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Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

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Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 0:26

Allegedly Carter ruck have been swamped with complains this weekend, FFS UPSHON has reported me to them


Reproduce from Barbara Nottage attachment I've recieved.

how accurate it is, i can't say. !!


How did the alleged abductor snatch Madeleine in a time slot of no more than 3-4 minutes?

by Barbara Nottage

One of the curious aspects of the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann is the extraordinarily tight timetable in which the abduction is supposed to have taken place. Dr Gerald McCann says he went to check on the children at about 9.05pm on 3 May 2007. He also said elsewhere that he had been an unusually long time in the apartment toilet, and that he had been inside all four rooms of the apartment. In addition, he told the world that he had had time during his visit to gaze down on Madeleine, whom he was to describe as ‘lying in the recovery position’, and think how lucky he was to have such a beautiful daughter. By this reckoning, He could not have left the apartment until around 9.10pm or several minutes later.

Meanwhile Jane Tanner, a close friend of the McCanns, has given statements saying that she saw what she thought was a male abductor carrying Madeleine away in his arms from the apartment at around 9.15pm - although we might note here that in August 2009 at a press conference, the McCanns’ chief private investigator, former Detective Inspector Dave Edgar, said that Jane Tanner might have seen a woman, not a man.

The abduction scenario

So let’s examine this situation more closely.

The scenario put forward by the McCanns and their friends runs as follows:

· The abductor must have been watching the apartment for several days before snatching Madeleine on 3 May.
· The McCanns went down to the ‘Tapas bar’ at the Ocean Club at around 8.30pm that evening, with other members of the group arriving during the next half-an-hour or so.
· Dr Matthew Oldfield ‘checked the apartment from the outside’ at around 9.00pm to 9.03pm.
· Dr Gerry McCann returned to his apartment (5A) from the Tapas bar to check on his children at around 9.05pm. The walk to the apartment would have taken one to two minutes. So on his own timing, he would have arrived there around 9.07pm.
· Dr Gerry McCann was briefly in all four rooms of their holiday apartment, during which time he checked his children. He also says he spent an unusually long time in the toilet - maybe up to 5 minutes, though we have never been told why. He tells us that he paused briefly over Madeleine’s bed and thought to himself how very lucky he was to have such a beautiful child.
· Dr Gerry McCann says he noticed that the door to the children’s room was ‘wider open than before’. He says that at 8.30pm it had been open at an angle of about 45 degrees (half open). He remembers (he says) that when he went to check the children at 9.05pm, the door was now open at an angle of 60 degrees (two thirds open).
· The fact that the door - according to Dr Gerald McCann - was now (at 9.05pm) more open more than it was before (at 8.30pm), has been used by him to suggest the possibility that the abductor may have been already in the apartment when he checked on the children, although he says he only realised this possibility some months after the events of the day. Dr Gerry McCann has said that the abductor might have been hiding behind a door or in a wardrobe while he spent several minutes doing his ‘check’ on the children.
· Dr Gerry McCann must have left the room, on his own account, at between 9.10pm and 9.15pm. He then says he encountered a TV cameraman, Jeremy (‘Jes’) Wilkins, on the road back to the Tapas bar at the Ocean Club, and was talking to him for several minutes between 9.10pm and 9.25pm (Jeremy Wilkins confirms the meeting, but says it only lasted three minutes).
· Ms Jane Tanner (partner of Dr Russell O’Brien) says she left the Tapas bar at around 9.15pm and saw a man walking ‘purposefully’, with a child in his arms, along the top of the road running alongside the McCanns’ apartment. She has maintained throughout that she saw this man at almost exactly 9.15pm.
· The McCanns maintain that they left their apartment unlocked. This contrasts however with what they said during the might of 3 May/4 May. In telephone calls to relatives, Dr Gerald McCann told them that an abductor had forced entry into the apartment by jemmying open the shutters. They appear to have changed this story after both the Manager of Mark Warners, Mr john Hill, and the police, found no evidence whatsoever of the shutters having been forced open. The McCanns now say, therefore, that the abductor must have entered their apartment through the unlocked patio door. But they maintain that the windows and shutters that they say they found open on Dr Kate McCann checking the children at 10.00pm were because the abductor must have made his escape via that route. They say the abductor must have opened the window and the shutters (which the McCanns say they had had left closed) from the inside, climbed through the window, and taken Madeleine through that window.
· Dr Kate McCann says she returned to the apartment to check on the children at 10.00pm. She says she ‘knew instantly’ that Madeleine had been abducted - and then so did Dr Gerald McCann, minutes later, when he says he arrived at the apartment. Dr Kate McCann later told a TV interviewer that because of the requirement for secrecy about the police investigation, she could not explain why she ‘knew instantly’ that Madeleine had been abducted. She has never explained this, even 2½ years later.

The photographs of the apartment taken by the Portuguese police on the day after Madeleine was reported missing do not show anything which would clearly point to an abduction, certainly not damaged shutters. No forensic evidence whatsoever of the alleged abductor has been found. There were no forensic traces in the room, and no fingerprints on the window, window frame or shutters except for one of Dr Kate McCann’s fingerprints. The lichen on the windowsill was undisturbed.


Going by the above scenario, which the McCanns and their ‘Tapas 9’ friends have maintained, the abductor (if there was one) must have either entered the apartment before Dr Matthew Oldfield’s check at around 9.03pm and Dr Gerry McCann’s check which began at 9.05pm/9.07pm – a version put forward by the McCanns months after Madeleine was reported missing - McCanns now want us to believe - or after Dr Gerry McCann left at 9.10pm to 9.15pm and before he was (allegedly) seen by Jane Tanner at 9.15pm.

The problems with this abduction scenario

There are many problems associated with this specific abduction scenario above that the McCanns and their ‘Tapas 9’ friends have generated.

As we have seen just now, there is no forensic evidence that the alleged abductor was even in the McCanns’ apartment, still less that an abductor climbed in or out of the window.

Further, the window is high enough in the children’s room to make it physically very difficult for an abductor to climb through it. It was reported to be 91cm. above the floor - exactly three feet. The window itself is only around 60cm x 60cm (2ft x 2ft). The abductor would therefore have had to climb some three feet, with Madeleine with him, in his arms or over his shoulder. In addition, he would have to have managed this feat without leaving any forensic traces on the window-sill.

Madeleine must have weighed at least two stone (12kg). A task such as this would have meant balancing against the window frame itself, in which case traces of clothing fibres would surely have been found. Even then, it would have been almost impossible to climb through this window even if Madeleine had been asleep. It is surely even more unlikely that the abductor could have laid Madeleine down on the floor or a bed in the children’s bedroom, then climbed out of the window, and then reached back inside the bedroom to pick Madeleine out of the room - all of this without Madeleine or either of the twins waking up.

This whole abduction operation would clearly have been still more difficult either if Madeleine had woken up whilst being abducted, or one or both twins had done so. To maintain the abduction scenario, therefore, it is necessary to believe that Madeleine slept through the entire abduction operation. The description given by Jane Tanner of an alleged abductor carrying a child also describes the child as quiet and presumably asleep.

Moreover, to escape via the window, as the McCanns claim, the abductor would have had to open the shutters. Mark Warners, however, explained that it was only possible to open the shutters from the inside. They are operated by pulling a cord, or strap, on the inside. It is a highly relevant fact (again confirmed by Mark Warners) that when these heavy metal shutters were opened, the whole process is extremely noisy.

But no-one heard the shutters being opened. Moreover, the children’s room was directly overlooked by a tall block of apartments on the other side of the street. Had the abductor really climbed out of that window, he would have been in the view of dozens of windows overlooking Apartment 5A. We now know that the shutters to Apartment 5A were actually closed when the police and Mark Warners’ staff arrived to check them. The McCanns’ initial explanation for this fact were that the shutters ‘must have been closed by the abductor as well as opened by him’. We have seen that the shutters could not be opened from the outside. This claim by the McCanns that the abductor ‘must have tried to close the shutters behind him’ prompts two related and very obvious questions:

1) having gained entry through an open patio door, what would possess an abductor to leave via a three-foot high, two-foot square closed window, with the shutters also closed? The McCanns’ abduction scenario would require him to have opened the windows and shutters, then tried to close the shutters behind him, when he could have simply walked through the already-open patio doors.

2) why and how, having allegedly scooped up Madeleine in his arms and opened the window and the shutters, would he have had the time and the physical ability to then close the shutters, all without making any sound or leaving any trace, without being seen by anyone, and without waking either Madeleine or the twins?

Moreover, all this would have had to have been accomplished in the dark - unless the alleged abductor switched the lights on when he entered the apartment and then remembered to switch them off again as he was making his exit. No-one saw any lights on in the apartment. The McCanns have admitted that they left the children in the darkness, with the shutters and curtains closed, when they went out for their evening’s entertainment.

Therefore, to sum up - according to the McCanns’ scenario, the abductor would have to have:

* First - either picked an opportunity to enter the apartment after the McCanns had left for the Tapas bar at between 8.30pm and 9.00pm - or entered the apartment immediately after he had seen first Dr Matthew Oldfield and then Gerry McCann enter and leave the apartment at around 9.05pm to 9.15pm;

[NOTE: if the former of these two alternatives, then the abductor must have been in the apartment with Dr Gerry McCann during the five to ten minutes or so he was checking on the children - as Dr McCann indeed claimed last year]

* Second - walked through the open patio door without being seen;

* Third - found Madeleine in the dark;

* Fourth - picked her up, without waking her or the twins, and without leaving any forensic trace on the bed;

* Fifth - opened the window - without leaving any fingerprints;

* Sixth - opened the shutters from the inside (with nobody hearing him doing so, and once again without leaving any fingerprints);

* Seventh - climbed through the window, somehow carrying Madeleine with him - again without being seen by anyone, and again without leaving any fingerprints;

* Eighth - he would then have had to close the very noisy shutters, using controls operated from the inside - while still having Madeleine in his arms, or having laid her down on the patio, and

* Ninth - he made his escape without being seen by anyone except for afew fleeting seconds by Jane Tanner at around 9.15pm.

The operation of climbing through the window would have been physically very difficult, if not impossible, to do without (a) even brushing away even a tiny piece of the years-old lichen growing on the window-sill or (b) leaving any clothing fibres or other forensic evidence.

He must in addition have accomplished this whole operation in near total darkness and without being seen or heard by anyone except Jane Tanner. At the very moment that Jane Tanner says she saw the alleged abductor, Dr Gerald McCann was chatting away to holiday friend Jeremy (‘Jez’) Wilkins. Neither man saw or heard the alleged abductor despite being so close.

If the abductor had Madeleine in his arms as he climbed out of the window, and bearing in mind he was in near darkness, he would have been unable to see anything below her or much to either side as he fumbled through the window and shutters and tried to escape from the apartment precincts. Why he would do this when there was an open patio door to walk back through is incomprehensible. The McCanns only came up with the scenario of the abductor entering the unlocked patio door and then escaping via the window after learning that there was no evidence that the shutters had been tampered with, as they had told their relatives the night Madeleine disappeared.

Finally let us look for a moment at another aspect of the McCanns’ scenario. They have claimed on many occasions that an abductor must have been ‘casing the joint’ for several days beforehand - and then pounced and abducted Madeleine when he had the chance. The McCanns claim that he would have been closely watching them, including observing what the McCanns claim as their routine of half-hourly checking.

The McCanns have gone further and have suggested - in a lengthy TV interview for the BBC’s Panorama programme - that the abductor must have been making notes on their movements, allegedly carefully observing the times of their departures from the apartment. But this does not seem plausible given that neither the McCanns, nor their ‘Tapas 9’ friends, have given any details of how often (if at all) they were checking on their children whilst out wining and dining – apart from on the night Madeleine was reported missing.

Another problem about the McCanns’ abduction scenario is that there is nowhere that the abductor could have been observing the McCanns’ apartment without being seen - unless, that is, he was living or operating from one of the flats opposite the McCanns’ apartment, some of which overlooked it. It is understood that the occupants of these flats have all been investigated and their statements corroborated. None of them had anyone in their flat who was watching the McCanns’ apartment, nor was anyone seen acting suspiciously or hanging around in that area during the week the McCanns and their friends were there, except for one man who has been identified and eliminated from police enquiries.

The other obvious problem about the claim of an abductor ‘casing the joint’ is this:- Suppose an abductor had been watching the McCanns’ apartment day in and day out. On the McCanns’ own timeline, he would have seen the McCanns leave for the Tapas bar at 8.30pm. If, therefore, as claimed, an abductor had been watching the premises, he would presumably have chosen a moment as soon as possible after 8.30pm to abduct Madeleine - i.e., immediately after Drs Gerry and Kate McCann had left for the Tapas bar (on their own account) at around 8.30pm.

Yet, if he had entered the flat just after the McCanns left at 8.30pm, how come he was not long gone 35-40 minutes later when Dr Gerald McCann did his check? After all, Dr McCann now believes that the abductor may have even been present for the entire five to ten minutes or so that he was doing his check i.e. between 9.05pm and 9.10pm/9.15pm.

Yet a further difficulty for this improbable scenario is that Dr Matthew Oldfield claims that he did two checks - one at around 9.00pm, (various times have been given for this alleged check) and the other around 9.30pm. Dr Oldfield claims that during his 9.00pm visit he ‘checked’ from the outside but saw and heard nothing. He also said that the shutters were ‘tight shut’. If indeed the abductor really had entered before both Dr Matthew Oldfield’s alleged check (around 9.00pm) and Dr McCann’s check (around 9.05pm), then he was exceptionally lucky, to put it mildly, not to have been detected by either man.

There are equal if not even greater problems with the suggestion that the abductor entered the apartment and removed Madeleine only after Drs Oldfield and McCann had done their checks. Would any abductor really have dashed into the apartment after first seeing Dr Oldfield checking the outside of the apartment at around 9.00pm - and then seen Gerry spending five to ten minutes checking between 9.05pm and 9.15pm? It would surely have been far too risky.

And if he entered the apartment after Dr Gerry McCann left at say 9.10pm at the earliest, he would scarcely have had time to enter the flat, remove Madeleine, open the window and shutters, close them behind him etc. and then be seen by Jane Tanner at 9.15pm.

Sadly, no British newspaper or magazine has offered an analysis, like the one above, of the unlikelihood of the abduction having occurred in the way the McCanns and their ‘Tapas 9’ friends claim it ‘must have’ happened.

I conclude by saying that I am not saying the abduction of Madeleine never happened. But I confess I do find it very difficult to understand, given all that has been said about it, how it could have happened.


Do the lawyers work on a SUNDAY ?
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  jinvta on Mon 8 Feb - 1:21

"I conclude by saying that I am not saying the abduction of Madeleine never happened. But I confess I do find it very difficult to understand, given all that has been said about it, how it could have happened."

I wholeheartedly agree with your summation. The abduction scenario seems virtually impossible, and therefore other theories involving the parents must be investigated.

You state that "We now know that the shutters to Apartment 5A were actually closed when the police and Mark Warners’ staff arrived to check them." Is it known if the window was closed as well? Clearly, the shutters would need to be closed before the window, so an "abductor" would not be able to close both on his way out. Also, how could the curtains have gone "whoosh" as Kate described if the shutters were closed? They can't claim the "abductor" closed the shutters and that the curtains also went "whoosh." I wonder if forensics indicate Kate's fingerprints as opening or closing the window? My guess would be opening.

Further, if the "abductor" were casing their apartment, he would surely have waited until every member of group had left their apartments. Why risk getting anywhere near the apartment whilst other members of the group would surely be headed to the restaurant? This would make approaching the apartment too risky until the Payne's made their way to the restaurant at 8:55/9:00 pm.

In addition, if the "abductor" were casing the place he surely would not have went in the direction he was allegedly seen by Jane Tanner. He would have known the group member's checking route, would have avoided walking across the top of the road, and would have went in the opposite direction. Also, he would have been able to see/hear Gerry and Jez chatting and not have risked walking across the top of the road as Jane stated.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 8 Feb - 7:46

This article appeared on the Madeleine Foundation web site and attracted a letter from Carter Ruck, which does not actually challenge the facts, but says that the article is defamatory.

This is from an email from the foundation, reproduced with permission.

"In a letter dated 5 February 2010, Carter-Ruck have asked us to 'immediately' remove the article on our website, by Barbara Nottage, titled "How did the alleged abductor snatch Madeleine in a time slot of no more than 3-4 Minutes?"

Their letter claims that this article "implies that our clients have lied and that their daughter was not abducted" and is therefore "highly defamatory, casting (as it does), very serious doubt on the sugsestion that Madeleine could indeed have been abducted".
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 8:06

Very interesting Anna - so just 3 days ago....... just in time for 10th February ........ challenging the abduction scenario becomes a Farter Ruckable offence??
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 8 Feb - 8:13

Photon wrote:Very interesting Anna - so just 3 days ago....... just in time for 10th February ........ challenging the abduction scenario becomes a Farter Ruckable offence??

I think that's a very good article and once again Carter Ruck do not give factual details for their challenge, which does not seem to bear any legal weight as the article is based on witness statements from the Tapas 9.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 8:39

I quite agree Anna - I think it's excellent. I was just intrigued the CR are now re-defining defamation to include "challenging the unsubstantiated abduction claim". CR are the biggest bullies in the legal world.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 8 Feb - 8:42

I have looked at the Madeleine Foundation web site and can't find the article. I have, therefore, posted it to my blog and tweeted it.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 8:57

Does anyone know who Barbara Upshon is?
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 9:00

Sorry, I meant Barbara Nottage. Could she be a "plant"?
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  AnnaEsse on Mon 8 Feb - 9:02

Beattie wrote:Sorry, I meant Barbara Nottage. Could she be a "plant"?

Do you mean by the McScams to discredit the MF?
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  ann_chovey on Mon 8 Feb - 9:11

Beattie wrote:Sorry, I meant Barbara Nottage. Could she be a "plant"?

Hi Beattie, nothing would surprise me.....http://trannyfattyacid.blogspot.com/2007/12/start-week.html (old but relevent)?

I was also interested to notice that there was a story in one of the Sunday papers about the police being interested in a telephone conversation made by Russell O Brien. (I can't remember in which paper it was - and frankly it doesn't matter). The suggestion is that the telephone is linked to the letter in the Telegraf in June.

Now I am not dismissing the story entirely.

Not least because I know where it comes from, namely this blog reporting on various rumours gleaned from the web. Although in my telling of the story it is Matthew Oldfield and not Russell O Brien who is the confederate.

I mention it because it is interesting the way in which stuff on the web filters in the MSM; usually a month after it appeared.

My favourite example was a comment by a Mirror Forum user hoping the Madeleine would be found on a rich arabs boat alive and well. But specifically calling Madeleine a 'princess'.

A month passes, and Gerry calls her a princess on his blog and the news is suddenly full of stories about rich Arabs.
I do find myself wondering if perhaps Metodo 3 are not being employed ot find Madeleine at all, and are in fact being used to monitor the internet: which would appear to be closer to their core business. Or it might be that the company is being used to follow up information obtained by the internet spying activites of others.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 9:27

We now know that the shutters to Apartment 5A were actually closed when the police and Mark Warners’ staff arrived to check them. The McCanns’ initial explanation for this fact were that the shutters ‘must have been closed by the abductor as well as opened by him’. We have seen that the shutters could not be opened from the outside
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Is this correct? First I've heard of it.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 9:37

AnnaEsse wrote:
Beattie wrote:Sorry, I meant Barbara Nottage. Could she be a "plant"?

Do you mean by the McScams to discredit the MF?

It is a very detailed account of her thoughts and I think it may be the figment of someone"s imagination
to show support for the MF.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 9:47

ann_chovey wrote:
Beattie wrote:Sorry, I meant Barbara Nottage. Could she be a "plant"?

Hi Beattie, nothing would surprise me.....http://trannyfattyacid.blogspot.com/2007/12/start-week.html (old but relevent)?

I was also interested to notice that there was a story in one of the Sunday papers about the police being interested in a telephone conversation made by Russell O Brien. (I can't remember in which paper it was - and frankly it doesn't matter). The suggestion is that the telephone is linked to the letter in the Telegraf in June.

Now I am not dismissing the story entirely.

Not least because I know where it comes from, namely this blog reporting on various rumours gleaned from the web. Although in my telling of the story it is Matthew Oldfield and not Russell O Brien who is the confederate.

ann_chovey

I don"t know any more than anyone else, but I do find it strange that this "letter " should show up on MF"s site
and was not verified when TB knows full well he is under scrutiny from Carter Ruck.

Gotta go now, no doubt this will be thread of the day, so will catch up this PM.















I mention it because it is interesting the way in which stuff on the web filters in the MSM; usually a month after it appeared.

My favourite example was a comment by a Mirror Forum user hoping the Madeleine would be found on a rich arabs boat alive and well. But specifically calling Madeleine a 'princess'.

A month passes, and Gerry calls her a princess on his blog and the news is suddenly full of stories about rich Arabs.
I do find myself wondering if perhaps Metodo 3 are not being employed ot find Madeleine at all, and are in fact being used to monitor the internet: which would appear to be closer to their core business. Or it might be that the company is being used to follow up information obtained by the internet spying activites of others.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Lizzy11268 on Mon 8 Feb - 9:51

Having read through the original post, I think CR or anyone would have a hard time proving defamation in it.

Just another example of stupidity in drawing more attention to something that would have less attention should it be left alone.

Who is advising these people? (Please accept that as a rhetorical question )
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Dimsie on Mon 8 Feb - 9:58

Photon wrote: I was just intrigued the CR are now re-defining defamation to include "challenging the unsubstantiated abduction claim". CR are the biggest bullies in the legal world.
There's no way that not believing in an unproven theory is against the law! The Portuguese public prosecutor pointed out in the official summing-up that Madeleine's disappearance could be

'neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction'

None of these theories has been proved to be right, none has been ruled out, so all are open to discussion. The McCanns say they weren't in the apartment when Madeleine disappeared, so how can they possibly claim to know what happened to her? That's just illogical nonsense and CR know it; IMO threatening people with legal proceedings for discussing theories about an unsolved case might in itself be against the law as it could fall into the category of threatening legal action from improper motives (something like that, anyway. I read something about this ages ago, but don't remember where or what the case was about). IMO it's improper to try to stop open discussion on a case where there are various possibilities, as detailed by the public prosecutor.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Dimsie on Mon 8 Feb - 10:15

The more you look at the wording in the CR letter, the dafter it gets.

'"highly defamatory, casting (as it does), very serious doubt on the suggestion that Madeleine could indeed have been abducted".

'The suggestion the Madeleine could have been abducted' - why should anyone NOT cast doubt on a suggestion? If I suggest that my missing cat could have been taken by one of my neighbours does the law say that no one can publicly cast doubt on the possibility of that suggestion, using the stated facts (stated by me and by my friends) about the disappearance to come to that conclusion? That that defames me and I could sue someone for defaming my reputation?

Stuff and nonsense.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  lea on Mon 8 Feb - 10:36

Dimsie wrote:The more you look at the wording in the CR letter, the dafter it gets.

'"highly defamatory, casting (as it does), very serious doubt on the suggestion that Madeleine could indeed have been abducted".

'The suggestion the Madeleine could have been abducted' - why should anyone NOT cast doubt on a suggestion? If I suggest that my missing cat could have been taken by one of my neighbours does the law say that no one can publicly cast doubt on the possibility of that suggestion, using the stated facts (stated by me and by my friends) about the disappearance to come to that conclusion? That that defames me and I could sue someone for defaming my reputation?


Stuff and nonsense.

its getting pathetic now,
they must be desperate,lol
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Bebootje on Mon 8 Feb - 10:39

amethyst wrote:We now know that the shutters to Apartment 5A were actually closed when the police and Mark Warners’ staff arrived to check them. The McCanns’ initial explanation for this fact were that the shutters ‘must have been closed by the abductor as well as opened by him’. We have seen that the shutters could not be opened from the outside
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Is this correct? First I've heard of it.

I didn't notice this fact before either, but I believe it is true because you can see this on the photo's of the appartment made by the PJ.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 10:44

beboot i know the photos show them shut, i just thought that gerry had closed them - never read anywhere that they claimed the abductor shut them-you cant shut them from the outside lol just as you cant open them from there either
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  kitti on Mon 8 Feb - 10:46

Just goes to prove Amethyst, what do the press know that we dont!!!

A little bit if 'dripping' got in there lol
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Bebootje on Mon 8 Feb - 10:56

amethyst wrote:beboot i know the photos show them shut, i just thought that gerry had closed them - never read anywhere that they claimed the abductor shut them-you cant shut them from the outside lol just as you cant open them from there either

You are righ't. But I can imagine that he had to explain why the shutters were closed. Maybe it is somwhere in the files.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  fedrules on Mon 8 Feb - 12:17

Didn't Mccann say he opened and closed the shutters to ascertain how easy and quiet it would be for an abductor to open them from the outside..
As for Carter Ruck, it was the police who originally cast doubt on the truth of the abduction claim. Can we be sued for tending to believe the police over two former suspects in their daughter's disappearance. Statistics alone make the parents the most likely culprits.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  Guest on Mon 8 Feb - 12:26

amethyst wrote:beboot i know the photos show them shut, i just thought that gerry had closed them - never read anywhere that they claimed the abductor shut them-you cant shut them from the outside lol just as you cant open them from there either

ah, simples. he opened them from the inside to let himself in then shut them from the inside after he had left.
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

Post  MissGivings on Mon 8 Feb - 12:41

This is a snipped part of Diane Websters statement re the window and shutters that night


4078 “Okay, the other thing was, you mentioned that when you went back into Kate and Gerry’s apartment immediately after Madeleine had gone missing, and I know you didn’t specify a time, and you went into the room and I think you made a comment that Kate had spoken to you about the shutters being, the window being open.”Reply “Yeah the shutters being up and the window open, yeah.”
4078 “Did you see that window at the time?”
Reply “No I, my recollection is that err I think the shutter had been let back down again or err I don’t, I don’t recall the window being open at the time I went so whether they’d closed it because obviously it was draughty for the twins but I, I can’t be a hundred percent sure about that.”
4078 “Okay, but Kate told you that she’d found the window open and, did she mention the curtains?”
Reply “Err well at that point I can’t, I can’t remember, a lot, a lot of what I’m saying is perhaps some of what was said on the night or seen on the night and also what was spoken about later, the fact that you know she, it was the fact the door had, had slammed shut that drew her attention to something not being right in the room, you know when she went to check on the children.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “And err and that, that draught through the window had, had caused the door to slam.”
4078 “Is that the bedroom door that you understood it as?”
Reply “The children’s bedroom door.”
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Re: Barbara Nottage + Carter Ruck

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