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why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Mon 24 Aug - 19:44

tyra wrote:
Twobitz wrote:I can understand people having a nice dinner in their back garden and the kids asleep upstairs,with the front doors locked,but i cant for the life of me understand the logic in a nice dinner down the road with the kids in an unlocked apartment. For the good the checks did (if any at all) they might as well have been in the next village.

it's easy to say now in retrospect but as we were saying above, no-one was checking in case of abduction they were checking for crying and there are some big back gardens and massive houses out there, where you need to pack a packed lunch to go from one end to another.

So who was checking for crying on the Tues night and Wed night;

Mrs Fenns statement

"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted “Daddy, Daddy”, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse"



Cartas Rogatorias Vol V

Pages 11-12

Witness Statement

Statement by Jim McGarvey

"In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.

I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.

Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine’s abduction."


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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Sprite on Mon 24 Aug - 19:45

Alfiefinn wrote:Yes but Rachel Oldfield's poor little girl had diarrhoea, which she said in her rogatory statement regularly oozed out into her baby sleeping bag. And they left her lying there like that, just going back now and then . So I don't think that was terribly nice,caring or responsible.

RO also said she didnt like to go and do a check as she found walking round there 'creepy'

For goodness sake - she left her baby alone there and yet she found it creepy herself.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:48

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:

Am I right in thinking then that you don't see it as particular important whether or not a small child is left crying on its own for some time in a strange place?

Seems that the Tapas 9 weren't particularly bothered about it.

What about one of the children possibly vomiting and choking?

Or having a temperature and needing attention.

Or Madeleine wandering, falling and hurting herself.

Or the place catching fire.

Do parents really not consider these things, because I can't think of any parent I've ever known who doesnt.

I don't think it's important if a child is crying?

What a strange thing to say.

We are talking about the McCanns and their friends and their choices, expectations and potential anxieties during their holiday, one couple was running checks and one was using a baby monitor from 50 yards away on which over the chatter they could not have heard anything unless their child was crying loudly, hence my point about what the worst case scenario was for them, it was crying, that was the worst they were apparently expecting.

Why is it strange? What I meant was you don't seem to find anything wrong with them being left, whereas I do.

And sorry to labour the point, but I still don't understand why any parent would think a crying child could be the worse case scenario.

What do you think their worst case scenario was when they went out that night, seriously, what was the worst you think they thought could have happened?

I've already put the possibilities in my previous post.

I think if they had genuinely considered those risks they wouldn't have chosen to leave them, they don't strike me as insane!

I think the fact that the group did what they did, using checking and/or a baby monitor suggests where they anxieties lay and for that group I suspect their worst case scenario was the children awakening.

They strike me as selfish, all of them. I can't believe that not one of them gave no thought to anything other than crying.

Why do children cry...because they need attention and to leave them crying for 30+ minutes is totally unkind.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 19:58

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:

Am I right in thinking then that you don't see it as particular important whether or not a small child is left crying on its own for some time in a strange place?

Seems that the Tapas 9 weren't particularly bothered about it.

What about one of the children possibly vomiting and choking?

Or having a temperature and needing attention.

Or Madeleine wandering, falling and hurting herself.

Or the place catching fire.

Do parents really not consider these things, because I can't think of any parent I've ever known who doesnt.

I don't think it's important if a child is crying?

What a strange thing to say.

We are talking about the McCanns and their friends and their choices, expectations and potential anxieties during their holiday, one couple was running checks and one was using a baby monitor from 50 yards away on which over the chatter they could not have heard anything unless their child was crying loudly, hence my point about what the worst case scenario was for them, it was crying, that was the worst they were apparently expecting.

Why is it strange? What I meant was you don't seem to find anything wrong with them being left, whereas I do.

And sorry to labour the point, but I still don't understand why any parent would think a crying child could be the worse case scenario.

What do you think their worst case scenario was when they went out that night, seriously, what was the worst you think they thought could have happened?

I've already put the possibilities in my previous post.

I think if they had genuinely considered those risks they wouldn't have chosen to leave them, they don't strike me as insane!

I think the fact that the group did what they did, using checking and/or a baby monitor suggests where they anxieties lay and for that group I suspect their worst case scenario was the children awakening.

They strike me as selfish, all of them. I can't believe that not one of them gave no thought to anything other than crying.

Why do children cry...because they need attention and to leave them crying for 30+ minutes is totally unkind.

But you also can't believe that they went for dinner and carried out checks/used a baby monitor but yet they did so is is not possible that despite you not believing they didn't think about anything other that children awakening that might also be just as true?

I'm constantly shocked by the beliefs and/or actions of others.

I'm sorry, I honestly don't really understand what you are trying to say. Would you mind re-phrasing it please.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  jassi on Mon 24 Aug - 19:59

You don't have to be a millionaire to afford something better than grim spartan

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Angelina on Mon 24 Aug - 20:11

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:
tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:

Am I right in thinking then that you don't see it as particular important whether or not a small child is left crying on its own for some time in a strange place?

Seems that the Tapas 9 weren't particularly bothered about it.

What about one of the children possibly vomiting and choking?

Or having a temperature and needing attention.

Or Madeleine wandering, falling and hurting herself.

Or the place catching fire.

Do parents really not consider these things, because I can't think of any parent I've ever known who doesnt.

I don't think it's important if a child is crying?

What a strange thing to say.

We are talking about the McCanns and their friends and their choices, expectations and potential anxieties during their holiday, one couple was running checks and one was using a baby monitor from 50 yards away on which over the chatter they could not have heard anything unless their child was crying loudly, hence my point about what the worst case scenario was for them, it was crying, that was the worst they were apparently expecting.

Why is it strange? What I meant was you don't seem to find anything wrong with them being left, whereas I do.

And sorry to labour the point, but I still don't understand why any parent would think a crying child could be the worse case scenario.

What do you think their worst case scenario was when they went out that night, seriously, what was the worst you think they thought could have happened?

I've already put the possibilities in my previous post.

I think if they had genuinely considered those risks they wouldn't have chosen to leave them, they don't strike me as insane!

I think the fact that the group did what they did, using checking and/or a baby monitor suggests where they anxieties lay and for that group I suspect their worst case scenario was the children awakening.

They strike me as selfish, all of them. I can't believe that not one of them gave no thought to anything other than crying.

Why do children cry...because they need attention and to leave them crying for 30+ minutes is totally unkind.

But you also can't believe that they went for dinner and carried out checks/used a baby monitor but yet they did so is is not possible that despite you not believing they didn't think about anything other that children awakening that might also be just as true?

I'm constantly shocked by the beliefs and/or actions of others.

I'm sorry, I honestly don't really understand what you are trying to say. Would you mind re-phrasing it please.

Well earlier you stated that you found it hard to believe that parents would use baby listening services but statistics show they do in numbers, you also stated that you couldn't believe that they would leave the children sleeping while as a group they ran regular checks or used an ill working baby moniotor yet it seems that they did, now you say that you can't beleive the children awakening was the worst case scenario for these parents but isn't it possible?

I think I said I didn't understand how parents can go off for dinner leaving their children...let's not forget there was no baby monitor for the McCann children. I am well aware that parents do leave children but, again, I do not understand how they can do it.

Personally, I do not feel that the worst scenario was children crying...as if that wasn't bad enough anyway. There are plenty of things that could have happened to those children and if it's true that the Tapas 9 didn't realise any of it then I am also shocked and horrified.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  jassi on Mon 24 Aug - 20:14

tyra wrote:
jassi wrote:You don't have to be a millionaire to afford something better than grim spartan

I didn't think it was that bad, it looked perfectly serviceable to me, I have simple tastes though ... blush.

Come on now, it was pretty basic Travel Lodge standard - Ok for overnight, but not what you would expect in an expensive place like OC

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Alfiefinn on Mon 24 Aug - 20:17

jassi, I think in Mark Warner you pay a premium for its 'family friendliness' (cough), i.e. keeping your children out of your hair for quite a bit if that's what you want.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  fishie on Mon 24 Aug - 20:25

tyra wrote:
Angelina wrote:

I think I said I didn't understand how parents can go off for dinner leaving their children...let's not forget there was no baby monitor for the McCann children. I am well aware that parents do leave children but, again, I do not understand how they can do it.

Personally, I do not feel that the worst scenario was children crying...as if that wasn't bad enough anyway. There are plenty of things that could have happened to those children and if it's true that the Tapas 9 didn't realise any of it then I am also shocked and horrified.

Clearly now many parents will have another horror possibility to add to the anxiety lists of what if, i don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing, there are so many overly anxious parents these days with all the dreadful stories in the media etc :shock:
I agree there are overly anxious parents,but it's common sense that at 3 year and younger children need supervision,they can awake and get up to all sorts of mischief in seconds.That's why imo a lot of people find what the McCanns and their friends did irresponsible.
If the children had been older at maybe 8+ then the regime would be understandable.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Mon 24 Aug - 21:03

personally i don't believe in the abduction,
but if others do thats their right, but if that said person does believe in the abduction. surely they have to hold the mccanns responsible for it.... the leaving of the children alone, the open/locked door,depending on which ever maccan or friend is telling their story!
If you've taken all percautions you can to protect your child, and someone still gets in and abducts them , then yes i would feel so sorry for the parents.. but these 2 doctors claim they left 3 young children under the age of 4, alone, for whatever length of time, is not right..
Because they felt it safe? Begs the question, these parents are Doctors! and so should have know all the pitfalls that can befall children left alone.
So the children were safe from what exactly?

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Mon 24 Aug - 21:20

Remember folks , on the night in question , there were Baby sitters avalable , the Mcs did not want to use them,( appx 10 euros an Hour ). What was it they said, they did not want to leave there kids with strangers ..... the Baby Sitters were staff that had been looking after them all week .
there is no excuse , none !!! for there actions

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Mon 24 Aug - 21:34

Nellie wrote:
rose wrote:personally i don't believe in the abduction,
but if others do thats their right, but if that said person does believe in the abduction. surely they have to hold the mccanns responsible for it.... the leaving of the children alone, the open/locked door,depending on which ever maccan or friend is telling their story!
If you've taken all percautions you can to protect your child, and someone still gets in and abducts them , then yes i would feel so sorry for the parents.. but these 2 doctors claim they left 3 young children under the age of 4, alone, for whatever length of time, is not right..
Because they felt it safe? Begs the question, these parents are Doctors! and so should have know all the pitfalls that can befall children left alone.
So the children were safe from what exactly?

Let's not blame the abductor, poor soul. Fancy having temptation put in his way. Very unfair.

if the abductor is real (IF) then by all means blame them,string them up if caught.But as for having temptation put in their way,i wonder whose to blame for that,and as for it being unfair,agreed again,on a little 3 year old girl

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Tue 25 Aug - 0:44

not sure if i'm on the right thread, too much to read back on today, but to the argument by tyra that the mccanns only expected crying to be the worst that could have happened leaving the kids alone- i have to disagree - the fact that they said the back and front doors were open would have you would think put in their minds the possibility of the children finding their way out somehow and possibly falling over the balcony - gerry mccann said on gmtv iirc that they did a normal risk assessment unconsciously and it was ok - UNLIKE - when they moved to the next flat which was on a first floor and that raised worries - why were they not worried about 5as with the doors open and a leap into the flower beds? sorry tyra your argument is not strong that way - and them knowning the night before maddie had said she woke up and then said where were you? what if that happened and she went looking and had an accident?

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Tue 25 Aug - 8:48

Nellie wrote:
rose wrote:personally i don't believe in the abduction,
but if others do thats their right, but if that said person does believe in the abduction. surely they have to hold the mccanns responsible for it.... the leaving of the children alone, the open/locked door,depending on which ever maccan or friend is telling their story!
If you've taken all percautions you can to protect your child, and someone still gets in and abducts them , then yes i would feel so sorry for the parents.. but these 2 doctors claim they left 3 young children under the age of 4, alone, for whatever length of time, is not right..
Because they felt it safe? Begs the question, these parents are Doctors! and so should have know all the pitfalls that can befall children left alone.
So the children were safe from what exactly?

Let's not blame the abductor, poor soul. Fancy having temptation put in his way. Very unfair.

the only poor soul i feel sorry for is maddie and the twins,
as i said i dont believe there was an abductor but people have a right to think what they like, saying that, a parents job is to care for and protect there children.. the best they can not put them in harms way..just out of interest nellie, which version of the abductor do you believe in? the peadofile one or the one where she was taken and is being treated like a princess..

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Tue 25 Aug - 9:07

carlymichelle wrote:thats what i dont understand certian people accept the mcanns versions of events like it a good thing and not to mention the shes alive and unharmed bullcrap after 2 anda half years IMO she is number 1 not with us anymore or 2 if she is alive witha swarmy abductor she is very much harmed both mentally and phyisically in a ideal world all of us want maddie alive and unharmed but this story isnt a fairytale this is about a real little girl
yeh, we know.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Sprite on Tue 25 Aug - 9:18

jassi wrote:
tyra wrote:
jassi wrote:You don't have to be a millionaire to afford something better than grim spartan

I didn't think it was that bad, it looked perfectly serviceable to me, I have simple tastes though ... blush.

Come on now, it was pretty basic Travel Lodge standard - Ok for overnight, but not what you would expect in an expensive place like OC

That surprised me - how basic the accomodation was.

For the money that the Tapas 9 all paid they could rented a really nice villa complete with pool and housekeeper. Ok so they wouldnt have had the creche during the day but Im sure between themselves they could have worked something out.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Tue 25 Aug - 9:19

Christine wrote:
The Player wrote:
Christine wrote:
The Player wrote:
Christine wrote:
Behind the sofa? Strange place to shave.....

Take it you have never walked whilst cutting yourself. Especially if the plasters are on a table behind the sofa.

The sofa in this case was against the wall. Can you provide a link with the statement of the 'shaver'?

Can you provide one saying the sofa was against the wall?

Just take a look at the numerous videos about Eddie and keela, she indicated something behind the sofa, and the handler moved the sofa from the wall. There was a window and curtains behind it. Gerry stated that the sofa was normally against the wall, but that he pulled it foreward because the children like to play cards and they always threw them behind the sofa.
I don't know where this 'shaver' put the sofa, maybe in the middle of the room. Could very well be.
I thought he'd said that he'd pusshed it against the wall because the children kept running around behind it?
And don't forget, the dogs went in 100 days after Madeleine went missing and FOUR other families had stayed in the apartment.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Dimsie on Tue 25 Aug - 9:22

Nellie wrote:Let's not blame the abductor, poor soul. Fancy having temptation put in his way. Very unfair.
Nellie, if Madeleine was abducted then of course the abductor is to blame. But in many situations blame needs to be apportioned and it's hardly surprising many people feel some of the blame in this case, if Madeleine was abducted, goes to the parents because they left her in a situation where she had no protection against danger.

The danger could have been many things and as yet we don't know what it was. Stranger abduction we know is rare, but did the McCanns not think of all the other things that could have happened? Sickness, accident, fire - that kind of thing, or even the possibility of a paedophile entering the apartment and assaulting one of the children. People tell their children not to talk to strangers or take sweets from them or get into a car with someone they don't know, but what would be the point in parents showing their children how to protect themselves if the parents don't take even the most basic safety measures themselves on the children's behalf?

String said 'And don't forget, the dogs went in 100 days after Madeleine went missing and FOUR other families had stayed in the apartment.'

Unless they had a dead body with them it doesn't account for Eddie's very strong alert in the apartment. I think the police checked it out!

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Sprite on Tue 25 Aug - 9:23

amethyst wrote:not sure if i'm on the right thread, too much to read back on today, but to the argument by tyra that the mccanns only expected crying to be the worst that could have happened leaving the kids alone- i have to disagree - the fact that they said the back and front doors were open would have you would think put in their minds the possibility of the children finding their way out somehow and possibly falling over the balcony - gerry mccann said on gmtv iirc that they did a normal risk assessment unconsciously and it was ok - UNLIKE - when they moved to the next flat which was on a first floor and that raised worries - why were they not worried about 5as with the doors open and a leap into the flower beds? sorry tyra your argument is not strong that way - and them knowning the night before maddie had said she woke up and then said where were you? what if that happened and she went looking and had an accident?

Add to the above - crying wasnt the worst thing Kate could envisage. She discussed her concerns at dinner that night with JT - asking if she thought it was better Madeleine could 'get out and find us' if she woke. So Kate had actually thought of the fact Madeleine may wake and wander out of the unlocked patio doors.

Her mind was set at rest though by that wonderful caring man she is married to saying 'Oh it will be fine, it will be fine'

IF Madeleine was abducted and I was Kate I would hate Gerry with every fibre of my being.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  ann_chovey on Tue 25 Aug - 9:30

`
Sprite wrote : IF Madeleine was abducted and I was Kate I would hate Gerry with every fibre of my being..

so would I, yet they stick together like glue which has to tell you something.

Re leaving such young children alone, we enjoyed a holiday in Ireland a few years ago, hired a small cabin cruiser and went up and down the Shannon. You were warned not to leave your dog alone on board if you went out, let alone your kids.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Dimsie on Tue 25 Aug - 9:46

Yes, the thought of a child of that age wandering round the Ocean club or its surroundings in the dark is absolutely horrffying. If that's their idea of responsible parenting then the mind truly does boggle.

A number of years ago a 14-year-old pupil of mine (I work as a tutor) told me about her weekend stay with a schoolfriend. The friend's mum had gone off for the weekend with her new partner, taking all her children except her 2-year-old who was left in the care of the 14-year-old (I've no idea why this was). The family lived on a farm and in the evening when it was dark the two girls had to go to check on some of the animals in a nearby field. The little boy's sister was happy to just leave him all alone in the house, but the other girl insisted they take him with them as it was going to take a good half hour to see to the animals. She was horrified at the idea of leaving this little boy all alone in the house and said she would have stayed behind if her friend hadn't agreed to take him with them. So why, if a rather scatty 14-year-old can see the dangers in such a situation, did Madeleine's parents not see them in their own case?

An example of that sort of thinking would be if I left a young child playing in my front garden, with no gate or wall to protect him from the traffic going past on the road. He wanders on to the road and is hit by a speeding car. Am I to blame the motorist for speeding and expect no one to blame me for leaving him somewhere with no proper protection against danger? Am I at fault or not and do I bear any responsibility for his accident? I think we all know the answer to that.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Guest on Tue 25 Aug - 14:30

9 adults left 8 children ,all under the age of four, alone in the dark out of sight out of earshot at a distance of between 120 and 140 meters -it is irrelevant that the distance from the apartment blocks was 50 metres as the crow flies -none of the party had the ability to fly or walk on water across a swimming pool . Each adult had individual and collective responsibility for each and every child they knew to be unsupervised. Many people have suggested that a group of such educated and law abiding citizens would not be likely to cover for eachother-how likeley is it they would behave in such a callous and uncaring fashion towards their own and other peoples children-not very likeley-but they did ,not as an exception but regularly as a matter of routine -not in a moment of distraction or lapse of judgement not by mistake -but preplanned pre-arranged and delibarate-the one who I find most difficult to understand is the grandmother

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Christine on Tue 25 Aug - 14:40

tyra wrote:
fizzbomb200 wrote:Remember folks , on the night in question , there were Baby sitters avalable , the Mcs did not want to use them,( appx 10 euros an Hour ). What was it they said, they did not want to leave there kids with strangers ..... the Baby Sitters were staff that had been looking after them all week .
there is no excuse , none !!! for there actions

were there baby sitters available? I couldn't find confirmation of that in the files, they would have needed four for the group, how many babysitters work each night and how soon do they need to be booked in advance for instance?

The baby sitting service for the evenings wasn't a private one, the children had to be taken to the creche, and collected the latest around 11pm I think. The McCanns said that was too difficult to get the sleeping children back in the apartment, that's why they didn't use it.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  Sprite on Tue 25 Aug - 14:53

woodward wrote:9 adults left 8 children ,all under the age of four, alone in the dark out of sight out of earshot at a distance of between 120 and 140 meters -it is irrelevant that the distance from the apartment blocks was 50 metres as the crow flies -none of the party had the ability to fly or walk on water across a swimming pool . Each adult had individual and collective responsibility for each and every child they knew to be unsupervised. Many people have suggested that a group of such educated and law abiding citizens would not be likely to cover for eachother-how likeley is it they would behave in such a callous and uncaring fashion towards their own and other peoples children-not very likeley-but they did ,not as an exception but regularly as a matter of routine -not in a moment of distraction or lapse of judgement not by mistake -but preplanned pre-arranged and delibarate-the one who I find most difficult to understand is the grandmother

Excellent post and as a grandmother myself I find her actions, or rather non actions, the hardest to understand.

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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

Post  jassi on Tue 25 Aug - 15:07

Butlins - such luxury.

I'm a child of the '40's and never even went on holiday until I was in my twenties

Certainly never thought of leaving children alone on holiday when we did go, though

jassi
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Re: why do people accept abduction like its a good thing?

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