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Amaral V McCann trial

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 18:30

Lilemor wrote:
Beattie wrote:Lilemor

I think Amaral can appeal to the Human Rights Commission, but the ban was only for one month, so now at the
hearing he has the right to defend his theories and bring in Witnesses. What evidence can the McCanns produce to p;rove their daughter is still alive?

So you think the next days must not inevitably be the end?

Hopefully not. This is a hearing about the injunction, but whoever wins would have to consider whether to go
to Trial. If Amaral wins and the injunction is permanently lifted it would prove that he had not committed
Libel, if the McCanns win it would prove he has, so both would have to decide whether to face a costly Trial.

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  keepingmum on Thu 10 Dec - 18:31

Do the McCanns have to provide any evidence that their daughter is still alive? Now that would be interesting. But I fear the onus is on Mr. Amaral unfortunately. But I have all my fingers and toes crossed for him.

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Alfiefinn on Thu 10 Dec - 18:40

Good for you. Can you give me the lottery numbers for Saturday while you're there?

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 18:42

Volapyk wrote:
Alfiefinn wrote:Old enough at the time to still be terrified by that, thanks for asking.

-------- I knew you were going to dodge the question.
Volapyk,

Erm you have only two posts and both posts you are stalking Alfie. Now play nice or open the door and shut it behind you. Consider yourself warned!

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  MJH1901 on Thu 10 Dec - 18:52

from Twitter: KeirSimmonsITV Tomorrow's #McCann hearing may be delayed because there's a swine flu scare in one of the lawyer's offices, i'm told. #Madeleine

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  MJH1901 on Thu 10 Dec - 18:57

from Twitter: KeirSimmonsITV Tomorrow's #McCann hearing may be delayed because there's a swine flu scare in one of the lawyer's offices, i'm told. #Madeleine

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Lilemor on Thu 10 Dec - 19:10

MJH1901 wrote:from Twitter: KeirSimmonsITV Tomorrow's #McCann hearing may be delayed because there's a swine flu scare in one of the lawyer's offices, i'm told. #Madeleine

WHAT?

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 19:12

Volapyk wrote:
Alfiefinn wrote:Old enough at the time to still be terrified by that, thanks for asking.

-------- I knew you were going to dodge the question.
Volapyk. How did Alfiefinn dodge the question. Maybe he doesn't want to put it on a broadcast how old his daughter is.

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 19:14

Volapyk wrote:
Alfiefinn wrote:Old enough at the time to still be terrified by that, thanks for asking.

-------- I knew you were going to dodge the question.

I would be more interested in learning why you want to know.

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 19:15

[quote="MJH1901"]from Twitter: KeirSimmonsITV Tomorrow's #McCann hearing may be delayed because th
ere's a swine flu scare in one of the lawyer's offices, i'm told. #Madeleine[/quote


If true, what a pigging shame.!

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 19:16

I phoned up the helpline, but all I got was crackling.

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Alfiefinn on Thu 10 Dec - 19:20

@TFG - that was a pigging great joke

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  malena stool on Thu 10 Dec - 19:27

MJH1901 wrote:from Twitter: KeirSimmonsITV Tomorrow's #McCann hearing may be delayed because there's a swine flu scare in one of the lawyer's offices, i'm told. #Madeleine

Mitchell is probably involved in some way...... most likely he's the carrier.

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Claudia79 on Thu 10 Dec - 19:30

malena stool wrote:
MJH1901 wrote:from Twitter: KeirSimmonsITV Tomorrow's #McCann hearing may be delayed because there's a swine flu scare in one of the lawyer's offices, i'm told. #Madeleine

Mitchell is probably involved in some way...... most likely he's the carrier.




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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Alfiefinn on Thu 10 Dec - 19:31

malena, I think he's told enough porkies over the last couple of years

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  deborah on Thu 10 Dec - 19:44

Alfiefinn wrote:malena, I think he's told enough porkies over the last couple of years
Oh stop hogging the limelight

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 20:01

The Famous Grouse wrote:
Volapyk wrote:
Alfiefinn wrote:Old enough at the time to still be terrified by that, thanks for asking.

-------- I knew you were going to dodge the question.

I would be more interested in learning why you want to know.
Yep only two posts and volapyk knows more... HMMM

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Portuguese court documents

Post  Annabel on Thu 10 Dec - 20:06

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/court_docs.htm





Alby's Analysis of the Court Document

The attachment is not the full transcript of the court hearing, but appears to be the judge's summation of what was presented to her (allegations by the five plaintiffs - the five members of the McCann family) for a 'cautionary proceeding' against four respondents (the author (GA), the publisher, the video maker, and the TV station) for violation of various personal rights of the plaintiffs due to the publication of the book (A Verdade da Mentira) and the video based upon it.

It appears to contain a recapitulation of the essential parts of what was presented to her, a legal analysis and a decision based upon that analysis, but the starting point is the judge's opinion on various 'matters of fact' that she was asked to consider.

Most of those points pertained to facts about the author and other respondents, but the critical judgement is that, in the hearing, based on documents submitted and the depositions of five unidentified witnesses - I do not know if they were actually present in court, but it is possible - it was proved that the respondents intended to broadcast the book and the DVD world-wide for financial, commercial and social gain, [thereby] deepening the suffering of the parents and making more difficult the search for the missing child.

That appears to be the nub of the matter before the court.
The essence of the five witness depositions is given as:

- witnesses 1 to 4 expressed personal opinions, deductions and convictions [I read this as meaning that what they had to say could not be proven by empirical measurement];

- but they did reveal first-hand knowledge of the growth in difficulties and obstacles to the search for the missing child that arose from each new edition of the book, news of a new edition, interviews by the author, and broadcast of the DVD;

- the 3rd and 4th witness depositions, in particular, demonstrated the intensification of the suffering of the parents that arose from each new promotion of the proposition [thesis] of the author - whether through the book, DVD or interviews - and its repercussions on the search, and the potential for the twins to gain knowledge of it.

- the 5th witness essentially provided evidence on the extent of the publications around the world.
====
The above is my understanding of the CONCLUSION in the first five pages
The section headed RELATÓRIO (Report) on pages 6 through 11 appears to reflect the
allegations, requests and matters of fact presented by the five plaintiffs.

The section headed 'DE DIREITO' on pages 11 through 15 appears to be the judge's legal analysis, albeit that some parts may have come directly from the legal argument presented by plaintiff counsel, but that would not be unusual if such argument was pertinent and well-phrased.

In the analysis, the conflict between fundamental rights of freedom of expression and freedom of the press on the one hand versus the personal rights of the plaintiffs on the other was determined in favour of the plaintiffs [the McCanns]. That, to me, is the essential judgement.

The crux appears to be that the judge had to [had no option other than to ] conclude that the proposition by the author (and promoted by the other respondents) that the parents had been involved in criminal acts, even negligence, had not been proved in the inquiry that is now archived, and so, for purposes of this particular hearing, the fundamental legal rights of the respondents have to give way to the fundamental legal rights of the plaintiffs.

====
That brings us to the DECISION on page 15.
As we get to the DECISION there are two important things to note:


- this hearing is NOTHING to do with defamation or libel - which is the Principal Action to be heard at some date in the future. It limited itself to deciding which of two sets of fundamental rights in Portuguese Law should hold sway in the specific circumstance presented, which circumstance was that each rendition of the proposition of a dead child and the hiding of her body impeded the search for a live child, and this impediment caused additional suffering to the parents who are behind the conduct of that search.


The request was made solely to stop further renditions of that proposition in its various forms.

- the actions requested by the plaintiffs were not granted in the manner they wanted; they were all modified in execution.

The requested actions are shown as a) through f) on page 7, while the DECISION is shown, in the same order and lettering, on pages 15 and 16.

a) requested the unqualified prohibition of the sale of the book and video and that all
remaining copies held in book stores and warehouses be collected and destroyed.

The DECISION modified this to the RESPONDENTS being prohibited from selling the remaining [unsold] books and videos held in book stores and warehouses, and that those [unsold] copies be collected and delivered to a depository [i.e. for safe-keeping, not for destruction];

b) requested the unqualified prohibition of new editions of the book and of the video, or other books and/or videos, that defend the proposition [of illegal acts on the part of the parents], and that are aimed at distribution/publication in Portugal;

The DECISION modified this to the RESPONDENTS being prohibited from doing those
requested things;

c) requested the unqualified prohibition of transferring rights of publication and of authorship over the contents of the book or of the video, or of other books and videos of the same proposition, for publication anywhere in the world;

The DECISION modified this to the RESPONDENTS being prohibited from transferring such rights [that they hold];

d) requested the unqualified prohibition of citation, analysis or express commentary, verbal or written, of parts of the book or of the video that defend the proposition of the death of the [missing child] or of the hiding of her body, by [the parents].

The DECISION modified this to the RESPONDENTS being prohibited from the citation, analysis or express commentary, verbal or written, of parts of the book or of the video that defend the proposition of the death of the [missing child] or of the hiding of her body by [the parents].
NOTE: there is a comma omitted in the DECISION after the word 'body'(corpo), that causes the death to be distinguishable [separable] from the hiding of the body by the parents

e) requested the unqualified prohibition of the reproduction or commentary, opinion or
interview in which such proposition is defended or may be inferred.

The DECISION modified this to the RESPONDENTS being prohibited from such actions;

f) requested the unqualified prohibition of the publication of declarations, photographs, or other documents allegedly connected with such book and video or such proposition.

The DECISION modified this to the RESPONDENTS being prohibited from such actions.

=====
In ALL respects, therefore, the RESPONDENTS are prohibited from doing certain things, but in the DECISION there is no attempt to prohibit other people from doing those things - provided, of course, that they do them within the scope of their own legal rights (and duties).

I would suggest, however, that any argument, opinion or comment as to the possible death of the missing child, or to the hiding of the body under such a circumstance, does not use either the book or the video as a foundation; rather, it should look to the content of the official case file.I reiterate that, in my understanding of it, this is not a judgement on defamation or libel, and my understanding of this is reinforced by the penultimate line


(the last sentence on page 16)
which states that costs are borne by the plaintiffs pending the principal action, i.e. the principal action - namely on the question of defamation and libel - is yet to come.
There is no pronouncement by the judge on the libellous-ness or defamatory-ness of the book or of the video.

Finally on page 16, the depository for the unsold copies of the books and videos was
nominated as being the counsel for the plaintiffs. I do not see any reference to ANY rights - including those of publishing and/or authorship -
being transferred to that person, nor to any other person, as part of this decision. All such rights, therefore, would remain vested in the holders thereof at the time of this judgement. If this were not the case then request/decision c) above would be totally redundant.


Last edited by Annabel on Fri 11 Dec - 9:33; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 20:06

Volapyk wrote:
David wrote:
Volapyk wrote:
Alfiefinn wrote:Old enough at the time to still be terrified by that, thanks for asking.

-------- I knew you were going to dodge the question.
Volapyk,

Erm you have only two posts and both posts you are stalking Alfie. Now play nice or open the door and shut it behind you. Consider yourself warned!

----I see. "only two posts". You mean you have to have a lot of posts to gain credibility, no matter how much bullshit you vomit ?
That´s pretty fascist according to my book but anyway, who cares ?
Point was: Alfiefinn doesn´t answer because he/she ´s now in some sort of Catch 22 situation.
You don´t care about that, fine. Just go after me because I have "only two posts".
Pathetic.
and BTW, I don´t leave fora. Normally I´m banned. Be my guest, Big Brother.
Erm

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 20:07

How many children have you got, volapyk, and how old are they?

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 20:11

The Famous Grouse wrote:I phoned up the helpline, but all I got was crackling.

You sure your"e not telling Porky Pies?

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 20:13

Beattie wrote:
The Famous Grouse wrote:I phoned up the helpline, but all I got was crackling.

You sure your"e not telling Porky Pies?

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Alfiefinn on Thu 10 Dec - 20:17

Volapyk, I not caught in any situation - I am merely exercising my right not to disclose information to a poster I've never 'met' before. By the way, why are you so interested in my daughter's age ?

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Alfiefinn on Thu 10 Dec - 20:18

Well that's saved their bacon

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

Post  Guest on Thu 10 Dec - 20:18

Alfiefinn wrote:Volapyk, I not caught in any situation - I am merely exercising my right not to disclose information to a poster I've never 'met' before. By the way, why are you so interested in my daughter's age ?
Hi Alfie Volapyk has been banned

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Re: Amaral V McCann trial

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