have absolutely no time for the vagabonds and thieves and beggers who camp out on Hyde Park corner though.Boris can turn his water cannons on those if he wants.



And there you have it. In a nutshell.
I was born in a country with millions of immigrants and millions of Muslims and things work very well. And I live in a country which once had colonies. Portuguese people have been immigrants for many centuries but we have also been the destiny of immigrants so we know both sides of the coin. And I'm quite proud to observe that although not immune to problems we have been very balanced in dealing with it probably because we know very well what it feels like to pack and go look for better living conditions.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  fuzeta on Thu 29 May - 19:37

Lioned wrote:
fuzeta wrote:We have been to Kenya a few times. In Kenya it is Asian people that own all the business and the Kenyan people work for them. áThey are treated really ábadly and are very afraid of their bosses.

I remember going to the port/docks of Mombasa, not a place to go unless you have people with you who know what they are doing. áThe port is run by Asian bosses. áI could not believe what I saw. áKenya men were loading the ships. áThey were running as fast as they could bent double with two or three huge sacks on their backs. áThey were not allowed to stop and catch their breath. áNo equipment whatsoever just the backs of the men. áIt looked as if the old slave trade was still with us. áMyself and a female friend started to cry it was so bloody awful.

One time I had to go to a doctor, his surgery was not far from the hotel we were staying in. áIt was a no appointment place, just wait your turn. á á When I arrived, there áwas just one woman in there waiting, áa Kenyan woman. áThen after me came another white woman, I think she was Swedish. á á á áThe Asian doctor came out and called this Swedish woman in first. áI thought well that's rich, she has only just come in. á I later found out that he had been visiting her many times at the hotel. áSo she had obviously spent loads of cash with him and was his first priority.

When she left he came out and called me in. á I said " this other lady is first, pointing to the Kenyan. áHe said á"that does not matter, come in" á áI told him that it might ánot matter to him but it mattered to me and I will not go in before her.
He threw a bit of a strop áand then said to her " come on Naomi" á he looked fit to kill. á He got his own back on me, he did nothing and charged me a fortune. I was disgusted with him.

Now that is what I call Racism and it was very real

That is racism and i am sure it happens in many places around the World still and also we pretty much have the slave trade in our own Capital City.

I am sure between us we can think of plenty of examples.



Have we Lioned? I don't get to London very often so cannot judge. Just pointing out what happened in Kenya as it seems that we in the UK are often made out to be racist and in fact we are the one of, if not the most, tolerant nation in the world

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Lioned on Thu 29 May - 20:07

Yes fuzeta.The slave trade in London you will find involves primarily the 'illegals'.

They come here with the promise of a better life and end up in Prostitution or working ridiculous hours washing up/waiting in restaurants.Working on building sites.
They are not physically chained up but they are slaves in every other sense.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  fuzeta on Thu 29 May - 20:19

Lioned wrote:Yes fuzeta.The slave trade in London you will find involves primarily the 'illegals'.

They come here with the promise of a better life and end up in Prostitution or working ridiculous hours washing up/waiting in restaurants.Working on building sites.
They are not physically chained up but they are slaves in every other sense. á

Well the answer is they must have a proper job, not a fake one, to come to plus somewhere to live then they would not end up in this state with scoundrels taking advantage. á á áWe spent some time in Bavaria and they have implemented this plus they must also speak German. á They are not chastised by the EU! á We would be though!!! á This is the only way to stop this ridiculous situation.

The difference about Kenya is that they have been made slaves in their own country.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  katertaif on Fri 30 May - 10:31

To equate racism with intelligence is misleading in the extreme. To claim that intelligent people are not racist is I'm afraid wrong. racism is an emotion and has nothing to do with intelligence at all. Indeed by that definition there are no racists, since no one would admit to being unintelligent.

History is littered with examples. Reinhard Heydrich was by any yardstick, an extremely cultured, and intelligent man. as well as extremely courageous. He was also the author of the final solution by which Jews were to be eliminated completely. The present day wars between Israel and the Muslim world are racist, nothing more; are they all stupid?

The montage showing that we all have the same size brain pan!! There is evidence to show that some African tribes do in fact have larger brains than Europeans. It isn't how big the brain is, it's how it's used that matters. That montage also tacitly assumes that only the Caucasian races are or can be racist. sadly that just isn't so. Africans are without any shadow of doubt some the biggest racists. The N'guni tribes comprising Zulu, Matabele, and Shangaan don't think they are superior, they know they are. The wars in Mozambique were fought between Frelimo, and Renamo along tribal lines, as are all the conflicts that regularly break out. That is another manifestation of racism Nick Griffin is an out and out racist, no one can say he isn't intelligent. he could not have done what he has if he were. That is not to say I admire him, or agree with him in any way. Just a statement of objective fact.

Charles de Gaulle, even after all we did for him, had no time for us. that is racism in a different form. He was extremely intelligent. To say that no person of intelligence can be racist, is condemning something like 90% of the human race. there are many forms of racism.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 30 May - 13:55

Yes, racism and other isms are emotions and Hitler was an emotional guy.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  katertaif on Fri 30 May - 15:45

Sorry Claudia, I don't see it. I never mentioned Hitler. At least you agree that racism has nothing to do with intelligence.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 30 May - 15:57

katertaif wrote:Sorry Claudia, I don't see it. I never mentioned Hitler. At least you agree that racism has nothing to do with intelligence.

No, I don't. Racist people are, in my opinion, very stupid people. Intelligence is not only a matter of IQ although I never met a racist with particular high IQ numbers. Racists are generally very ignorant of the world and they think the planet is their backyard which is why they fear what is different and that fear is on the basis of their stupid prejudice.You never mentioned Hitler but you stated that racism is a feeling, something I couldn't disagree with the most because that's underplaying its importance as feelings don't hurt anyone except maybe those who feel them. If racism is a feeling than I suppose anti-Semitism must be too so we could describe Hitler as an emotional guy.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  katertaif on Fri 30 May - 17:55

Good afternoon Claudia

Yes, I see your point now. Although it is still not completely accurate, as although you may never have met a racist with a high IQ there are many such. The very father of Apartheid Hendrik Vervoerd was an extremely intelligent man, and before going into politics was a senior lecturer at Stellenbosch University. I mentioned Heydrich in my post. he had an extremely high IQ. I don't know what Hitler's was although I suppose I could look it up. Certainly he did have intelligence, although I firmly believe the treaty of Versailles in 1918 made WW 2 inevitable, and if it hadn't been Hitler it would have been someone like him. In other words he is for want of a better expression a special instance. Certainly anyone who could calmly order the deaths of millions of people could not be completely normal, whether intelligent or not. The point I suppose I am making is that intelligent people can be racist, while people of a lower IQ can be non racist. It is not a matter of brainpower.

I get the sense that you are virulently anti racist, and because of this are tending to ignore certain truths, such as Africans being racist. in fact extremely so in many cases. Me personally I have lived and worked in too many countries several of them in Africa. I take people as they come whether they are black white or blue with yellow polka dots. I tell you frankly I didn't like the average Nigerian simply because they were always on the want or looking to scam me in some way. On the other hand I have nothing but the greatest of respect, admiration and liking for most of the N'guni tribes. especially the Zulus.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 30 May - 18:05

katertaif wrote:Good afternoon Claudia

Yes, I see your point now. Although it is still not completely accurate, as although you may never have met a racist with a high IQ there are many such. The very father of Apartheid Hendrik Vervoerd was an extremely intelligent man, and before going into politics was a senior lecturer at Stellenbosch University. I mentioned Heydrich in my post. he had an extremely high IQ. I don't know what Hitler's was although I suppose I could look it up. Certainly he did have intelligence, although I firmly ábelieve the treaty of Versailles in 1918 made WW 2 inevitable, and if it hadn't been Hitler it would have been someone like him. In other words he is for want of a better expression a special instance. Certainly anyone who could calmly order the deaths of millions of people could not be completely normal, whether intelligent or not. The point I suppose I am making is that intelligent people can be racist, while people of a lower IQ can be non racist. It is not a matter of brainpower.

I get the sense that you are virulently anti racist, and because of this are tending to ignore certain truths, such as Africans being racist. in fact extremely so in many cases. Me personally I have lived and worked in too many countries several of them in Africa. I take people as they come whether they are black white or blue with yellow polka dots. I tell you frankly I didn't like the average Nigerian simply because they were always on the want or looking to scam me in some way. áOn the other hand I have nothing but the greatest of respect, admiration and liking for most of the N'guni tribes. áespecially the Zulus.

Two short points:
1 - Intelligence is a lot more than IQ numbers and academic accomplishments certainly aren't proof of intelligence. I have strong links to the academic world and I've met intelligent people, idiots and thickos all with degrees, masters and doctorates.
2 - The different between your position and mine is quite simple, actually: people for me aren't whites, non-whites, Africans, Europeans, Nigerians or Zulus. They are individuals and I 'evaluate' them as such. For me saying that Africans are racists, Germans are this, British people are that doesn't make any sense and as a generalisation it is bound to be ignorant and false.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 30 May - 18:23

I am a Portuguese citizen living in Portugal but born in Germany by parents who had been to Angola (my mum) and Holland (my dad) before. A large part of my family has been in Africa for a very long time. In Germany I was raised in contact with more nationalities than I can count so I was able to understand, very early on, that the world is made up of many colours, races, languages, traditions, religions, etc and that is what people do that matters not anything else.
One small example of what ignorance can be: if I based my opinion of British people on what I can observe with my own eyes here then I would have to say they are loud, heavy drinkers and don't care for their kids well enough. That's, in fact, what many people working in the tourism industry (ignorantly) believe. That would, however, be a very ignorant, very narrow minded, very xenophobic conclusion to make because they are no such thing and I know it. But only because I am interested enough to want to know it.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  fuzeta on Fri 30 May - 19:05

Crikey Claudia. I did not know that is what the Portuguese tourist industry thought about me and my family and others that go there. I am very saddened to hear that. I have always loved Portugal and never realised that the people who's restaurants we eat in and the cafe's we drink in feel that way about us. If we are there again, it will always be on my mind now.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 30 May - 19:14

fuzeta wrote:Crikey Claudia. áI did not know that is what the Portuguese tourist industry thought about me and my family and others that go there. áI am very saddened to hear that. áI have always loved Portugal and never realised that the people who's restaurants we eat in and the cafe's we drink in feel that way about us. If we are there again, it will always be on my mind now.

They probably class you and your family as 'the other kind' as some call it. Those they consider the exceptions which are generally the older tourists. But yes, Fuzeta, prejudice is very sad indeed and yes, it hurts.

ETA: the news report with Sandra Felgueiras about that Irish couple in the Algarve posted somewhere on the main forum may help with the kind of tourism in question.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  fuzeta on Fri 30 May - 19:59

Claudia In all the five years we had a restaurant on an island in Greece. We had all nationalities come in young and old including British, which incidentally were the most polite and patient. I can honestly say I never thought that about our customers.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 30 May - 21:51

fuzeta wrote:Claudia In all the five years we had a restaurant on an island in Greece. We had all nationalities come in young and old including British, which incidentally were the most polite and patient. I can honestly say I never thought that about áour customers.

Well, I'm not surprised. I know for a fact you are an intelligent woman. Watch the report if you can find it and have time. For many people in the Algarve, that's (sadly) what it is. I'm honest about one thing, though. I never holiday where there are many tourists. Not because I don't like any particular nationality but because I like the peace and quiet. áá

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  fuzeta on Fri 30 May - 22:41

I like peace and quiet myself Claudia and that is why I do not go often to the Western Algarve, mostly we stay in the East. Plus I never go anywhere in the main tourist seasons. We have been going in the winter for the last 10 years. áIf what you say is what the Portuguese think of the British people. I think we will be going somewhere else in future.

We would not want to go anywhere that we are disliked and not welcome.

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Re: Realism or racism

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 30 May - 23:01

fuzeta wrote:I like peace and quiet myself Claudia and that is why I do not go often to the Western Algarve, mostly we stay in the East. Plus I never go anywhere in the main tourist seasons. We have been going in the winter for the last 10 years. áIf what you say is what the Portuguese think of the British people. I think we will be going somewhere else in future.

We would not want to go anywhere that we are disliked and not welcome.

Well, have you been badly treated? I never mentioned the Portuguese. I mentioned some of the people in the Algarve in the tourism industry. Probably the people who own the businesses in the news report and who are unable to see the bigger picture. Personally, I think it's good to vary and know different places but as I get older I confess I find some comfort in being in places I already know.
For professional reasons I have no choice but to holiday in the peak of summer. Ironically, I don't like too much heat so the south isn't an option for me during summer. I try to choose calm places. I don't avoid people or anything I just don't like places where there are queues to lunch, to have dinner, to shop, etc. I'm usually a stressed out woman so I need to avoid stress at least when on holiday. Where I go more often the most tourists are Spanish and I find it hilarious that we can more or less understand them but they have many difficulties understanding us. There's a building there were all apartments have Spanish owners!

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Re: Realism or racism

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