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why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 18:45

Alfiefinn wrote:Deuce, yes, keys might be used. But then how would the abductor find his/her way round the apartment without light? Would it not be likely that he/she would bang into furniture, make a noise without light, with shutters down etc. And if he/she had a torch wouldn't it wake up the parents? Also, if Maddie was deliberately targetted how did the abductor know which room she'd be sleeping in (it being a two bedroom apartment) and if she had been in with her parents, wouldn't he/she have made a noise whilst withdrawing thwarted? I assume we're still talking about what would have happened if, as Nellie suggested, she had theoretically been taken from the apartment in the middle of the night whilst her parents slept.

There would also be no guarantee that one of the parents wouldn't be in tending to the children or even sleeping in their room. I'm sure I read somewhere that Kate had spent one night in with the children????

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 18:47

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:If there had been an abduction in the night then wouldn't that have meant someone had to actually break in? Is it likely the McCanns slept with their doors unlocked? Perhaps they would have seeing as they left the villa open while they were out. Didn't they have any valuables - no passports, no money, no jewellery?

Perhaps they would have, there are still a great number of areas in the uk alone where people don't lock their doors at night so it's hard to predict, they did have valuables such as passports and money etc that I beleive were also left in the apartment in the evening, I'm sure had they considered there was a high possibility of theft or that the area was at all unsafe then they wouldn't have left the children asleep never mind replaceable things like valuables.

I realise there are areas where people do feel able to leave their doors unlocked but they are used to living in the area, although I doubt very much if there are many areas where it can be done safely.. I find it very difficult to believe that people go on holiday from a busy area like the Midlands and suddenly feel totally safe enough to leave their doors unlocked.

I'm guessing that you also find it hard to believe that people could leave their kids sleeping while they eat dinner carrying out regular checks but it happened.

Yes I do find it extremely difficult to understand. Plus it's only the McCanns claims that they checked the children, we have no idea if they actually did.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Alfiefinn on Mon 24 Aug - 18:47

Yes, Angelina. i suppose taht's one of the things I was trying to frame into words. Thanks.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 18:49

Alfiefinn wrote:Yes, Angelina. i suppose taht's one of the things I was trying to frame into words. Thanks.

You're welcome...I'm always forgetting half the things I mean to say

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 18:50

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:If there had been an abduction in the night then wouldn't that have meant someone had to actually break in? Is it likely the McCanns slept with their doors unlocked? Perhaps they would have seeing as they left the villa open while they were out. Didn't they have any valuables - no passports, no money, no jewellery?

Perhaps they would have, there are still a great number of areas in the uk alone where people don't lock their doors at night so it's hard to predict, they did have valuables such as passports and money etc that I beleive were also left in the apartment in the evening, I'm sure had they considered there was a high possibility of theft or that the area was at all unsafe then they wouldn't have left the children asleep never mind replaceable things like valuables.

I realise there are areas where people do feel able to leave their doors unlocked but they are used to living in the area, although I doubt very much if there are many areas where it can be done safely.. I find it very difficult to believe that people go on holiday from a busy area like the Midlands and suddenly feel totally safe enough to leave their doors unlocked.

I'm guessing that you also find it hard to believe that people could leave their kids sleeping while they eat dinner carrying out regular checks but it happened.

Yes I do find it extremely difficult to understand. Plus it's only the McCanns claims that they checked the children, we have no idea if they actually did.

Their friends were carrying out a similar system, I doubt they would have heard much on their baby monitor if someone had quietly entered the apartment and carried out a sleeping child. But then none of them were expecting danger that night, the worst case scenario would have been one of the children, awakening, crying and not going back to sleep. And of course then many thousands of parents who use the various forums of child listening, this does appear to come as a shock to some people!

The worst case scenario was a crying child?

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Christine on Mon 24 Aug - 18:51

The Player wrote:
Christine wrote:
The Player wrote:
Christine wrote:
Behind the sofa? Strange place to shave.....

Take it you have never walked whilst cutting yourself. Especially if the plasters are on a table behind the sofa.

The sofa in this case was against the wall. Can you provide a link with the statement of the 'shaver'?

Can you provide one saying the sofa was against the wall?

Just take a look at the numerous videos about Eddie and keela, she indicated something behind the sofa, and the handler moved the sofa from the wall. There was a window and curtains behind it. Gerry stated that the sofa was normally against the wall, but that he pulled it foreward because the children like to play cards and they always threw them behind the sofa.
I don't know where this 'shaver' put the sofa, maybe in the middle of the room. Could very well be.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  fishie on Mon 24 Aug - 18:52

tyra wrote:
fishie wrote:
Angelina wrote:If there had been an abduction in the night then wouldn't that have meant someone had to actually break in? Is it likely the McCanns slept with their doors unlocked? Perhaps they would have seeing as they left the villa open while they were out. Didn't they have any valuables - no passports, no money, no jewellery?


Also to break in during the night an abductor would have to force the security shutters,thereby waking the occupants.


Christine

I'm surprised you find the idea of someone breaking into an apartment funny but yes, if they had used the shutters at night and the intruder did not have another point of access for instance patio or front doors then yes that would require moving the shutters too.









I'm not finding anything about a break in funny,my response to Christine was nothing to do with that.
Those type of shutters do not open from the outside,so anyone breaking in would make quite a racket and likely alert parents neighbours etc.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 18:53

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:If there had been an abduction in the night then wouldn't that have meant someone had to actually break in? Is it likely the McCanns slept with their doors unlocked? Perhaps they would have seeing as they left the villa open while they were out. Didn't they have any valuables - no passports, no money, no jewellery?

Perhaps they would have, there are still a great number of areas in the uk alone where people don't lock their doors at night so it's hard to predict, they did have valuables such as passports and money etc that I beleive were also left in the apartment in the evening, I'm sure had they considered there was a high possibility of theft or that the area was at all unsafe then they wouldn't have left the children asleep never mind replaceable things like valuables.

I realise there are areas where people do feel able to leave their doors unlocked but they are used to living in the area, although I doubt very much if there are many areas where it can be done safely.. I find it very difficult to believe that people go on holiday from a busy area like the Midlands and suddenly feel totally safe enough to leave their doors unlocked.

I'm guessing that you also find it hard to believe that people could leave their kids sleeping while they eat dinner carrying out regular checks but it happened.

Yes I do find it extremely difficult to understand. Plus it's only the McCanns claims that they checked the children, we have no idea if they actually did.

Their friends were carrying out a similar system, I doubt they would have heard much on their baby monitor if someone had quietly entered the apartment and carried out a sleeping child. But then none of them were expecting danger that night, the worst case scenario would have been one of the children, awakening, crying and not going back to sleep. And of course then many thousands of parents who use the various forums of child listening, this does appear to come as a shock to some people!

The worst case scenario was a crying child?

Well yes to their mind that would have been their worse case scenario. they clearly were expecting the night to pass without incicdent and for the children to sleep and for them to have a nice dinner.

Why would any parent expect that?

I understand one couple's child was vomitting?

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  jassi on Mon 24 Aug - 18:59

That just goes to show how poor all their parenting skills were - they weren't checking that their children were alive and still there, merely that they weren't making a noise. Hence, of course, them only listening at the windows.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:02

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:If there had been an abduction in the night then wouldn't that have meant someone had to actually break in? Is it likely the McCanns slept with their doors unlocked? Perhaps they would have seeing as they left the villa open while they were out. Didn't they have any valuables - no passports, no money, no jewellery?

Perhaps they would have, there are still a great number of areas in the uk alone where people don't lock their doors at night so it's hard to predict, they did have valuables such as passports and money etc that I beleive were also left in the apartment in the evening, I'm sure had they considered there was a high possibility of theft or that the area was at all unsafe then they wouldn't have left the children asleep never mind replaceable things like valuables.

I realise there are areas where people do feel able to leave their doors unlocked but they are used to living in the area, although I doubt very much if there are many areas where it can be done safely.. I find it very difficult to believe that people go on holiday from a busy area like the Midlands and suddenly feel totally safe enough to leave their doors unlocked.

I'm guessing that you also find it hard to believe that people could leave their kids sleeping while they eat dinner carrying out regular checks but it happened.

Yes I do find it extremely difficult to understand. Plus it's only the McCanns claims that they checked the children, we have no idea if they actually did.

Their friends were carrying out a similar system, I doubt they would have heard much on their baby monitor if someone had quietly entered the apartment and carried out a sleeping child. But then none of them were expecting danger that night, the worst case scenario would have been one of the children, awakening, crying and not going back to sleep. And of course then many thousands of parents who use the various forums of child listening, this does appear to come as a shock to some people!

The worst case scenario was a crying child?

Well yes to their mind that would have been their worse case scenario. they clearly were expecting the night to pass without incicdent and for the children to sleep and for them to have a nice dinner.

Why would any parent expect that?

I understand one couple's child was vomitting?

I don't understand your question? the parents were eating dinner while leaving the children sleeping, they were clearly hoping that the children would be safely asleep and would remain that way all night. the worst case scenario would be that there would be crying, wakening, upset, that sort of thing. No-one was anticipating having to listen out or watch out for abductors. Hence the mccanns with their regular checks and the other parents with their baby monitors on which they could probably hear a distressed child ... which is what they were concerned about, that is my point. None of them were taking steps to protect thnemselves from a predator.

Am I right in thinking then that you don't see it as particular important whether or not a small child is left crying on its own for some time in a strange place?

Seems that the Tapas 9 weren't particularly bothered about it.

What about one of the children possibly vomiting and choking?

Or having a temperature and needing attention.

Or Madeleine wandering, falling and hurting herself.

Or the place catching fire.

Do parents really not consider these things, because I can't think of any parent I've ever known who doesnt.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  jassi on Mon 24 Aug - 19:08

Checking pulse etc is a bit OTT in my opinion, but if you were leaving children in an unlocked apartment, out of direct line of vision, some 100 metres away by foot, the least anyone should do would be a visual check.

Of course, they didn't want to do a thorough check and risk waking the children up in case it spoilt their 'me time'.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Mon 24 Aug - 19:11

I can understand people having a nice dinner in their back garden and the kids asleep upstairs,with the front doors locked,but i cant for the life of me understand the logic in a nice dinner down the road with the kids in an unlocked apartment. For the good the checks did (if any at all) they might as well have been in the next village.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  jassi on Mon 24 Aug - 19:15

tyra wrote:
jassi wrote:Checking pulse etc is a bit OTT in my opinion, but if you were leaving children in an unlocked apartment, out of direct line of vision, some 100 metres away by foot, the least anyone should do would be a visual check.

Of course, they didn't want to do a thorough check and risk waking the children up in case it spoilt their 'me time'.

Does that mean every parent who tip-toes out of their childs room in an effort not to wake them is trying to avoid spoiling their 'me' time too, or just the Mccanns?

Probably so, otherwise you would go in with hobnail boots on

However, in the case of most parents, they would only be 'downstairs', rather than at a distant restaurant and so resonding to a crying child would be much less trouble.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Alfiefinn on Mon 24 Aug - 19:15

No Tyra, because I'd have thought the majority of parents who are tip-toeing out of the room are only going to sit downstairs (after closing the stairgate, of course), not a substantial distance across a pool in a noisy restaurant with a view partly obscured by foliage, and if they have to get back in an emergency situation they have to go right out through hotel reception.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:15

Nellie wrote:Angelina, Either Jane Tanner or Russell O'Brien were with their sick child that evening, she was not left alone.
She was sick once. There is no record of her choking.

Oh ok, thanks for that.

I didn't actually say she choked.

What I meant was one of the McCann children could have been sick and choked on their own vomit as they were only babies.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:18

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:

Am I right in thinking then that you don't see it as particular important whether or not a small child is left crying on its own for some time in a strange place?

Seems that the Tapas 9 weren't particularly bothered about it.

What about one of the children possibly vomiting and choking?

Or having a temperature and needing attention.

Or Madeleine wandering, falling and hurting herself.

Or the place catching fire.

Do parents really not consider these things, because I can't think of any parent I've ever known who doesnt.

I don't think it's important if a child is crying?

What a strange thing to say.

We are talking about the McCanns and their friends and their choices, expectations and potential anxieties during their holiday, one couple was running checks and one was using a baby monitor from 50 yards away on which over the chatter they could not have heard anything unless their child was crying loudly, hence my point about what the worst case scenario was for them, it was crying, that was the worst they were apparently expecting.

Why is it strange? What I meant was you don't seem to find anything wrong with them being left, whereas I do.

And sorry to labour the point, but I still don't understand why any parent would think a crying child could be the worse case scenario.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Alfiefinn on Mon 24 Aug - 19:19

Yes but Rachel Oldfield's poor little girl had diarrhoea, which she said in her rogatory statement regularly oozed out into her baby sleeping bag. And they left her lying there like that, just going back now and then . So I don't think that was terribly nice,caring or responsible.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:21

Alfiefinn wrote:Yes but Rachel Oldfield's poor little girl had diarrhoea, which she said in her rogatory statement regularly oozed out into her baby sleeping bag. And they left her lying there like that, just going back now and then . So I don't think that was terribly nice,caring or responsible.

Really? OMG that's disgusting.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Alfiefinn on Mon 24 Aug - 19:23

Yup. Also, Ms Oldfield stated that she didn't much like going back to the room on her own to her checks because the route involved was dark and poorly lit. Imagine how all those poor little ones must have felt then.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:26

Alfiefinn wrote:Yup. Also, Ms Oldfield stated that she didn't much like going back to the room on her own to her checks because the route involved was dark and poorly lit. Imagine how all those poor little ones must have felt then.

Oh, nice!!

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  jassi on Mon 24 Aug - 19:40

tyra wrote:
Alfiefinn wrote:Yup. Also, Ms Oldfield stated that she didn't much like going back to the room on her own to her checks because the route involved was dark and poorly lit. Imagine how all those poor little ones must have felt then.

Were they being put down to sleep in a dark poorly lit alleyway or in a holiday apartment bedroom not dissimilar to a room at home?

I would hope the good doctors would be able to afford a better standard of accomodation than that provided at the OC

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Alfiefinn on Mon 24 Aug - 19:41

In a room which they knew wasn't theirs, which often unsettles children. In an apartment which in the case of Ms Oldfield was situated in an area about which she felt uneasy because of the dark, also in the case of Ms Oldfield putting to bed and leaving a very small child who they knew to be suffering from diarrhoea and, also, as said in her statement who they were afraid might be sick, because her father had been earlier that week.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:41

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:

Am I right in thinking then that you don't see it as particular important whether or not a small child is left crying on its own for some time in a strange place?

Seems that the Tapas 9 weren't particularly bothered about it.

What about one of the children possibly vomiting and choking?

Or having a temperature and needing attention.

Or Madeleine wandering, falling and hurting herself.

Or the place catching fire.

Do parents really not consider these things, because I can't think of any parent I've ever known who doesnt.

I don't think it's important if a child is crying?

What a strange thing to say.

We are talking about the McCanns and their friends and their choices, expectations and potential anxieties during their holiday, one couple was running checks and one was using a baby monitor from 50 yards away on which over the chatter they could not have heard anything unless their child was crying loudly, hence my point about what the worst case scenario was for them, it was crying, that was the worst they were apparently expecting.

Why is it strange? What I meant was you don't seem to find anything wrong with them being left, whereas I do.

And sorry to labour the point, but I still don't understand why any parent would think a crying child could be the worse case scenario.

What do you think their worst case scenario was when they went out that night, seriously, what was the worst you think they thought could have happened?

I've already put the possibilities in my previous post.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Mon 24 Aug - 19:42

tyra wrote:
Twobitz wrote:I can understand people having a nice dinner in their back garden and the kids asleep upstairs,with the front doors locked,but i cant for the life of me understand the logic in a nice dinner down the road with the kids in an unlocked apartment. For the good the checks did (if any at all) they might as well have been in the next village.

it's easy to say now in retrospect but as we were saying above, no-one was checking in case of abduction they were checking for crying and there are some big back gardens and massive houses out there, where you need to pack a packed lunch to go from one end to another.

Yes i quite agree,but i only mention it because as ive said in other posts,gerry has said there were dubious characters hanging about the complex,so that should have rang alarm bells in his head.
if he can make that statement (or words to that effect) after the event,i cant understand why he didnt take his obsevations onboard prior to it.
With the best will in the world,the finger of fate can poke you in the eye,but in this case they appear to have told it where to find them

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Sprite on Mon 24 Aug - 19:42

tyra wrote:
jassi wrote:Checking pulse etc is a bit OTT in my opinion, but if you were leaving children in an unlocked apartment, out of direct line of vision, some 100 metres away by foot, the least anyone should do would be a visual check.

Of course, they didn't want to do a thorough check and risk waking the children up in case it spoilt their 'me time'.

Does that mean every parent who tip-toes out of their childs room in an effort not to wake them is trying to avoid spoiling their 'me' time too, or just the Mccanns?

The difference is that the McCanns were tip toeing out of the room, out of the apartment, down the road and back to the restaurant.
Not just downstairs.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

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