The weakest link? DW

AnnaEsse wrote:

kathybelle wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

kathybelle wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

I believe Diane Webster said that most of the time she did her own thing on that holiday, rather than join in with the others all the time in the day. I don't think they "took a granny on holiday." I think she was there as another member of a group of people going on holiday together. When I go on holiday with my daughter and her family I am not a granny being taken on holiday. We go as a family and we go out in the evening as a family. Why should it be assumed that Diane, as the mother of Fiona, grandmother to Fiona's children, was there as a babysitter? It was surely her holiday too.

Hi AnnaEsse

I can see your point, regarding Diane Webster, going on holiday with this group, but not to babysit. However if my daughter and her husband had children and they asked me to go on holiday with them, but not as a babysitter, I would freak out, if they said we were all going out for the evening, but they wouldn't be taking their children with them. They would be leaving their children unsupervised, but they would be taking a baby monitor with them.

I agree it was Diane Webster's holiday, but if her daughter and son-in-law, weren't prepared to have their children looked after by a baby sitter, or in the creche, I feel she should have refused to go with them. Someone should have been with these children and the children of the rest of the group, including the McCann children.

Always assuming this is what really happened, because Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida, stated in his report to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, that the whole group lied from the beginning of the investigation.

Why should it have been her responsibility more than that of the parents? Why should she refuse to go? The Payne children were the responsibility of their parents.

I know the children were the responsibility of their parents, but if they weren't prepared to take responsibility for their childrens welfare, then Diane Webster should have.

I don't know how Diane Webster, could wine and dine with her daughter and son-in-law, knowing the situation her grandchildren were being left in.

I don't know how any of them could have wined and dined knowing that all of the children were on their own. I still don't think she's the weakest link, though. The ones who left the table, especially Russell O'Brien and Matthew Oldfield probably know a lot more than Diane Webster about what happened to Madeleine.

Agreed, but we were discussing Diane Webster, not the rest of the group. In my opinion, they're all as bad as one another. If they were speaking the truth, all the children were left in a dangerous situation and all of the adults including Diane Webster, didn't give a stuff about their welfare.

AnnaEsse wrote:

duncanmac wrote:ROB the only casualty doctor within the group and the missing hour he claims to have been tendering to his sick child, holds the answer to what happened IMHO

I think he may be the key.

Me too. I've always thought he was the weakest link. He's the one missing in the photo on the court steps isn't he? I think he has suffered the most since all of this started. Wasn't there rumours he had some kind of breakdown?

duncanmac wrote:Attending to a sick child, yes maybe, but I am not convinced it was his own

Hi duncanmac,

There was a rumour a long time ago that O'Brien was called to 5a to perform a tracheotomy on Madeleieine which failed. I stress ONLY A RUMOUR because some of these threads become facts without any evidence .

kathybelle wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

kathybelle wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

kathybelle wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

I believe Diane Webster said that most of the time she did her own thing on that holiday, rather than join in with the others all the time in the day. I don't think they "took a granny on holiday." I think she was there as another member of a group of people going on holiday together. When I go on holiday with my daughter and her family I am not a granny being taken on holiday. We go as a family and we go out in the evening as a family. Why should it be assumed that Diane, as the mother of Fiona, grandmother to Fiona's children, was there as a babysitter? It was surely her holiday too.

Hi AnnaEsse

I can see your point, regarding Diane Webster, going on holiday with this group, but not to babysit. However if my daughter and her husband had children and they asked me to go on holiday with them, but not as a babysitter, I would freak out, if they said we were all going out for the evening, but they wouldn't be taking their children with them. They would be leaving their children unsupervised, but they would be taking a baby monitor with them.

I agree it was Diane Webster's holiday, but if her daughter and son-in-law, weren't prepared to have their children looked after by a baby sitter, or in the creche, I feel she should have refused to go with them. Someone should have been with these children and the children of the rest of the group, including the McCann children.

Always assuming this is what really happened, because Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida, stated in his report to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, that the whole group lied from the beginning of the investigation.

Why should it have been her responsibility more than that of the parents? Why should she refuse to go? The Payne children were the responsibility of their parents.

I know the children were the responsibility of their parents, but if they weren't prepared to take responsibility for their childrens welfare, then Diane Webster should have.

I don't know how Diane Webster, could wine and dine with her daughter and son-in-law, knowing the situation her grandchildren were being left in.

I don't know how any of them could have wined and dined knowing that all of the children were on their own. I still don't think she's the weakest link, though. The ones who left the table, especially Russell O'Brien and Matthew Oldfield probably know a lot more than Diane Webster about what happened to Madeleine.

Agreed, but we were discussing Diane Webster, not the rest of the group. In my opinion, they're all as bad as one another. If they were speaking the truth, all the children were left in a dangerous situation and all of the adults including Diane Webster, didn't give a stuff about their welfare.

Yes, DW as possibly the weakest link in the chain of events that led to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Whether or not she had taken the responsibility that her daughter shirked and been babysitter for her grandchildren doesn't make her, in my opinion, the weakest link in the chain that holds together that "badly told story."

Have I got this wrong - I thought Marxman`s point was that DW is probably the easiest link to snap if or when she is interviewed by Scotland Yard.

I can imagine a situation where DW was pressurised by a party of doctors and other professionals that they knew best `after all we`re doctors aren`t we`. Even if she thought it unwise to leave children alone, she would probably have been put in her place by a gang of 8 professionals against 1 member of the older generation - sort of "keep out mother, we know what we`re doing".

Even if she has since become wise to the goings-on, she wouldn`t want to be the one to dob them all in. But I`m sure an experienced police interviewer could glean tons more via DW.

Oldartform wrote:Have I got this wrong - I thought Marxman`s point was that DW is probably the easiest link to snap if or when she is interviewed by Scotland Yard.

I can imagine a situation where DW was pressurised by a party of doctors and other professionals that they knew best `after all we`re doctors aren`t we`. Even if she thought it unwise to leave children alone, she would probably have been put in her place by a gang of 8 professionals against 1 member of the older generation - sort of "keep out mother, we know what we`re doing".

Even if she has since become wise to the goings-on, she wouldn`t want to be the one to dob them all in. But I`m sure an experienced police interviewer could glean tons more via DW.

Wasn't she interviewed by Leicester Police with the others in April 2008? I think she would be savvy enough not to criticise the McCanns or repeat anything she knew. The McCanns never really mixed with the others, the Paynes had lunch every day in their Apartment with the O'Briens and Oldfields. They also never went to the Paradiso with the rest of the group , again with the children, for tea. It really wasn't much of a holiday for the McCann children, they hardly saw their Parents, an hour in the morning, hour lunchtime (mandatory) and a couple of hours every evening.

Oldartform wrote:Have I got this wrong - I thought Marxman`s point was that DW is probably the easiest link to snap if or when she is interviewed by Scotland Yard.

I can imagine a situation where DW was pressurised by a party of doctors and other professionals that they knew best `after all we`re doctors aren`t we`. Even if she thought it unwise to leave children alone, she would probably have been put in her place by a gang of 8 professionals against 1 member of the older generation - sort of "keep out mother, we know what we`re doing".

Even if she has since become wise to the goings-on, she wouldn`t want to be the one to dob them all in. But I`m sure an experienced police interviewer could glean tons more via DW.

Thankyou Oldartform, that was indeed the point
of my post. A 'weak link' being the link which should
receive the post pressure in order to break the chain
that holds the mystery together. Others within the
tapas group may know more, or be involved, but this
would make their link more resistant to pressure.
Therefore, IMO, DW if questioned under the right
conditions and with expert investigators asking
incisive and probing questions may start a chain
reaction which may break the bond of professionals.

They should have all been made arguidos, questioned at the same time and then someone would have cracked,not knowing what the others were saying.
Instead we had only two arguidos, questioned separately and one the day after the other, after they had spent the night together.
Baffles me how LP allowed this if it was a joint investigation

I think Leicester Police were only there to act as translators , they didn't have any powers as such and IMO were so pro

McCann anyway that the PJ would not have relied on them to be impartial. The email from Gerry to Stuart Prior " Hi Stu"

and Rachel Mapilly's e-mail asking what he thought of the recon and "Stu's" reply that "it would not serve any useful purpose" says it all.

If you read the questions put to the Tapas group at the LP Station interviews you will cringe at the inanity of them.

Know body forced DW to go out to dinner every night, she knew the kids were being left alone, I wouldn't off gone and left my gran kids alone, a tiny baby could off choked and the older one could off got out off bed , surly ALL off them would off thought that could happen BUT did DW go out every night with them, we don't know we know the oldfields took it In turns to stay in so did tanner and o'brien, I think it was only the Thursday they all went out together, THAT night was DIFFERENT.

kitti wrote:Know body forced DW to go out to dinner every night, she knew the kids were being left alone, I wouldn't off gone and left my gran kids alone, a tiny baby could off choked and the older one could off got out off bed , surly ALL off them would off thought that could happen BUT did DW go out every night with them, we don't know we know the oldfields took it In turns to stay in so did tanner and o'brien, I think it was only the Thursday they all went out together, THAT night was DIFFERENT.

I think the fact that the Paynes had working baby monitors made them feel secure , they had used a monitor on their other holiday with Mark Warner so presumably would have advised the McCanns. When you think about it kitti the McCanns arrived very ill prepared, no buggy, no baby monitor....but a tennis bag and trainers are essential.

kitti wrote:Know body forced DW to go out to dinner every night, she knew the kids were being left alone, I wouldn't off gone and left my gran kids alone, a tiny baby could off choked and the older one could off got out off bed , surly ALL off them would off thought that could happen BUT did DW go out every night with them, we don't know we know the oldfields took it In turns to stay in so did tanner and o'brien, I think it was only the Thursday they all went out together, THAT night was DIFFERENT.

I think she did go every night :-

"4078 ”Okay, and were there any days where you didn’t go to the Tapas for tea on the holiday week, apart from the first night?”
Reply ”For our evening meal you mean?”
4078 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”No it was every night, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.”

But she had her own BRAIN, she wasn't forced to go out to dinner....the fact they used a baby monitor doesn't or wouldn't make me feel secure about leaving a baby and or an older child and besides, they had plenty to drink on those nights and how could that not cloud their judgement and I don't understand why she slept on The settee when the baby's cot could off been taken into the parents bedroom. And their was a perfectly good bed to sleep in, it wasn't as if she was sleeping In the SAME bed as the three year old.


When I went to Spain with my friend her child was two and we slept in the same room together, didn't bother me, what's two weeks off having broken sleep, nothing....me thinks DW was as selfish as the ret off them.

I don't know how Diane Webster, could wine and dine with her daughter and son-in-law, knowing the situation her grandchildren were being left in.

My thoughts exactly! GOBSMACKED
My daughter lives on the Algarve, lives in an apartment with a pub downstairs, could not for the life of me imagine her leaving her baby upstairs to have a drink downstairs, my grandchild is four years old and has NEVER been left alone not even for a second to pop down to store next to the pub beneath, he goes with us or we wait for him to wake if he is sleeping - cannot fathom how ALL adults left BABIES alone AT ALL!!! grrrrrrr!

I cant believe DW or any of the tapas would leave their babies night after night...& i dont believe they did...except when the possible accident happened & the alibi was needed,then the risk was outweighed by the consequences,they are all weakest links as their jackanorys have more holes than a sieve in them.

kitti wrote:But she had her own BRAIN, she wasn't forced to go out to dinner....the fact they used a baby monitor doesn't or wouldn't make me feel secure about leaving a baby and or an older child and besides, they had plenty to drink on those nights and how could that not cloud their judgement and I don't understand why she slept on The settee when the baby's cot could off been taken into the parents bedroom. And their was a perfectly good bed to sleep in, it wasn't as if she was sleeping In the SAME bed as the three year old.


When I went to Spain with my friend her child was two and we slept in the same room together, didn't bother me, what's two weeks off having broken sleep, nothing....me thinks DW was as selfish as the ret off them.

I agree with you Kitty. Don`t understand why she couldn`t go in L...`s room as there were two single beds in there as well as L....`s cot :-

"Reply ”We were the only ones on the first floor, we had the, we had a bigger apartment than the others, err which is what Dave, Dave had originally err asked for anyway because he wanted to have err a separate bedroom I think for the girls, although they were in cots, and err I, I just slept on the err there was a folding bed in the liv, the sort of living room area, and that’s where I slept, although there were two beds in one of the bedrooms, that’s also where Lily was sleeping in her cot so I didn’t err didn’t want to sleep in the same room as her.”
4078 ”Okay.”

We don`t know whether she did express an opinion about leaving her grandchildren alone, but she was obviously persuaded it would be ok - all depends on her strength of personality I suppose. Personally there`s no way I would intrude on a party of 8 of my daughter/son`s friends - they just couldn`t be themselves with `mother` there. And I would feel embarrassed and a right gooseberry. Of course its entirely different if its a mixed generation party.

Dianne's statement is confusing. She first says that the "girls" had their own room, but then goes on to say that she didn't want to sleep in the room with Lily. Why no mention of the younger daughter, Scarlett? Maybe Scarlett's cot was in the room with the parents? I would think that Dianne would rather not sleep in a room with a baby than a toddler. Would Lily have been sleeping in a cot at 2 1/2 years old? I am pretty sure that both of my children moved out of cots before reaching 2 years of age.

I don't think 2 1/2 year old would be in a cot, my son went to hsopital aged 2 and even there he wasn't in a cot.

I thought Fiona;s Mother slept on the sofa in the Lounge, probably not to disturb the children late at night.

How does walking Into a bedroom disturb a child....all you got to do Is walk through the door pull the duvet down and get Into bed....that's it..

kitti wrote:How does walking Into a bedroom disturb a child....all you got to do Is walk through the door pull the duvet down and get Into bed....that's it..

I'm not sure there was a third bed in the children's room Kitti, and after a few drinks would Diane be as quiet as a mouse ?

According to DW there were two cots in addition to any beds that were already in the room. I believe that Lily was 2 years and 9 months at the time of the trip, can anyone confirm? I find it very hard to believe that a child that age would be sleeping in a cot.

Also, wasn't there an issue with the McCanns getting an extra cot delivered to their room which they then let the Paynes use?

I wonder why they needed three cots and I wonder if the two beds were already occupied by 'other' children.

jinvta wrote:According to DW there were two cots in addition to any beds that were already in the room. I believe that Lily was 2 years and 9 months at the time of the trip, can anyone confirm? I find it very hard to believe that a child that age would be sleeping in a cot.

Also, wasn't there an issue with the McCanns getting an extra cot delivered to their room which they then let the Paynes use?

”If you can remember talking to anybody to the time you went to bed.”
Reply ”Mm, err I think one of the things that I remember is there was difficulties you know we was trying to get the cots situation sorted out and I can’t remember, I mean I’ve thought about this when, you know because I went into Kate and Gerry’s apartment right, you know from the beginning to sort out one of the cots because I don’t think they, you know, there was a spare one they, they’d had or just to work that out, but err you know during, during the day as I say I, its such a long time ago and all I can remember is we were you know excited, we were going into one person’s apartment, having a chat and seeing where they’d been, err you know but I must admit I can’t give any detail really err regarding exactly who we chatted to or what, the rest of that day. Err you know we, you know we all went err to Millennium, again I, whether it was the Saturday night or the Sunday night I’m not, I can’t recall.”



That is what Payne says about the cots. I don't have a degree in gibberish, but it would seem that there was a spare one in 5a. He says both his children were in cots, one in their own bedroom and one in the second bedroom, with DW on the sofa bed in the lounge.

My personal experience of the cots as pictured in apartment 5a is that a child of walking age would find them extremely uncomfortable and I would not use them once the child can stand up. They are commonly known as travel cots so they fold down very easily by applying pressure to the tops of the bars. That is what I experienced with my own children. If they stood up in it and tried to climb out the pressure being applied could start to collapse the cot. Also, the mattresses are wafer thin and all in all they are an uncomfortable long term solution and guaranteed to give you sleepless nights. They are also quite a bit shorter in lenght than a standard cot.

Looking at the set up in 5a, the solution most people I know would have adopted is to push the cots to the open side of the bed and place the children in the beds. The cot would act as a barrier to prevent the child falling out and they are enclosed on the other side by a wall. The downside to this set up, if you are one of the Tapas group, is that the child can easily get out of bed and walk around the apartment.

That is what Payne says about the cots. I don't have a degree in gibberish, but it would seem that there was a spare one in 5a. He says both his children were in cots, one in their own bedroom and one in the second bedroom, with DW on the sofa bed in the lounge."


Thanks mossman, I don't know how to find stuff but have a good memory.