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Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  Badboy on Wed 16 Jul - 13:57

ONME PERSON HAS BEEN KILLED BY HAMAS ROCKETS IN ASHKELON,STARTED A FIRE NEAR OIL STORAGE FACILITY.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Thu 17 Jul - 14:02

[quote="Badboy"]ONME PERSON HAS BEEN KILLED BY HAMAS ROCKETS IN ASHKELON,STARTED A FIRE NEAR OIL STORAGE FACILITY.[/quote

Good afternoon Badboy

Yes I understand that was the first Israeli t be killed in Hamas's rocket attacks. Compared to over 200 Palestinians many of whom are women and children, is the reason the UN and other bodies, are effectively blaming Israel for it all. The David and Goliath complex.

In this instance though it was not Goliath who started it. David did. Politicians cannot compare the firepower of the two sides since it just makes absolutely no sense for David (Hamas) to deliberately attack Goliath (Israel) a much better armed opponent. Hamas and the Palestinian people could have a much better lifestyle, if they did not spend as much as they do on rockets. Rockets with only one purpose in mind. Then hammer out a lasting peace deal with Israel who have made it abundantly clear that peace is all they want.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  malena stool on Thu 17 Jul - 14:50

The 5 hour humanitarian ceasefire is over.
There are explicit photographs in this report

http://abcnews.go.com/International/gaza-militants-sneak-israel-ahead-cease-fire/story?id=24594286

Gaza Ceasefire Ends as Cairo Talks Simmer
Jul 17, 2014, 6:05 AM ET
By ABC NEWS via GOOD MORNING AMERICA

A temporary ceasefire in Gaza came to an end today as negotiators for Israel and Hamas worked with Egypt to find a way to create a permanent halt to the fighting.

The end of the five hour long truce was marked by the wail sirens in Ashkelon and Israeli settlements near the Gaza border. A rocket fired from Gaza struck near Ashkelon just as the "humanitarian pause" was officially over.

The break in the fighting was meant to allow civilians in Gaza to stock up on supplies and allow aid into the blockaded Detroit-sized enclave. Long lines quickly formed at ATMs in Gaza and the market area was bustling. The halt in the shelling was marred by a flurry of mortar shells lobbed at Israel from Gaza and an Israeli soldier was injured by a blast near the southern Gaza Strip. The Israeli forces held their fired except to respond with mortar fire after the soldier was wounded.

In Cairo, Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shukri told the Associated Press there was growing momentum for a permanent ceasefire put forward by Egypt. Israel had accepted the plan earlier this week, but the proposal was rejected by Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza. Egypt hopes to be able to extend today's temporary truce into a ceasefire to allow further talks.

The 10-day battle has left 227 people dead. Only one of those were Israeli. The tragedy of the fighting was underlined Wednesday when four Palestinian boys, aged 9-11, were killed by Israeli shells while playing on a Gaza beach.

Israeli Strike Kills Four Boys Playing on Gaza Beach

Everything You Need to Know About the Conflict

Inside Tel Aviv's 'Situation Room'

The Israeli military said it thwarted an earlier attack by 13 Gaza militants who sneaked into Israel through a tunnel.

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, a military spokesman, said the militants were identified about 820 feet inside Israel and were struck by Israeli aircraft. Lerner said the military believed at least one militant was killed in Thursday's strike. He said the remaining fighters appeared to have returned to Gaza through the tunnel.

This was the second time militants infiltrated Israel from Gaza. Israel killed four militants last week who entered from the sea.

PHOTO: Palestinians carry the body of a boy whom medics said was killed by in Gaza CityMohammed Talatene/Reuters
PHOTO: Palestinians carry the body of a boy whom medics said was killed by in Gaza City
President Obama said Wednesday that "we've all been heart broken by the violence" that has "men, women and children caught in the crossfire."

VIDEO: Cameras Rush to Scene Where 4 Gaza Boys Were Killed by an Israeli Strike
Israel, Palestine Conflict: Israeli Strike on Gaza Kills 4 Young Boys
The president said the United States "will use all of our diplomatic relationships to support closing a deal on a ceasefire."

Israel had halted its attacks for several hours earlier this week, but resumed its military campaign after Hamas fired dozens of rockets at Israel.

At least 1,685 people have been injured in Gaza since fighting broke out last week, the health officials said.

PHOTO: Palestinians salvage what they can of their belongings from the rubble of their destroyed house following an early morning Israeli missile strike in Gaza City, July 16, 2014.Khalil Hamra/AP Photo
PHOTO: Palestinians salvage what they can of their belongings from the rubble of their destroyed house following an early morning Israeli missile strike in Gaza City, July 16, 2014.
The battle has broken a two-year lull in hostilities between Israel and Hamas and was triggered by the slaying of three Israeli teens and revenge burning death of a Palestinian teen. Angry protests escalated to rocket launches and retaliatory air strikes.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Thu 17 Jul - 15:15

Good afternoon malena stool

According to most reports including the Times of Israel, Hamas never did honour any cease fire, they ignored it. To continue the biblical analogy it makes no sense of any kind to deliberately go up against a much bigger and more able opponent. You know before you do it, as Hamas must have that metaphorically speaking you are going to get battered. That would be senseless unless you expect to get something out of it.

In this case it would seem to be international sympathy together with an increase in revenue. They have deliberately traded the lives of their people for that. Yes, an Israeli shell killed those four boys on the beach, but it was an Hamas inspired shell, the blame for their deaths lies at their door. Of course Hamas may be up to something even more sinister in that they may be looking to start a full scale war with Israel.

Because of their reluctance to accept any cease fire, and their continued attacks on Israel during it the international sympathy is lessening now. I only hope it isn't the second option.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  wjk on Thu 17 Jul - 15:23

I'm just hearing on Sky News, 20 rockets have been found in a school in Gaza, the UN are investigating.

eta link http://news.sky.com/story/1302519/un-inquiry-after-rockets-found-in-gaza-school

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Thu 17 Jul - 16:51

wjk wrote:I'm just hearing on Sky News, 20 rockets have been found in a school in Gaza, the UN are investigating.

eta link http://news.sky.com/story/1302519/un-inquiry-after-rockets-found-in-gaza-school

That is what the Israelis have been saying all along. They are using innocent women and children as human shields. not themselves of course. there was a report last night of F16's hitting houses owned by a number of Hamas leaders. No one was killed however, because no one was there. They tell their own people to stay put, and face the shelling and bombing but they apparently don't.

Well if the UN are investigating that is a step forward. It'll finally show who is responsible for the carnage. I've said before, I don't agree with everything the Israelis do by any means, but they don't need or want perpetual war. They have bent over backward  s over the years to avoid it.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  AnnaEsse on Thu 17 Jul - 18:06

wjk wrote:I'm just hearing on Sky News, 20 rockets have been found in a school in Gaza, the UN are investigating.

eta link http://news.sky.com/story/1302519/un-inquiry-after-rockets-found-in-gaza-school

UNRWA STRONGLY CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS IN SCHOOL

AGENCY DEMANDS FULL RESPECT FOR THE SANCTITY OF ITS PREMISES IN GAZA

East Jerusalem

Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza, endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.

Immediately after discovery, the Agency informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident.

UNRWA has strong, established procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and routine inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. UNRWA will uphold and further reinforce its procedures.

Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected.  

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  wjk on Thu 17 Jul - 18:44

AnnaEsse wrote:
wjk wrote:I'm just hearing on Sky News, 20 rockets have been found in a school in Gaza, the UN are investigating.

eta link http://news.sky.com/story/1302519/un-inquiry-after-rockets-found-in-gaza-school

UNRWA STRONGLY CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS IN SCHOOL

AGENCY DEMANDS FULL RESPECT FOR THE SANCTITY OF ITS PREMISES IN GAZA

East Jerusalem

Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza, endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.

Immediately after discovery, the Agency informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school. UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident.

UNRWA has strong, established procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and routine inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes. UNRWA will uphold and further reinforce its procedures.

Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected.  

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school

Obviously, until the investigation is complete, we can't say which group put these rockets in the school, but whoever it was has no regard whatsoever for the safety of civilians in Palestine!!!

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Thu 17 Jul - 20:47

Once again this bears out what the Israelis say. Up until now, Hamas has been winning the propaganda war with Israel being branded as terrorists, and war criminals. the truth is starting to emerge.







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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  wjk on Thu 17 Jul - 21:08

And once again the BBC website barely mentions this rocket incident.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 17 Jul - 21:15

When children are being killed, I don't really care who is right or who is wrong. In fact, when children are being killed I'm not sure there's right and wrong, just insanity. The only rational thing I can think of is: stop the madness.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Thu 17 Jul - 23:16

Claudia79 wrote:When children are being killed, I don't really care who is right or who is wrong. In fact, when children are being killed I'm not sure there's right and wrong, just insanity. The only rational thing I can think of is: stop the madness.

On that we agree entirely. I only wish I knew how.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 17 Jul - 23:25

katertaif wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:When children are being killed, I don't really care who is right or who is wrong. In fact, when children are being killed I'm not sure there's right and wrong, just insanity. The only rational thing I can think of is: stop the madness.

On that we agree entirely. I only wish I knew how.

Not an easy thing to achieve, I think. Maybe it's even impossible. But my take on it: there's no innocent side in this whole sorry mess. Making one of the sides saints and the other terrorists (not matter which is which) certainly doesn't help.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Fri 18 Jul - 9:12

Claudia79 wrote:
katertaif wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:When children are being killed, I don't really care who is right or who is wrong. In fact, when children are being killed I'm not sure there's right and wrong, just insanity. The only rational thing I can think of is: stop the madness.

On that we agree entirely. I only wish I knew how.

Not an easy thing to achieve, I think. Maybe it's even impossible. But my take on it: there's no innocent side in this whole sorry mess. Making one of the sides saints and the other terrorists (not matter which is which) certainly doesn't help.

Good morning Claudia

I have never held the Israelis to be saints. I have said often enough that they are not. having said that no country could tolerate being targeted by rockets, without doing something about it. That is the Israeli standpoint certainly. Of course the leaders of Hamas are claiming they are the saints, and have done nothing wrong. They apparently refuse to accept any responsibility.

I personally feel this tragic situation cannot be resolved unilaterally. There is too much bad blood between them, and has been for literally thousands of years. If it were possible for both sides to lay down their weapons, forget past injustices, whether real or imagined, then the region and more importantly the children in the region could grow up safely, and peacefully. Unfortunately, I don't think that is going to happen. The next best thing (I don't know if it would be acceptable) would be a UN peacekeeping force. That would solve many of the problems in that both sides would be made to keep the peace. At the least they would face being exposed as culpable.

Once again nothing of the kind is going to happen, and when this is over, the whole dreary business will start all over again. There are still many hard liners, who believe Israel has no right to exist and many hard liners among the Israelis who think they can do whatever they wish.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  malena stool on Fri 18 Jul - 11:13

katertaif wrote:Good afternoon malena stool

According to most reports including the Times of Israel, Hamas never did honour any cease fire, they ignored it. To continue the biblical analogy  it makes no sense of any kind to deliberately go up against a much bigger and more able opponent. You know before you do it, as Hamas must have  that metaphorically speaking you are going to get battered. That would be senseless unless you expect to get something out of it.

In this case it would seem to be international sympathy together with an increase in revenue. They have deliberately traded the lives of their people for that. Yes, an Israeli shell killed those four boys on the beach, but it was an Hamas inspired shell, the blame for their deaths lies at their door. Of course Hamas may be up to something even more sinister in that they may be looking to start a full scale war with Israel.

Because of their reluctance to accept any cease fire, and their continued attacks on Israel during it the international sympathy is lessening now. I only hope it isn't the second option.

Good morning katertaif
You are most likely right, the overall aim of hamas and those who back them is probably to bring other nations into conflict with Israel. Hamas themselves do not have the capacity to do more than keep the pot on the boil.

While Hamas are allowed to operate with impunity and supplied with seemingly limitess funds and weapons there can be no negotiaited long term solution. It will I fear come to a full blown war unless the root cause is removed from the equation, that is those who provide the wherewithall to continue the attacks on Israel, who I imagine would dearly love to live in peace with all their neighbours.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Fri 18 Jul - 12:40

Good morning malena stool

As you say, Hamas only have the capability to "keep things simmering" A full blown war may be what they want I sincerely hope that is not their aim but it may very well be. there is little or no common sense in the Middle East when it comes to Israel, at least among those I have discussed it with. Even my old trainees, with whom I still correspond believe Israel to be the bad guy, while Hamas are doing nothing wrong. I mention the rocket attacks they ignore that part of it.

Having said that, and while it may be Hamas' plan, there are signs that the Arab League are pointing the finger at them. That would make a coalition against Israel almost impossible. They did themselves no favours by refusing to accept Egypt's initial cease fire proposals while Israel did..

If Hamas were to spend as much on improving the lives of the Palestinian people as they spend on rockets, Israel would almost cease to matter economically. That is part of the trouble which Hamas trades on, that many Palestinians depend on Israel for work and far from any feelings of gratitude seems to breed even more resentment.


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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  malena stool on Fri 18 Jul - 15:59

katertaif wrote:Good morning malena stool

As you say, Hamas only have the capability to "keep things simmering" A full blown war may be what they want I sincerely hope that is not their aim but it may very well be. there is little or no common sense in the Middle East when it comes to Israel, at least among those I have discussed it with. Even my old trainees, with whom I still correspond believe Israel to be the bad guy, while Hamas are doing nothing wrong. I mention the rocket attacks they ignore that part of it.

Having said that, and  while it may  be Hamas' plan, there are signs that the Arab League are pointing the finger at them. That would make a coalition against Israel almost impossible. They did themselves no favours by refusing to accept Egypt's initial cease fire proposals while Israel did..

If Hamas were to spend as much on improving the lives of the Palestinian people as they spend on rockets, Israel would almost cease to matter economically. That is part of the trouble which Hamas trades on, that many Palestinians depend on Israel for work and far from any feelings of gratitude seems to breed even more resentment.
Good afternoon katertaif,
Their logic is it seems, quite unworkable... What is that old saying? A conundrum wrapped in a mystery? They plainly have an agenda that they follow. (or their backers have) which defies all reason.
As I've posted before, the entire middle east could become an oasis of plenty if they follow the lead of Israel. There is gas, oil, solar power and with the use of desalinated water there could be ample food for everyone. A veritable Garden of Eden.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Fri 18 Jul - 16:55

Good afternoon malena stool

If their resources were put to better use, the place would be a garden of Eden. Unfortunately the hard liners do not seem to want that. Its a great pity since as you say they have all the things necessary to make the desert literally bloom. There are a few places in Saudi Arabia which are naturally gardens. It isn't all desert by any stretch.

It seems though that some of them would rather see their own women and children killed and maimed, while trying to kill Israel's women and children. Who knows what goes on in a mind like that?

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  malena stool on Fri 18 Jul - 17:47

Good afternoon katertaif

It would seem after so many years of conflict interspaced with periods of ceasefire that the problem can't ever be resolved by western thoughts or ideals.
Perhaps if Israel agrees then the Arab league could bring some ideas forward and work with the west to sort out the conflict once and for all.

I can't see it ever happening, but for the safety of all concerned some solution does need arriving at.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 19 Jul - 9:36

Hamas Covenant 1988

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  fuzeta on Sat 19 Jul - 10:24

That certainly makes interesting reading Anna. Written in 1988, well well

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 19 Jul - 10:29

fuzeta wrote:That certainly makes interesting reading Anna.  Written in 1988, well well

And that is the stated objective of Hamas which has not changed. Would I shake the hand of a neighbour whose stated objective was to burn my house down? Not likely!

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  Claudia79 on Sat 19 Jul - 13:34

http://videos.tf1.fr/jt-20h/2014/enfants-tues-a-gaza-le-bombardement-filme-par-une-equipe-de-tf1-8453439.html

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  katertaif on Sat 19 Jul - 20:54

AnnaEsse wrote:Hamas Covenant 1988

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

The hard liners have been seeking the destruction of the state of Israel since it was founded. Coalitions of neighbouring countries backed by others, have tried full blown war more than once including an extremely shameful attack on the occasion of Yom Kippur. Officially they claim their ammunition was faulty. Privately they know they are no match for the IDF. I don't think that method will be tried again.

Unfortunately, and it gives me no pleasure to say it, I believe Israel faces an even greater danger, and that is Iran developing a nuclear weapon,, and the means to deliver it.

Ahmadinejad, made no bones about it Israel should be wiped out. Rouhani, on the face of it is making more conciliatory noises. he has though bragged about how he duped the Americans when he was on the negotiating team. In any case, they may have changed the president, and he may even have turned from Hawk to Dove, but the real power lies with the mullahs, and the supremo Khameini. N one has changed them or their attitude.

Israel would of course respond in kind, and it would then depend on how other nuclear powers felt about it. certainly many Many women and children would be killed and not all Jewish. The hard liners of course have the solution for that. They will be martyrs going to their reward in paradise.

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Re: Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Post  malena stool on Sun 20 Jul - 15:03

Gaza Conflict: Donkey Suicide Bomb Stopped By Israeli Army
The Huffington Post UK
Posted: 19/07/2014 14:56 BST Updated: 19/07/2014 15:00 BST Print Article

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/19/gaza-conflict-donkey-suicide-bomb_n_5601885.html

 photo n-DONKEY-ISRAEL-large570_zps17394c73.jpg

A "suspicious" donkey laden with explosives has been revealed as a surprising form of weaponry in Gaza, the Israeli army has said.

The poor donkey was blown up during its oblivious suicide mission after troops said they were forced to open fire on the animal as it approached their position in the Rafah area.

READ MORE: Londoners Show They're Not Happy About What's Going On In Gaza
Sending an animal to its death to serve terrorist purposes may seem shocking, but last night certainly wasn’t the first time Palestinian terrorists adopted this despicable tactic, the Israeli Defence Forces said.

The army had apparently received prior intelligence that militants were going to try to use animals to carry out attacks.

"A donkey suspiciously began to approach forces. The forces approached the donkey and it exploded at a safe distance, whereas no injuries were sustained by the IDF as a result," the press release stated.

Israeli military officials said Friday night's incident was a variant of what they say is Hamas' tactic of using "human shields" to carry out "terrorist" activity.

"They used this donkey as a human shield, or an animal shield, if you like," said Major Arye Shalicar, an army spokesman, according to The Telegraph.

"Anything, an animal or an international building, that can help make use of innocent people or international [citizens], they will use it. We see it time and again."

The IDF said most of these attacks involved donkeys and horses carrying carts loaded with explosives. However, IDF soldiers in the field reported multiple incidents where Hamas terrorists had strapped explosive belts to dogs.

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