Stating the obvious...

Birch didn't have any right to enter the property. He seems a legit guy to me but it is strange he has been under the radar all this time.

However, if this happened to me, I would ask to see the machine in action and then help with any excavation if it proved positive.

Gaining access to the property could have been done in seconds and quietly so not a problem.

I don't see why the device could not have been run on a battery system. I could fix that up myself as I have seen other similar devices.

So, all in all, no probs to actually doing the job.

Re suing, I heard yesterday that the fine would be of the order of e400...no damage caused so really suing is just all hot air.

Several possibilities abound re entry. I definitely wouldn't discount this story because Mrs Murat has guard dogs.

We had a local pub burgled while the owners, who have two Alsations, were in bed sleeping.

Apparently the burglars gave the dogs a tasty treat, with some sort of sedative in it.

Just watched the video at the end he says the police should dig up and remove the childs remains, seems to me they have no choice, and how is he so certain?

I think in CDM today Mr Birch Has asked Mr Murat if he can exgavate the area proove his point. No link in paper edition i think. x

pennylane wrote:

Bobsy wrote:

Panda wrote:I just had a look at the photos, even enlarging it is hard to tell whether this is genuine .......take a good look and tell me what you see.

I see a man with a machine in very much the same spot. I can see the high walls and the big gate, so how he got in beats me unless he was either let in or they had steps/ladders or there is a smaller gate elsewhere. Do these machines run on batteries?

I see what looks like Murat's place?

Having listened to Birch being interviewed, I don't think he's a nutter at all, and he's being careful not to accuse anyone. He also said he doesn't want any contact with the McCanns as he wants to remain independent. I don't understand why he's getting bad rap. We aren't talking a vast area here, and I think he has far more to lose than gain by what he's claiming.

It's not as if the authorities are inundated with new lines of inquiry into Madeleine's fate. I wish Birch luck in getting his excavation objective met.

He's getting bad rap because in his 'investigations' he has committed a crime which makes him a criminal. Furthermore he clearly wants press attention which, in case he was right (and I believe the chances are the same as me winning the lottery) would have ruined the investigation.

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Bobsy wrote:

Panda wrote:I just had a look at the photos, even enlarging it is hard to tell whether this is genuine .......take a good look and tell me what you see.

I see a man with a machine in very much the same spot. I can see the high walls and the big gate, so how he got in beats me unless he was either let in or they had steps/ladders or there is a smaller gate elsewhere. Do these machines run on batteries?

I see what looks like Murat's place?

Having listened to Birch being interviewed, I don't think he's a nutter at all, and he's being careful not to accuse anyone. He also said he doesn't want any contact with the McCanns as he wants to remain independent. I don't understand why he's getting bad rap. We aren't talking a vast area here, and I think he has far more to lose than gain by what he's claiming.

It's not as if the authorities are inundated with new lines of inquiry into Madeleine's fate. I wish Birch luck in getting his excavation objective met.

He's getting bad rap because in his 'investigations' he has committed a crime which makes him a criminal. Furthermore he clearly wants press attention which, in case he was right (and I believe the chances are the same as me winning the lottery) would have ruined the investigation.

Hi Claudia

Yes Birch has committed a crime, probably a misdemeanour, and he may well be a sleazy hoaxer.... but for those of us that believe McCann and Murat knew each other, it doesn't seem completely implausible.

Regarding Birch going to the press.... well history has shown, per the Gaspar and the Smith statements, that going to the police when you believe certain people are involved, can be a backwards step leading to nowhere.

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Bobsy wrote:

Panda wrote:I just had a look at the photos, even enlarging it is hard to tell whether this is genuine .......take a good look and tell me what you see.

I see a man with a machine in very much the same spot. I can see the high walls and the big gate, so how he got in beats me unless he was either let in or they had steps/ladders or there is a smaller gate elsewhere. Do these machines run on batteries?

I see what looks like Murat's place?

Having listened to Birch being interviewed, I don't think he's a nutter at all, and he's being careful not to accuse anyone. He also said he doesn't want any contact with the McCanns as he wants to remain independent. I don't understand why he's getting bad rap. We aren't talking a vast area here, and I think he has far more to lose than gain by what he's claiming.

It's not as if the authorities are inundated with new lines of inquiry into Madeleine's fate. I wish Birch luck in getting his excavation objective met.

He's getting bad rap because in his 'investigations' he has committed a crime which makes him a criminal. Furthermore he clearly wants press attention which, in case he was right (and I believe the chances are the same as me winning the lottery) would have ruined the investigation.

Hi Claudia

Yes Birch has committed a crime, probably a misdemeanour, and he may well be a sleazy hoaxer.... but for those of us that believe McCann and Murat knew each other, it doesn't seem completely implausible.

Regarding Birch going to the press.... well history has shown, per the Gaspars and the Smiths testimonies, that going to the police when you believe certain people are involved, can be a backwards step leading to nowhere.

Trespassing makes it all useless. Even if a body was found there (and I don't believe it for a minute) how could he prove he didn't put it there in one of his 'investigations'? He's an idiot and worse than that, if his claims had any truth in them, his actions would mean that there would never be an end to this case even with a body! I'm convinced he is a simple an attention seeker but if he wasn't he would have ruined it all.

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Bobsy wrote:

I see a man with a machine in very much the same spot. I can see the high walls and the big gate, so how he got in beats me unless he was either let in or they had steps/ladders or there is a smaller gate elsewhere. Do these machines run on batteries?

I see what looks like Murat's place?

Having listened to Birch being interviewed, I don't think he's a nutter at all, and he's being careful not to accuse anyone. He also said he doesn't want any contact with the McCanns as he wants to remain independent. I don't understand why he's getting bad rap. We aren't talking a vast area here, and I think he has far more to lose than gain by what he's claiming.

It's not as if the authorities are inundated with new lines of inquiry into Madeleine's fate. I wish Birch luck in getting his excavation objective met.

He's getting bad rap because in his 'investigations' he has committed a crime which makes him a criminal. Furthermore he clearly wants press attention which, in case he was right (and I believe the chances are the same as me winning the lottery) would have ruined the investigation.

Hi Claudia

Yes Birch has committed a crime, probably a misdemeanour, and he may well be a sleazy hoaxer.... but for those of us that believe McCann and Murat knew each other, it doesn't seem completely implausible.

Regarding Birch going to the press.... well history has shown, per the Gaspars and the Smiths testimonies, that going to the police when you believe certain people are involved, can be a backwards step leading to nowhere.

Trespassing makes it all useless. Even if a body was found there (and I don't believe it for a minute) how could he prove he didn't put it there in one of his 'investigations'? He's an idiot and worse than that, if his claims had any truth in them, his actions would mean that there would never be an end to this case even with a body! I'm convinced he is a simple an attention seeker but if he wasn't he would have ruined it all.

What if a body were found in a blue sports bag, with a blanket? Long shot I know, but everything is now. I just don't see anything happening re this case except a big fat off shore account for the McCanns and a pat on the back too. I'm convinced that we will only find out via some bizarre left field thing..... perhaps this is the start of the rumblings?

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

I see what looks like Murat's place?

Having listened to Birch being interviewed, I don't think he's a nutter at all, and he's being careful not to accuse anyone. He also said he doesn't want any contact with the McCanns as he wants to remain independent. I don't understand why he's getting bad rap. We aren't talking a vast area here, and I think he has far more to lose than gain by what he's claiming.

It's not as if the authorities are inundated with new lines of inquiry into Madeleine's fate. I wish Birch luck in getting his excavation objective met.

He's getting bad rap because in his 'investigations' he has committed a crime which makes him a criminal. Furthermore he clearly wants press attention which, in case he was right (and I believe the chances are the same as me winning the lottery) would have ruined the investigation.

Hi Claudia

Yes Birch has committed a crime, probably a misdemeanour, and he may well be a sleazy hoaxer.... but for those of us that believe McCann and Murat knew each other, it doesn't seem completely implausible.

Regarding Birch going to the press.... well history has shown, per the Gaspars and the Smiths testimonies, that going to the police when you believe certain people are involved, can be a backwards step leading to nowhere.

Trespassing makes it all useless. Even if a body was found there (and I don't believe it for a minute) how could he prove he didn't put it there in one of his 'investigations'? He's an idiot and worse than that, if his claims had any truth in them, his actions would mean that there would never be an end to this case even with a body! I'm convinced he is a simple an attention seeker but if he wasn't he would have ruined it all.

What if a body were found in a blue sports bag, with a blanket? Long shot I know, but everything is now. I just don't see anything happening re this case except a big fat off shore account for the McCanns and a pat on the back. I'm convinced that we will only find out via some bizarre left field thing..... perhaps this is the start of it.

The goal is not only to find what happened. The goal is to make justice. And justice can only happen if things are done the right way. I don't believe this idiot for a minute. But even if he was right and his info could potentially solve this case, the way he did things would ruin any investigation. Is that what we want? To find out what happened and be unable to bring the culprits to justice? That's certainly not what I want so I can never condone people who do things this way.

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

He's getting bad rap because in his 'investigations' he has committed a crime which makes him a criminal. Furthermore he clearly wants press attention which, in case he was right (and I believe the chances are the same as me winning the lottery) would have ruined the investigation.

Hi Claudia

Yes Birch has committed a crime, probably a misdemeanour, and he may well be a sleazy hoaxer.... but for those of us that believe McCann and Murat knew each other, it doesn't seem completely implausible.

Regarding Birch going to the press.... well history has shown, per the Gaspars and the Smiths testimonies, that going to the police when you believe certain people are involved, can be a backwards step leading to nowhere.

Trespassing makes it all useless. Even if a body was found there (and I don't believe it for a minute) how could he prove he didn't put it there in one of his 'investigations'? He's an idiot and worse than that, if his claims had any truth in them, his actions would mean that there would never be an end to this case even with a body! I'm convinced he is a simple an attention seeker but if he wasn't he would have ruined it all.

What if a body were found in a blue sports bag, with a blanket? Long shot I know, but everything is now. I just don't see anything happening re this case except a big fat off shore account for the McCanns and a pat on the back. I'm convinced that we will only find out via some bizarre left field thing..... perhaps this is the start of it.

The goal is not only to find what happened. The goal is to make justice. And justice can only happen if things are done the right way. I don't believe this idiot for a minute. But even if he was right and his info could potentially solve this case, the way he did things would ruin any investigation. Is that what we want? To find out what happened and be unable to bring the culprits to justice? That's certainly not what I want so I can never condone people who do things this way.

In an ideal world I would absolutely agree with you. But unfortunately the cards are stacked ridiculously in favour of bad people with big bucks. Where money is concerned, justice has become a complete farce.

Can't agree with that at all: Yes there are notable instances where that has been the case and others where it may have been the case, but far and away the vast majority are Investigated and Tried fairly and equitably in full accordance with the letter and spirit of the Law and the Justice system.

Things are only Newsworthy, it seems these days, when things are bad/wrong and righteous indignation causes us to extrapolate a few unworthy events into something far more universal.

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Hi Claudia

Yes Birch has committed a crime, probably a misdemeanour, and he may well be a sleazy hoaxer.... but for those of us that believe McCann and Murat knew each other, it doesn't seem completely implausible.

Regarding Birch going to the press.... well history has shown, per the Gaspars and the Smiths testimonies, that going to the police when you believe certain people are involved, can be a backwards step leading to nowhere.

Trespassing makes it all useless. Even if a body was found there (and I don't believe it for a minute) how could he prove he didn't put it there in one of his 'investigations'? He's an idiot and worse than that, if his claims had any truth in them, his actions would mean that there would never be an end to this case even with a body! I'm convinced he is a simple an attention seeker but if he wasn't he would have ruined it all.

What if a body were found in a blue sports bag, with a blanket? Long shot I know, but everything is now. I just don't see anything happening re this case except a big fat off shore account for the McCanns and a pat on the back. I'm convinced that we will only find out via some bizarre left field thing..... perhaps this is the start of it.

The goal is not only to find what happened. The goal is to make justice. And justice can only happen if things are done the right way. I don't believe this idiot for a minute. But even if he was right and his info could potentially solve this case, the way he did things would ruin any investigation. Is that what we want? To find out what happened and be unable to bring the culprits to justice? That's certainly not what I want so I can never condone people who do things this way.

In an ideal world I would absolutely agree with you. But unfortunately the cards are stacked ridiculously in favour of bad people with big bucks. Where money is concerned, justice has become a complete farce.

I'm sorry but if we all thought like that, planet Earth would become an anarchy and we would all by killing each other. I hope you are just as understanding if someday you find a nutter digging on your property at night claiming you have a dead body buried there.

ETA: the idiot could have got shot!

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

Trespassing makes it all useless. Even if a body was found there (and I don't believe it for a minute) how could he prove he didn't put it there in one of his 'investigations'? He's an idiot and worse than that, if his claims had any truth in them, his actions would mean that there would never be an end to this case even with a body! I'm convinced he is a simple an attention seeker but if he wasn't he would have ruined it all.

What if a body were found in a blue sports bag, with a blanket? Long shot I know, but everything is now. I just don't see anything happening re this case except a big fat off shore account for the McCanns and a pat on the back. I'm convinced that we will only find out via some bizarre left field thing..... perhaps this is the start of it.

The goal is not only to find what happened. The goal is to make justice. And justice can only happen if things are done the right way. I don't believe this idiot for a minute. But even if he was right and his info could potentially solve this case, the way he did things would ruin any investigation. Is that what we want? To find out what happened and be unable to bring the culprits to justice? That's certainly not what I want so I can never condone people who do things this way.

In an ideal world I would absolutely agree with you. But unfortunately the cards are stacked ridiculously in favour of bad people with big bucks. Where money is concerned, justice has become a complete farce.

I'm sorry but if we all thought like that, planet Earth would become an anarchy and we would all by killing each other. I hope you are just as understanding if someday you find a nutter digging on your property at night claiming you have a dead body buried there.

ETA: the idiot could have got shot!

I would report him to the police for trespassing, and then I would demand the area in question be dug up and examined thoroughly.

btw I do not condone his actions and believe what he did was totally uncouth! I have no idea what his motives are, and chances are he is a sleazy character, or paid by someone to scupper something. Certainly South African's keep popping up on the scene with various outrageous claims. I'd be a naive fool to accept what he says as gospel that's for sure. But what I do feel absolutely, is that justice will not come in a way anyone expects (if it ever does) where this case is concerned. I also feel it likely the body never left PDL and as I said before.... GM knew RM (imo).

The End Is Nigh wrote:Can't agree with that at all: Yes there are notable instances where that has been the case and others where it may have been the case, but far and away the vast majority are Investigated and Tried fairly and equitably in full accordance with the letter and spirit of the Law and the Justice system.

Things are only Newsworthy, it seems these days, when things are bad/wrong and righteous indignation causes us to extrapolate a few unworthy events into something far more universal.

I think many policemen are at the mercy of their superiors and their directions. I doubt very much Yates left that bag of hacking information un-investigated of his own volition for example.

IMHO this man Birch displays all the arrogance of the McCanns, who feel that a) they have some sort of God-given right to ignore other peoples' privacy and feelings, and b) demand that other people do things, and that it will be done immediately and without question. This makes me wonder who the hell is paying this guy, and why he thinks he's invincible. How would he like it if a total stranger came onto HIS property and started prowling about with a machine, demanding that the garden be dug up? I bet it would be a totally different story then. Claudia is quite right. It is irrelevant what we think of RM. He is a private citizen with rights of his own, and if there is any investigating to be done, it has to be done properly and legally.

As I said, if he had gone to the PJ , they would have obtained permission from Mrs Murat and he could have escavated as much as he liked. What would have happened if he DID dig up a body and it was Madeleiene, would it be regarded as admissable evidence since it was obtained Illegally. ???Carter
Ruck would have found a loophole and if Murat insisted he was not responsible how could it be proved that he was since it appears anyone can get
into the Garden illegally.

Panda wrote:
As I said, if he had gone to the PJ , they would have obtained permission from Mrs Murat and he could have escavated as much as he liked. What would have happened if he DID dig up a body and it was Madeleiene, would it be regarded as admissable evidence since it was obtained Illegally. ???Carter
Ruck would have found a loophole and if Murat insisted he was not responsible how could it be proved that he was since it appears anyone can get
into the Garden illegally.

I personally doubt he would have got to first base if he went that route. Forewarned is forearmed imo.

Well, after considerating many of the views
expressed here, and there are many very
sensible and logical points, I feel that in
certain circumstances the rights to privacy
and property rights must take second stage
when a child's existence welfare and fate
are the over-riding concern.
Birch freely admits that he entered the
property 'illegally' meaning that he hadn't
the consent or knowledge of the owners.
But what if he had prior good and reliable
information that Maddie was there, maybe
confined in a cellar, as Edgar asserted, or
as Birch now indicates as being buryed under a
driveway. Would informing the owners prior
to a search be prudent?
What if Birch and his contraption had located
a secret place with a live missing child under
the ground would the question of property
rights and privacy laws be relevant?

It is, of course, entirely possible that various bodies like PJ, SY et al know rather more about Birch, his claims etc. than we do and that the matter has been appropriately considered, assessed and decisions based on the worth of the claim, resources, protocol and all other relevant factors.

ie What may appear to be clumsy/inept/wrong or whatever based upon the limited info available to us may in fact be suitably professional and correct.

Is it illegal in Portugal to enter someones property without permission? It isn't in the UK, it is Civil Trespass and the Police won't do a thing about it.

aqeleega wrote:Is it illegal in Portugal to enter someones property without permission? It isn't in the UK, it is Civil Trespass and the Police won't do a thing about it.

He must have checked with his lawyers first, but whether they`re up to speed with Portuguese laws I don`t know, but one assumes it would be as trivial in Portugal as it is here. Don`t the public have certain rights to go on anyone`s property anyway to visit, deliver things, look for a lost ball! - depends on the motive I suppose - I think its only considered a crime if damage is done.

Oldartform wrote:

aqeleega wrote:Is it illegal in Portugal to enter someones property without permission? It isn't in the UK, it is Civil Trespass and the Police won't do a thing about it.

He must have checked with his lawyers first, but whether they`re up to speed with Portuguese laws I don`t know, but one assumes it would be as trivial in Portugal as it is here. Don`t the public have certain rights to go on anyone`s property anyway to visit, deliver things, look for a lost ball! - depends on the motive I suppose - I think its only considered a crime if damage is done.

I would think if the property has a perimeter fence then it could be trespass even in Portugal.

marxman wrote:I get the feeling that this maybe about
'teasing' out reaction from some very
worried people in the know.
It really makes no sense because from
a practical and logical sense it would
be quite easy to rip up and repair the
drive-way with the minimum fuss.
Therefore, I beieve its more to do with
'mind games' rather than a dig up.
Very interesting that silence has taken
root within the mccann camp.

Out of all the posts Ive read today this is the best by far...... spot on!!!!

marxman wrote:Well, after considerating many of the views
expressed here, and there are many very
sensible and logical points, I feel that in
certain circumstances the rights to privacy
and property rights must take second stage
when a child's existence welfare and fate
are the over-riding concern.
Birch freely admits that he entered the
property 'illegally' meaning that he hadn't
the consent or knowledge of the owners.
But what if he had prior good and reliable
information that Maddie was there, maybe
confined in a cellar, as Edgar asserted, or
as Birch now indicates as being buryed under a
driveway. Would informing the owners prior
to a search be prudent?
What if Birch and his contraption had located
a secret place with a live missing child under
the ground would the question of property
rights and privacy laws be relevant?

That is why there are authorities!

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

What if a body were found in a blue sports bag, with a blanket? Long shot I know, but everything is now. I just don't see anything happening re this case except a big fat off shore account for the McCanns and a pat on the back. I'm convinced that we will only find out via some bizarre left field thing..... perhaps this is the start of it.

The goal is not only to find what happened. The goal is to make justice. And justice can only happen if things are done the right way. I don't believe this idiot for a minute. But even if he was right and his info could potentially solve this case, the way he did things would ruin any investigation. Is that what we want? To find out what happened and be unable to bring the culprits to justice? That's certainly not what I want so I can never condone people who do things this way.

In an ideal world I would absolutely agree with you. But unfortunately the cards are stacked ridiculously in favour of bad people with big bucks. Where money is concerned, justice has become a complete farce.

I'm sorry but if we all thought like that, planet Earth would become an anarchy and we would all by killing each other. I hope you are just as understanding if someday you find a nutter digging on your property at night claiming you have a dead body buried there.

ETA: the idiot could have got shot!

I would report him to the police for trespassing, and then I would demand the area in question be dug up and examined thoroughly.

btw I do not condone his actions and believe what he did was totally uncouth! I have no idea what his motives are, and chances are he is a sleazy character, or paid by someone to scupper something. Certainly South African's keep popping up on the scene with various outrageous claims. I'd be a naive fool to accept what he says as gospel that's for sure. But what I do feel absolutely, is that justice will not come in a way anyone expects (if it ever does) where this case is concerned. I also feel it likely the body never left PDL and as I said before.... GM knew RM (imo).

Murat can't demand anything. There are proper channels to go through (legally speaking) and the parents of the missing child are supposed to be the interested party so they should request something is done. Of course he can dig whatever he wants in his own garden but that's basically it. And I'm pretty sure that if he tried to dig anything in his property he would be accused of destroying evidence, making a body disappear, etc.