Control!

kitti wrote:Who was it that said that they want to control what comes out off the media?

Kate McCann rang up the pj and booked an appointment for the twins to have hair samples taken....when Gerry McCann returned from somewhere and found out this he rang up and cancelled THAT appointment.....why haven't the media latched onto that.

Hi kitti , do you or does anyone have a report or link or anything to where it say's they / GM refused to let hair samples be taken. This might be relevant to the forensics not being able to identify a sample belonging to Madeleine, if they didn't have reference samples from the twins to compare with any hairs found.

I didn't know about that either. The PJ certainly never got the result from the one hair (I think) that the FSS was analysing for them. It's in his book. Considering what he went through, it's a very measured account of what happened.

To get back to the control issue: I wonder if the reason the abduction was faked the way it was, is because there was full control over the location.
The location was in effect a stage set, the reasons given why they were sure she was abducted, was the impossibility for her to get out by herself, initially the shutters and the left behind blanket and toy. Which also was said to be out of reach on a ledge.

I - and I'm sure many others - have always wondered that if you're going to fake an abduction, one can think of quite a few different ways to do it.

But I suppose that e.g. saying she went with someone on the beach would be too public, picked up in a car - all these pose problems if there are other people around. Still I'm sure that people can come up with a better story than the one we were given.

tigger wrote:I didn't know about that either. The PJ certainly never got the result from the one hair (I think) that the FSS was analysing for them. It's in his book. Considering what he went through, it's a very measured account of what happened.

To get back to the control issue: I wonder if the reason the abduction was faked the way it was, is because there was full control over the location.
The location was in effect a stage set, the reasons given why they were sure she was abducted, was the impossibility for her to get out by herself, initially the shutters and the left behind blanket and toy. Which also was said to be out of reach on a ledge.

I - and I'm sure many others - have always wondered that if you're going to fake an abduction, one can think of quite a few different ways to do it.

But I suppose that e.g. saying she went with someone on the beach would be too public, picked up in a car - all these pose problems if there are other people around. Still I'm sure that people can come up with a better story than the one we were given.

They found 12 hairs on tops supposedly belonging to Madeleine and 111 human hairs in the apt., 53 I believe were from KM or someone from the same maternal blood line , none were identified as specifically belonging to Madeleine. They didn't have a genuine control sample of Madeleine to compare with any evidentiary hair samples and this could be the reason why & in turn why the forensics on the hair samples proved inconclusive.

sorry don't mean to be off topic but this is a bit of a revelation for me

Here you are Eli!
From The Truth of the Lie.

The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine's, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine's or her parents' or her brother's or her sister's, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.

tigger wrote:Here you are Eli!
From The Truth of the Lie.

The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine's, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine's or her parents' or her brother's or her sister's, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.

Thanks tigger, without genuine reference samples from the twins it would have been an impossibility for forensics to compare and identify / eliminate any hairs found in the scenic or anywhere else.

matthew wrote:Theres not many matches played on thursdays in GB,never thought about that...i know man utd lost to ac milan the night before

Hi Matthew

Yep - even I know that there's rarely football on telly on a Thursday evening - it's normally Saturday or Wednesdays isn't it?

K could have been joking when she suggested G was watching football, but on the Madeleine was Here video, JT made it sound like it was more than K's speculation when she said to G - 'K was moaning that you were taking too long watching the football'. An odd detail for JT to mention in that moment, I feel, and even odder that she thought it appropriate to laugh.

Not Born Yesterday wrote:This clip looks as if Gerry moved in very quickly to stop Jane Tanner from saying too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na4aBr5PTYY&feature=relmfu

Just after 1.50 Jane says something about Kate complaining of Gerry being gone for a long time due to watching football and he cuts in immediately and changes the subject.

Don't know about anyone else but I think Kate
slips-up at 7.50 when she describes Madeleine
as having "those eyes, those eyes that never close."
Must indicate the difficulty they had getting her
to sleep and staying asleep?
Then why leave her alone? or did they?

Didn't Kate make a big thing of placing medication in a bag and putting it somewhere safe?

Wintabells wrote:

matthew wrote:Theres not many matches played on thursdays in GB,never thought about that...i know man utd lost to ac milan the night before

Hi Matthew

Yep - even I know that there's rarely football on telly on a Thursday evening - it's normally Saturday or Wednesdays isn't it?

K could have been joking when she suggested G was watching football, but on the Madeleine was Here video, JT made it sound like it was more than K's speculation when she said to G - 'K was moaning that you were taking too long watching the football'. An odd detail for JT to mention in that moment, I feel, and even odder that she thought it appropriate to laugh.

We have europa league games on a thursday but come may time when its semi-finals/finals i dont think they are on thursdays,England club fixtures could be most days apart from thursdays,lol just found this
On May 3rd 2007, there were 2 Europa Cup semi finals (2nd legs) matches being played...starting at 8.45pm Portuguese time. One match was Espanyol v Werder Bremen, and the other match was Osasuna v Sevilla. Thats 3 Spanish teams and a German team...no British teams...hardly the might of barca, real, munich, liverpool etc
Not the games i would watch if you were so into each other

marxman wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:This clip looks as if Gerry moved in very quickly to stop Jane Tanner from saying too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na4aBr5PTYY&feature=relmfu

Just after 1.50 Jane says something about Kate complaining of Gerry being gone for a long time due to watching football and he cuts in immediately and changes the subject.

Don't know about anyone else but I think Kate
slips-up at 7.50 when she describes Madeleine
as having "those eyes, those eyes that never close."
Must indicate the difficulty they had getting her
to sleep and staying asleep?
Then why leave her alone? or did they?

Thanks for that. Yes, it struck me with that crying episode which they moved to the next night, the important thing was that she'd woken up, not that she'd cried! Gerry says that one night she must have come 'through', the frequent mention in the diary about how difficult bed time was with the twins - those children were routinely given Calpol imo.
But even so, it seems Maddie could not be 'controlled'. Add to that the family saying 'She was a screamer' - 'That girl could throw a tantrum' and we're looking at a 'very difficult' child. Last quote from Kate herself.


I think the football remark is important to them for some reason. To cover for Gerry being gone a longish time? It's an idiotic excuse, because turning the TV on would surely wake the children up and they didn't even want to turn the light on in the children's room so as not to wake them.
That remark should perhaps go in Iris' topic on questions answered before they're asked?

Bobsy wrote:Didn't Kate make a big thing of placing medication in a bag and putting it somewhere safe?

KM statement.....

When asked, she said that before they left she took some precautions, namely placed the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (packages in liquid for the children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting items that were used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight. During their trips it was normal for them to take these medicines. During these holidays she never gave any medicine to her children, nor did Gerry. She now says that Gerry also took medicine for acidity called Losec (omeprozole) which they also possessed.


(And then they went out and left the door unlocked)! allegedly.

ann_chovey wrote:

Bobsy wrote:Didn't Kate make a big thing of placing medication in a bag and putting it somewhere safe?

KM statement.....

When asked, she said that before they left she took some precautions, namely placed the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (packages in liquid for the children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting items that were used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight. During their trips it was normal for them to take these medicines. During these holidays she never gave any medicine to her children, nor did Gerry. She now says that Gerry also took medicine for acidity called Losec (omeprozole) which they also possessed.


(And then they went out and left the door unlocked)! allegedly.

Thank you ann chovey. So there we have Calpol and Nurofen mentioned as well as Losec being placed in a clasped bag and stored away safely which means to me before they went out these medicines were not in the bag, as KM states she placed them inside the bag. So why were they out? Were they being used?

I prefer gerrys comment.....at 5.01.....stumbling on the 'g' and changed it to..'Stick my head in'



What he was neally going to say is.....'at no point during the holiday did I GO IN'...he changed it to 'pop my head round' making it look like he went Into the apt every night and stuck his head round the door.

Bobsy wrote:

ann_chovey wrote:

Bobsy wrote:Didn't Kate make a big thing of placing medication in a bag and putting it somewhere safe?

KM statement.....

When asked, she said that before they left she took some precautions, namely placed the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (packages in liquid for the children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting items that were used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight. During their trips it was normal for them to take these medicines. During these holidays she never gave any medicine to her children, nor did Gerry. She now says that Gerry also took medicine for acidity called Losec (omeprozole) which they also possessed.


(And then they went out and left the door unlocked)! allegedly.

Thank you ann chovey. So there we have Calpol and Nurofen mentioned as well as Losec being placed in a clasped bag and stored away safely which means to me before they went out these medicines were not in the bag, as KM states she placed them inside the bag. So why were they out? Were they being used?

Errmmph! Filtering through the brain now - the crying incident was mentioned by the mcCanns on the 4th, they even asked the liaison officer from LP to mention it again to the PJ that it was very important.
I'm only now connecting the 'cutting items in the kitchen which were not put out of sight' to the medicine bag, the crying and the alleged doping of the children.

The cutting items not out of sight, as given in evidence by Kate herself, would constitute yet anyother parental lapse. Small children, capable of climbing, capable of picking up sharp implements.
But it looks to me as if that little detail was to add to the picture of an abductor who did a dry run on Wednesday night, made Maddie cry, but found the Calpol and the handy sharp implements.

Perhaps too, the admission of having the medicines (allegedly for their own use) would cover them if the twins were to be tested for drugs. Then it would definitely have been the very able abductor who had done it.

Iris - another one for your questions answered? - and we're also back to control. In the first post when Gerry talked about controlling even the smallest things..

Just two random comments whilst they're in my mind.....

'control' and 'influence' are GM's favourite words.

I didn't think Calpol was a sedative. It certainly didn't sedate my 3 year old anyway....

Nor mine, Wintabells. But I do believe there was a Calpol Night, that did sedate. Does anyone know if this is correct?

wjk wrote:Nor mine, Wintabells. But I do believe there was a Calpol Night, that did sedate. Does anyone know if this is correct?

All I know is that it's illegal to use on children in Portugal. There may of course have been similar but stronger medication available but not included in the bag.For the twins to stay asleep all that evening and night as far as I know (I believe they were taken up to the Payne's apartment around 4 in the morning - still asleep despite the bedroom being more like Piccadilly Circus than anything else).
Surely the sleeping drug must have been administered some time around 7.00 to 7.30? That would mean about nine to ten hours uninterrupted sleep. Don't know if Calpol night would do that. It's the not waking up at all that does point to a pretty heavy dose.

In my experience Calpol and other similar branded products do not guarantee sleep. I think it was more likely an antihystamene that was given to the children. Something like phenergan, available over the counter for older kids but usually only given on prescription to younger children as the dosage is based on the weight of the child. This will most definately put most children to sleep. When my son was prescribed this by my doctor at aged 3, I was given a very stern warning about the danger of him becoming drowsy and falling and hitting his head (ironic now). It is often used by parents to "calm" small children during long haul flights and ensure sleep. There are some on whom it has the opposite effect, they go hyper, but one dose and you will know which way your child will react.

Given their medical background, they could have obtained anything. However, if I were asked to suggest a run of the mill, over the counter medication, it is this I would choose. Calpol will only overdose them in paracetamol.

I can well believe that, I took some anti-histamine once - one that doesn't make you drowsy and slept through most of the lectures at a conference.
Worked brilliantly for sleeping, not so much for the hay fever.

So it could really knock little ones right out I'd think. In my experience doctors dose themselves quite often. I had a friend who was a registrar and to make sure she got enough sleep, she'd take sleeping tablets even though she normally had no problems sleeping.

I don't remember seeing this video before , but again, the contradiction from Oldfield, first of all it was said he went into 5a, then he said he listened at the Window, In this video he says he saw the twins in their cots. Seeing as how there was no light and the twins cots would have had them sleeping quite low down there would be little to see of the Twins. Anyway, he changed his statement to say he listened outside the Window.

Kate gave that South African Guy hair from Madeleine's hairbrush to use on his quest to find her, how come she couldn't find any to give to the Portugese Police when they were sending samples to FSS.???

Panda wrote:I don't remember seeing this video before , but again, the contradiction from Oldfield, first of all it was said he went into 5a, then he said he listened at the Window, In this video he says he saw the twins in their cots. Seeing as how there was no light and the twins cots would have had them sleeping quite low down there would be little to see of the Twins. Anyway, he changed his statement to say he listened outside the Window.

Kate gave that South African Guy hair from Madeleine's hairbrush to use on his quest to find her, how come she couldn't find any to give to the Portugese Police when they were sending samples to FSS.???

Six million dollar question that Panda, but if they didn't get hair samples from Madeleine or the twins as suggested to use for comparison purposes there would be no way forensics could find out whose hairs that were found in the apartment or scenic belonged to and so wouldn't be able to eliminate the twins as possible contributors to any hairs found at the crime scene, which as the forensic report proves, they couldn't.

Panda wrote:I don't remember seeing this video before , but again, the contradiction from Oldfield, first of all it was said he went into 5a, then he said he listened at the Window, In this video he says he saw the twins in their cots. Seeing as how there was no light and the twins cots would have had them sleeping quite low down there would be little to see of the Twins. Anyway, he changed his statement to say he listened outside the Window.

Kate gave that South African Guy hair from Madeleine's hairbrush to use on his quest to find her, how come she couldn't find any to give to the Portugese Police when they were sending samples to FSS.???

Didn't Oldfield listen at the window earlier on at around 9pm and then go into the apartment at 9.30pm? Or so he said!

ELI wrote:

Panda wrote:I don't remember seeing this video before , but again, the contradiction from Oldfield, first of all it was said he went into 5a, then he said he listened at the Window, In this video he says he saw the twins in their cots. Seeing as how there was no light and the twins cots would have had them sleeping quite low down there would be little to see of the Twins. Anyway, he changed his statement to say he listened outside the Window.

Kate gave that South African Guy hair from Madeleine's hairbrush to use on his quest to find her, how come she couldn't find any to give to the Portugese Police when they were sending samples to FSS.???

Six million dollar question that Panda, but if they didn't get hair samples from Madeleine or the twins as suggested to use for comparison purposes there would be no way forensics could find out whose hairs that were found in the apartment or scenic belonged to and so wouldn't be able to eliminate the twins as possible contributors to any hairs found at the crime scene, which as the forensic report proves, they couldn't.

Hi Eli, don't you just wonder how the McCanns managed to call the shots from day one???? The qotes from Kate's Book in the thread I posted earlier with the Blacksmith Article, shows how Kate treated the Portugese with contempt. As for the hair samples, I think at one time Kate said Madeleine and the twins shared the same Hairbrush....yet no one thought to ask her how she could have isolated Madeleine's to give to Krugel, I think that was his name.

AnnaEsse wrote:

Panda wrote:I don't remember seeing this video before , but again, the contradiction from Oldfield, first of all it was said he went into 5a, then he said he listened at the Window, In this video he says he saw the twins in their cots. Seeing as how there was no light and the twins cots would have had them sleeping quite low down there would be little to see of the Twins. Anyway, he changed his statement to say he listened outside the Window.

Kate gave that South African Guy hair from Madeleine's hairbrush to use on his quest to find her, how come she couldn't find any to give to the Portugese Police when they were sending samples to FSS.???

Didn't Oldfield listen at the window earlier on at around 9pm and then go into the apartment at 9.30pm? Or so he said!

Hi AnnaEsse, it was Gerry who was there about 9pm , then Jane put her foot in it by saying Kate was annoyed with Gerry for staying in the apartment watching football, but apparently that was the night before. I'll say it again, the Portugese made a BIG mistake by not asking the Tapas 9 to attend a recon while 5a was rented to them.

At the Mentorn recon, Oldfield says he listened at the window at 9.30pm, in this video he says he went into 5a.....didn't he go back to Portugal to alter his statement???? I seem to remember his Lawyer saying he had..

Panda wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

Panda wrote:I don't remember seeing this video before , but again, the contradiction from Oldfield, first of all it was said he went into 5a, then he said he listened at the Window, In this video he says he saw the twins in their cots. Seeing as how there was no light and the twins cots would have had them sleeping quite low down there would be little to see of the Twins. Anyway, he changed his statement to say he listened outside the Window.

Kate gave that South African Guy hair from Madeleine's hairbrush to use on his quest to find her, how come she couldn't find any to give to the Portugese Police when they were sending samples to FSS.???

Didn't Oldfield listen at the window earlier on at around 9pm and then go into the apartment at 9.30pm? Or so he said!

Hi AnnaEsse, it was Gerry who was there about 9pm , then Jane put her foot in it by saying Kate was annoyed with Gerry for staying in the apartment watching football, but apparently that was the night before. I'll say it again, the Portugese made a BIG mistake by not asking the Tapas 9 to attend a recon while 5a was rented to them.

At the Mentorn recon, Oldfield says he listened at the window at 9.30pm, in this video he says he went into 5a.....didn't he go back to Portugal to alter his statement???? I seem to remember his Lawyer saying he had..

Wasn't Oldfield a bit miffed when Gerry went at just after 9pm because he had just listened?

ETA: