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Taken for granted

Post  katertaif on Tue 7 Apr - 17:07

Blair's speech today in Sedgefield showed up very clearly where the British electorate stand in the eyes of politicians. he had a lot to say about a possible referendum on us staying in the EU. Milliband is to be praised for refusing to consider a referendum. while Cameron is accused of caving in to right wing elements and UKIP. What of us then the actual voters? A referendum is something that is too important for the elected representatives to decide and is therefore given to the people as a whole. You would not believe that listening to these politicians, not that Blair is representative of anyone these days assuming he ever was.

I thought the idea was to ask us? Having said that, I don't believe for a moment that Cameron ever had any intention of offering a referendum. he clearly enough stated that any referendum would follow on the heels of successful talks in Europe on a better deal for Britain. Angela Merkel scuppered that when she said Europe wasn't going to go for any such deal. No deal, no referendum.

If any such referendum was ever to be offered us, both sides would have their say, the pro's and con's could be discussed, and finally we would decide. Our politicians seem to think we are not able to decide on this. Well if we are not capable of deciding that between some what is it now 60 million odd of us. Yet they apparently have faith that we can choose the right representatives on May 7th. If we can do that, we can have a referendum. regardless of who lives at No. 10 after the election.


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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Angelina on Tue 7 Apr - 19:05

katertaif wrote:Blair's speech today in Sedgefield showed up very clearly where the British electorate stand in the eyes of politicians. he had a lot to say about a possible referendum on us staying in the EU. Milliband is to be praised for refusing to consider a referendum. while Cameron is accused of caving in to right wing elements and UKIP. What of us then the actual voters? A referendum is something that is too important for the elected representatives to decide and is therefore given to the people as a whole. You would not believe that listening to these politicians, not that Blair is representative of anyone these days assuming he ever was.

I thought the idea was to ask us? Having said that, I don't believe for a moment that Cameron ever had any intention of offering a referendum. he clearly enough stated that any referendum would follow on the heels of successful talks in Europe on a better deal for Britain. Angela Merkel scuppered that when she said Europe wasn't going to go for any such deal. No deal, no referendum.

If any such referendum was ever to be offered us, both sides would have their say, the pro's and con's could be discussed, and finally we would decide. Our politicians seem to think we are not able to decide on this. Well if we are not capable of deciding that between some what is it now 60 million odd of us. Yet they apparently have faith that we can choose the right representatives on May 7th. If we can do that, we can have a referendum. regardless of who lives at No. 10  after the election.

 

Having Blair speak up for Labour makes me think they aren't too sure they will get a majority and they obviously don't want to be beholden to the SNP.

I had hoped he'd left the scene for good...I can't stand his grinning face...and I have no intention of listening to a word he says. He gave all our rights away in Europe and dragged us into a stupid war that served no purpose, in fact imo it led to the situation we have now with IS by taking away the leaders of certain countries, albeit nasty, brutish leaders but they had their uses in controlling things.

Why anyone in their right mind would listen to TB is beyond me.

As for a referendum....it seems to be forgotten that it's only going to happen after "re-negotiation" of our relationship with Brussels....and it's pretty obvious that Cameron won't get any change in anything....so there won't be a referendum.

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  fuzeta on Tue 7 Apr - 20:07

Angelina wrote:
katertaif wrote:Blair's speech today in Sedgefield showed up very clearly where the British electorate stand in the eyes of politicians. he had a lot to say about a possible referendum on us staying in the EU. Milliband is to be praised for refusing to consider a referendum. while Cameron is accused of caving in to right wing elements and UKIP. What of us then the actual voters? A referendum is something that is too important for the elected representatives to decide and is therefore given to the people as a whole. You would not believe that listening to these politicians, not that Blair is representative of anyone these days assuming he ever was.

I thought the idea was to ask us? Having said that, I don't believe for a moment that Cameron ever had any intention of offering a referendum. he clearly enough stated that any referendum would follow on the heels of successful talks in Europe on a better deal for Britain. Angela Merkel scuppered that when she said Europe wasn't going to go for any such deal. No deal, no referendum.

If any such referendum was ever to be offered us, both sides would have their say, the pro's and con's could be discussed, and finally we would decide. Our politicians seem to think we are not able to decide on this. Well if we are not capable of deciding that between some what is it now 60 million odd of us. Yet they apparently have faith that we can choose the right representatives on May 7th. If we can do that, we can have a referendum. regardless of who lives at No. 10  after the election.

 

Having Blair speak up for Labour makes me think they aren't too sure they will get a majority and they obviously don't want to be beholden to the SNP.

I had hoped he'd left the scene for good...I can't stand his grinning face...and I have no intention of listening to a word he says.   He gave all our rights away in Europe and dragged us into a stupid war that served no purpose, in fact imo it led to the situation we have now with IS by taking away the leaders of certain countries, albeit nasty, brutish leaders but they had their uses in controlling things.    

Why anyone in their right mind would listen to TB is beyond me.

As for a referendum....it seems to be forgotten that it's only going to happen after "re-negotiation" of our relationship with Brussels....and it's pretty obvious that Cameron won't get any change in anything....so there won't be a referendum.

I thought that Cameron said he would negotiate a better deal with Merkel and if he could not get a better deal then we would have a referendum, not the other way round!
I doubt if we will ever get a referendum anyway so " deal or no deal' I don't think it matters. I was going to vote to come out anyway, never believed in it. Tony Blair wants us to stay in, well that should raise alarm bells with anyone.

Yes Angelina you are exactly right. Removing the brutish leaders has resulted in something far far worse and we will rue the day we ever got involved. Tony Blair has had a huge impact on the world, all for the worse. He should be hung

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Angelina on Tue 7 Apr - 22:28

fuzeta wrote:
Angelina wrote:
katertaif wrote:Blair's speech today in Sedgefield showed up very clearly where the British electorate stand in the eyes of politicians. he had a lot to say about a possible referendum on us staying in the EU. Milliband is to be praised for refusing to consider a referendum. while Cameron is accused of caving in to right wing elements and UKIP. What of us then the actual voters? A referendum is something that is too important for the elected representatives to decide and is therefore given to the people as a whole. You would not believe that listening to these politicians, not that Blair is representative of anyone these days assuming he ever was.

I thought the idea was to ask us? Having said that, I don't believe for a moment that Cameron ever had any intention of offering a referendum. he clearly enough stated that any referendum would follow on the heels of successful talks in Europe on a better deal for Britain. Angela Merkel scuppered that when she said Europe wasn't going to go for any such deal. No deal, no referendum.

If any such referendum was ever to be offered us, both sides would have their say, the pro's and con's could be discussed, and finally we would decide. Our politicians seem to think we are not able to decide on this. Well if we are not capable of deciding that between some what is it now 60 million odd of us. Yet they apparently have faith that we can choose the right representatives on May 7th. If we can do that, we can have a referendum. regardless of who lives at No. 10  after the election.

 

Having Blair speak up for Labour makes me think they aren't too sure they will get a majority and they obviously don't want to be beholden to the SNP.

I had hoped he'd left the scene for good...I can't stand his grinning face...and I have no intention of listening to a word he says.   He gave all our rights away in Europe and dragged us into a stupid war that served no purpose, in fact imo it led to the situation we have now with IS by taking away the leaders of certain countries, albeit nasty, brutish leaders but they had their uses in controlling things.    

Why anyone in their right mind would listen to TB is beyond me.

As for a referendum....it seems to be forgotten that it's only going to happen after "re-negotiation" of our relationship with Brussels....and it's pretty obvious that Cameron won't get any change in anything....so there won't be a referendum.

I thought that Cameron said he would negotiate a better deal with Merkel and if he could not get a better deal then we would have a referendum, not the other way round!
I doubt if we will ever get a referendum anyway so " deal or no deal'  I don't think it matters.  I was going to vote to come out anyway, never believed in it.  Tony Blair wants us to stay in, well that should raise alarm bells with anyone.

Yes Angelina you are exactly right.  Removing the brutish leaders has resulted in something far far worse and we will rue the day we ever got involved.  Tony Blair has had a huge impact on the world, all for the worse.  He should be hung

Well I don't know which way round it is but I'd put money on there never being a referendum....and my and my dosh aren't easily parted

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  katertaif on Tue 7 Apr - 22:34

[/quote]

As for a referendum....it seems to be forgotten that it's only going to happen after "re-negotiation" of our relationship with Brussels....and it's pretty obvious that Cameron won't get any change in anything....so there won't be a referendum.[/quote]


Quite right Angelina. The referendum was promised on the back of successful negotiations on a better deal for Britain. There will be no such better deal so no referendum. there may be some sort of cobbled together deal designed to look as if Cameron has got something out of it but unlikely in view of Angela Merkel's comments. Apart from any other consideration, Blair has been acting on his own behalf all along. I know  two labour councillors, one the ex mayor of Sedgefield who changed their opinions overnight. Having said that, who is he now? Yesterdays man? is that the new politics? he has slagged off Milliband good style in the past why the change?

What it comes down to is at no stage did he, or in fact any of them mention us. the actual voters. We are, all things considered, a hindrance to be courted once every 5 years, or at a by election. I say again. If 60 odd  million people are incapable of deciding whether we should be in the EU, back to the EC or even the common market, or if we would be better out of it altogether, then we are equally incapable of deciding who would be best chosen to represent us, at the forthcoming elections. Yet they are assiduously courting our vote. for that. The accent is on electing our representatives not our masters. for example Straw said a couple of weeks ago that he normally charged £10, 000 to give a speech. I'm afraid he would have to pay me to listen to him. not the other way around. Gone are the days when people entered politics, honestly wishing to put the good of the country first. Now they put themselves first. The wish to enter politics should automatically debar that person from doing so.  Dennis Skinner is about the only completely, scrupulously honest one there.



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Re: Taken for granted

Post  fuzeta on Wed 8 Apr - 20:17

You are of course both right, I honestly don't know where I am at with him sometimes. I also agree that he will try and fool us with his better deal! It will probably be the same way he tried to fool us when we got that enormous bill for our membership. He did a lot of strutting about and then told us that he successfully got it halved. We all know he did not, he just got money that they already owed us. It's all a no win situation for us. I really do wish we could get out because I think the EU has gone completely crazy. It will implode on us all eventually.

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Guest on Wed 8 Apr - 20:34

fuzeta wrote:You are of course both right, I honestly don't know where I am at with him sometimes.  I also agree that he will try and fool us with his better deal!   It will probably be  the same way he tried to fool us when we got that enormous bill for our membership.   He did a lot of strutting about and then told us that he successfully got it halved.  We all know he did not, he just got money that they already owed us.     It's all a no win situation for us.  I really do wish we could get out because I think the EU has gone completely crazy.  It will implode on us all eventually.

and the last time it imploded they called it world war two. what we're seeing here is the collapse of socialism in europe because they're running out of money and the rise of the extreme right wing who take advantage of these sort of situations and point the finger at those they seek to blame for it all.


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Re: Taken for granted

Post  katertaif on Wed 8 Apr - 22:26

fuzeta wrote:You are of course both right, I honestly don't know where I am at with him sometimes.  I also agree that he will try and fool us with his better deal!   It will probably be  the same way he tried to fool us when we got that enormous bill for our membership.   He did a lot of strutting about and then told us that he successfully got it halved.  We all know he did not, he just got money that they already owed us.     It's all a no win situation for us.  I really do wish we could get out because I think the EU has gone completely crazy.  It will implode on us all eventually.

They are all trying to fool us with a "better deal" I believe the honest truth is that they have entered politics for their own purposes. Of course some of them are extremely wealthy to start with, so money isn't the motivation for them. although it absolutely seems to be for all too many.

The days are gone when someone chose politics in order to be a force for good. At the same time, things  have become incredibly more complicated in our daily lives. I don't think many of them, if any have a clue what to do about governing in this day and age. The day and age they have largely created. You only have to look back through Hansard to see how their opinions change with the weather or should that read how many votes are in it for them?

That seems to be the name of the game now. getting votes has of itself always been the goal, certainly l since the end of the rotten boroughs but what to do when you have the votes.  That is where our present system falls down. in large part because they have built themselves an empire; an empire which takes precedence over the country and they want to see perpetuated because it works for them. never mind us. Our next outing apart from 2020 will be a couple of unplanned by-elections meanwhile they can comfortably get on with it regardless of who forms the government, when the very last thing we need is another 5 years of the same old, same old.



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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Lioned on Wed 8 Apr - 22:30

We are not seeing the collapse of socialism nor the rise of capitalism ! We have seen the growth of the middle working class and the growth of a global economy and increased mobilisation of the 'workforce' and increase in multiculturalism and immgration (legal or otherwise).Consequently politicians trying to win popularity by making pledges to court the voters who aren't as daft as that !
So the peripheral,traditionally extreme,parties will garner some popularity but that will transfer into few extra seats and inevitably we will have no overall majority.
Fact is now we would be better off going back to a feudal system but that wont happen till the oil runs out !
Meanwhile best to share what we've got and ignore the bogeymen !

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 9 Apr - 1:38

Lioned wrote:We are not seeing the collapse of socialism nor the rise of capitalism ! We have seen the growth of the middle working class and the growth of a global economy and increased mobilisation of the 'workforce' and increase in multiculturalism and immgration (legal or otherwise).Consequently politicians trying to win popularity by making pledges to court the voters who aren't as daft as that !
So the peripheral,traditionally extreme,parties will garner some popularity but that will transfer into few extra seats and inevitably we will have no overall majority.
Fact is now we would be better off going back to a feudal system but that wont happen till the oil runs out !
Meanwhile best to share what we've got and ignore the bogeymen !

You're married, right?

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Guest on Thu 9 Apr - 10:10

Claudia79 wrote:
Lioned wrote:We are not seeing the collapse of socialism nor the rise of capitalism ! We have seen the growth of the middle working class and the growth of a global economy and increased mobilisation of the 'workforce' and increase in multiculturalism and immgration (legal or otherwise).Consequently politicians trying to win popularity by making pledges to court the voters who aren't as daft as that !
So the peripheral,traditionally extreme,parties will garner some popularity but that will transfer into few extra seats and inevitably we will have no overall majority.
Fact is now we would be better off going back to a feudal system but that wont happen till the oil runs out !
Meanwhile best to share what we've got and ignore the bogeymen !

You're married, right?

this could be good.


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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 9 Apr - 13:17

Marky wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
Lioned wrote:We are not seeing the collapse of socialism nor the rise of capitalism ! We have seen the growth of the middle working class and the growth of a global economy and increased mobilisation of the 'workforce' and increase in multiculturalism and immgration (legal or otherwise).Consequently politicians trying to win popularity by making pledges to court the voters who aren't as daft as that !
So the peripheral,traditionally extreme,parties will garner some popularity but that will transfer into few extra seats and inevitably we will have no overall majority.
Fact is now we would be better off going back to a feudal system but that wont happen till the oil runs out !
Meanwhile best to share what we've got and ignore the bogeymen !

You're married, right?

this could be good.


Just kidding. I have a boyfriend.

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Lioned on Thu 9 Apr - 22:25

Claudia79 wrote:
Marky wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
Lioned wrote:We are not seeing the collapse of socialism nor the rise of capitalism ! We have seen the growth of the middle working class and the growth of a global economy and increased mobilisation of the 'workforce' and increase in multiculturalism and immgration (legal or otherwise).Consequently politicians trying to win popularity by making pledges to court the voters who aren't as daft as that !
So the peripheral,traditionally extreme,parties will garner some popularity but that will transfer into few extra seats and inevitably we will have no overall majority.
Fact is now we would be better off going back to a feudal system but that wont happen till the oil runs out !
Meanwhile best to share what we've got and ignore the bogeymen !

You're married, right?

this could be good.


Just kidding. I have a boyfriend.  

Always open to offers !

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  Claudia79 on Fri 10 Apr - 2:25

Lioned wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
Marky wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
Lioned wrote:We are not seeing the collapse of socialism nor the rise of capitalism ! We have seen the growth of the middle working class and the growth of a global economy and increased mobilisation of the 'workforce' and increase in multiculturalism and immgration (legal or otherwise).Consequently politicians trying to win popularity by making pledges to court the voters who aren't as daft as that !
So the peripheral,traditionally extreme,parties will garner some popularity but that will transfer into few extra seats and inevitably we will have no overall majority.
Fact is now we would be better off going back to a feudal system but that wont happen till the oil runs out !
Meanwhile best to share what we've got and ignore the bogeymen !

You're married, right?

this could be good.


Just kidding. I have a boyfriend.  

Always open to offers !    

I'm sure Mrs Lioned will be delighted to hear that!

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  fuzeta on Sun 12 Apr - 18:14

katertaif wrote:
fuzeta wrote:You are of course both right, I honestly don't know where I am at with him sometimes.  I also agree that he will try and fool us with his better deal!   It will probably be  the same way he tried to fool us when we got that enormous bill for our membership.   He did a lot of strutting about and then told us that he successfully got it halved.  We all know he did not, he just got money that they already owed us.     It's all a no win situation for us.  I really do wish we could get out because I think the EU has gone completely crazy.  It will implode on us all eventually.

They are all trying to fool us with a "better deal" I believe the honest truth is that they have entered politics for their own purposes. Of course some of them are extremely wealthy to start with, so money isn't the motivation for them. although it absolutely seems to be for all too many.

The days are gone when someone chose politics in order to be a force for good. At the same time, things  have become incredibly more complicated in our daily lives. I don't think many of them, if any have a clue what to do about governing in this day and age. The day and age they have largely created. You only have to look back through Hansard to see how their opinions change with the weather or should that read how many votes are in it for them?

That seems to be the name of the game now. getting votes has of itself always been the goal, certainly l since the end of the rotten boroughs but what to do when you have the votes.  That is where our present system falls down. in large part because they have built themselves an empire; an empire which takes precedence over the country and they want to see perpetuated because it works for them. never mind us. Our next outing apart from 2020 will be a couple of unplanned by-elections meanwhile they can comfortably get on with it regardless of who forms the government, when the very last thing we need is another 5 years of the same old, same old.



Hello Katertaif, It seems the only choice we have is that we vote for whichever party is nearest to what we want, even though we know that it is a long way off what we really want.
I don't believe they are entirely the same in every way. Some are very much worse than others in what they think makes a successful government! I know what I believe makes a successful government so I will vote the party nearest to it. What else can we do?

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Re: Taken for granted

Post  katertaif on Sun 12 Apr - 22:14

fuzeta wrote:
katertaif wrote:
fuzeta wrote:You are of course both right, I honestly don't know where I am at with him sometimes.  I also agree that he will try and fool us with his better deal!   It will probably be  the same way he tried to fool us when we got that enormous bill for our membership.   He did a lot of strutting about and then told us that he successfully got it halved.  We all know he did not, he just got money that they already owed us.     It's all a no win situation for us.  I really do wish we could get out because I think the EU has gone completely crazy.  It will implode on us all eventually.

They are all trying to fool us with a "better deal" I believe the honest truth is that they have entered politics for their own purposes. Of course some of them are extremely wealthy to start with, so money isn't the motivation for them. although it absolutely seems to be for all too many.

The days are gone when someone chose politics in order to be a force for good. At the same time, things  have become incredibly more complicated in our daily lives. I don't think many of them, if any have a clue what to do about governing in this day and age. The day and age they have largely created. You only have to look back through Hansard to see how their opinions change with the weather or should that read how many votes are in it for them?

That seems to be the name of the game now. getting votes has of itself always been the goal, certainly l since the end of the rotten boroughs but what to do when you have the votes.  That is where our present system falls down. in large part because they have built themselves an empire; an empire which takes precedence over the country and they want to see perpetuated because it works for them. never mind us. Our next outing apart from 2020 will be a couple of unplanned by-elections meanwhile they can comfortably get on with it regardless of who forms the government, when the very last thing we need is another 5 years of the same old, same old.



Hello Katertaif, It seems the only choice we have is that we vote for whichever  party is nearest to what we want, even though we know that it is a long way off what we really want.  
I don't believe they are entirely the same in every way. Some are very much worse than others in what they think makes a successful government!     I know what I believe makes a successful government so I will vote the party nearest to it.  What else can we do?

Good evening Fuzeta. That is exactly why I believe we need a radical change in government. For some scores of years now, we have had the tories, the labour party. and the liberals; (now the Liberal Democrats)  fighting every few years over the same seats.  Things have moved on in the real world. Take the N.H.S. as an example.an excellent creation. Paid for through taxation, but totally free at the point of need. One slight problem, operations and procedures and drugs are available now, that were undreamed of in 1947. Of itself that is not the fault of the politicians, they have no more got the gift of second sight than we have. It costs considerably more to run it though than it did; fact whether we like it or not. Another unpalatable fact is that 5 French warships were able to put into I believe Plymouth this week. We do not have 5 warships not even an aircraft carrier. Why? where has the money gone? It all adds up I won't say to  mismanagement or even fraud but it is proof that the same old three system party politics have failed the country, on whatever level you care to name. They are bereft of ideas, and ideology is all that holds them together. We need someone new. Someone to speak for our fears someone to  legislate on behalf of the people.

The  old boy system (that is what it is) has failed us grand style. Our national debt is higher than it has been for many a year. The interest alone would pay handsomely for the N.H.S. The old system has failed, and failed spectacularly. I don't blame the adherents of the system, they are entitled to their beliefs as I think I am although there are those who would not agree. nevertheless it is time for a new approach to our many problems. Starting with going back to Churchill's day in Parliament when we really were represented as against dictated to. You can see them every Wednesday in P.M.Q.s the arrogant ones who believe they are something special. time for a clean sweep. Churchill crossed he floor 3 times. Not, as he put it because  he had changed, but because the party he represented had changed.

If anyone needs an example of a party out for themselves look no further than the Lib. Dem's. For years they cried for a new voting system. PR. It would give them more members at the expense of the other two. No question. Then they got their chance, Junior coalition partner. Ideal from their standpoint. Little or no actual control as junior partner,, but with all the trappings of governance. suddenly PR became much less attractive. It would give them more seats yes. it would also mean they would have to actually implement some of the lavish and unfulfillable promises they had made over the years. There was also the prospect of handing a number of seats to the dreaded BNP, UKIP and others. So they burned some midnight oil and cobbled up a system that a child of 5 would have seen through. A.V. they called it. designed purely and simply and dare I say cynically to keep thing as they were. No change, not even in their ranks. gone are the days when public service meant just that, serving the public good. Yes, they made mistakes, but for the right reasons.



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