In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

**LJC** Fri 22 Aug - 23:52

Just reading up about the dogs again and stumbled across this heading.

In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Then I started to wonder where did Martin Grimes train his dogs? It made me curious so I started to try to find out but came up against a brick wall as the information relating to Grimes training methods seemed clouded.

Sorry if it has been discussed before by the way but if it was I missed it.

**Lioned** Sat 23 Aug - 0:12

How else can a cadaver dog be trained if they dont get a sniff of s dead body ?

**tanszi** Sat 23 Aug - 0:22

they train them using human bone from archaeological sources and pork in various stages of decomposition as it is the nearest to human. they also do other things which incorporate using the odour of cadaver don't know how they get that but seems they do and they are also trained in this. lots of information on this subject for anyone to google.

**Lioned** Sat 23 Aug - 8:43

Thanks

weissnicht Sat 23 Aug - 9:09

Lioned wrote:How else can a cadaver dog be trained if they dont get a sniff of s dead body ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_farm

**AnnaEsse** Sat 23 Aug - 11:17

I thought that Eddie had been trained at the "Body Farm," in the USA.

**fred** Sat 23 Aug - 11:57

AnnaEsse wrote:I thought that Eddie had been trained at the "Body Farm," in the USA.

That what I thought too.

**LJC** Sat 23 Aug - 12:43

fred wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:I thought that Eddie had been trained at the "Body Farm," in the USA.

That what I thought too.

I don't think this has ever been confirmed.

**LJC** Sat 23 Aug - 12:46

tanszi wrote:they train them using human bone from archaeological sources and pork in various stages of decomposition as it is the nearest to human. they also do other things which incorporate using the odour of cadaver don't know how they get that but seems they do and they are also trained in this. lots of information on this subject for anyone to google.

That would explain why the dogs evidence on its own would not be sufficient, for without a body a Defence lawyer would have a field day in Court.

kathybelle Sat 23 Aug - 13:29

LJC wrote:
tanszi wrote:they train them using human bone from archaeological sources and pork in various stages of decomposition as it is the nearest to human. they also do other things which incorporate using the odour of cadaver don't know how they get that but seems they do and they are also trained in this. lots of information on this subject for anyone to google.

That would explain why the dogs evidence on its own would not be sufficient, for without a body a Defence lawyer would have a field day in Court.

You mean you hope that the dogs evidence on its own would not be sufficient, without a body. You haven't a clue what would have happened if this case had reached court.
Others more knowledgeable than you or I, obviously thought that the cadaver evidence would help convict the McCanns, otherwise they wouldn't have 'lost' the cadaver evidence, along with the blood samples that were found in the McCanns apartment.

Eddie and Keela have been proved to be so reliable, that they have been used in other parts of the world and have been as successful in those countries, as they have been in the UK.

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/south-yorkshire-police-killed-eddie-and.html

http://www.globalrescueservices.org.uk/12/cadaver_dog_team.html

LJC, if you are having sleepless nights, worrying that the McCanns days of freedom are numbered, it's highly unlikely that this will happen. The McCanns have been lucky enough to have the support of the previous and present British Governments and at least one person within the Portuguese Government. They have always had the support of high ranking police officers and other high profile people and thanks to Rupert Murdoch and other newspaper group owners the support of their tacky tabloids.

Unfortunately for Madeleine, she has not had the support her parents have had and are still getting, from the ones with clout. None of these people have ever uttered one word of sympathy for the plight Madeleine was placed in by her parents. As far as these people are concerned, Kate and Gerry McCann are the victims.

We the Madeleine supporters, care what happened to Madeleine, but unfortunately this is as far as we can go.

Guest Sat 23 Aug - 15:45

If the McCanns really believed the dogs' evidence to be worthless, then why would they go to such elaborate lengths to try and explain it away?

**LJC** Sat 23 Aug - 16:08

Kathybelle wrote:You mean you hope that the dogs evidence on its own would not be sufficient, without a body.

No, I mean the opposite. I do not think the McCanns are innocent of involvement, the opposite in fact. Sadly I feel that the dog's indications cannot establish guilt. They simply flag up areas of interest. If Martin Grimes did not train his dogs in America or have them trained by Americans on his behalf, then it is a potentially very grey area. The Americans have made far more progress in training cadaver dogs because they can use body parts in their training and their methods are extremely vigorous. So sadly, very sadly, I feel, and no I'm not an expert which is why I ask questions, but I feel this is the reason why so many other experts have stated they do not feel the dogs indications would, on their own, satisfy a Court.

**LJC** Sat 23 Aug - 16:18

Iris wrote:If the McCanns really believed the dogs' evidence to be worthless, then why would they go to such elaborate lengths to try and explain it away?

Iris, thanks for making that point because it has been bothering me too. And it is one of the reasons why I feel they are guilty. I doubt the McCanns did think the dogs' evidence worthless and I think they fell into a trap over it by saying more than they should have, which I felt was a bit incriminating on their part. Oh, and I'm not saying the dogs' evidence is worthless either, just that I've read it would never be used as evidence unless backed up by positive forensic evidence such as a body because of regulations on how British cadaver dogs are trained. The McCanns let themselves down badly by not considering it from another angle and went on and on instead of why they thought certain odours were found here and there and just carried on incriminating themselves further in my eyes.

**wjk** Sat 23 Aug - 16:36

LJC wrote:
Iris wrote:If the McCanns really believed the dogs' evidence to be worthless, then why would they go to such elaborate lengths to try and explain it away?

Iris, thanks for making that point because it has been bothering me too. And it is one of the reasons why I feel they are guilty. I doubt the McCanns did think the dogs' evidence worthless and I think they fell into a trap over it by saying more than they should have, which I felt was a bit incriminating on their part. Oh, and I'm not saying the dogs' evidence is worthless either, just that I've read it would never be used as evidence unless backed up by positive forensic evidence such as a body because of regulations on how British cadaver dogs are trained. The McCanns let themselves down badly by not considering it from another angle and went on and on instead of why they thought certain odours were found here and there and just carried on incriminating themselves further in my eyes.

And lets not forget GM tried to bring up the dogs in the court case against Snr Amaral and was swiftly told to shut up by the Judge!
They are/were worried about those pesky dogs, imo.

**LJC** Sat 23 Aug - 19:41

wjk wrote:
LJC wrote:
Iris wrote:If the McCanns really believed the dogs' evidence to be worthless, then why would they go to such elaborate lengths to try and explain it away?

Iris, thanks for making that point because it has been bothering me too. And it is one of the reasons why I feel they are guilty. I doubt the McCanns did think the dogs' evidence worthless and I think they fell into a trap over it by saying more than they should have, which I felt was a bit incriminating on their part. Oh, and I'm not saying the dogs' evidence is worthless either, just that I've read it would never be used as evidence unless backed up by positive forensic evidence such as a body because of regulations on how British cadaver dogs are trained. The McCanns let themselves down badly by not considering it from another angle and went on and on instead of why they thought certain odours were found here and there and just carried on incriminating themselves further in my eyes.

And lets not forget GM tried to bring up the dogs in the court case against Snr Amaral and was swiftly told to shut up by the Judge!
They are/were worried about those pesky dogs, imo.

Yes that's correct, he did didn't he. I don't do conspiracy theories but I do think, if you can call it a conspiracy, that there is a conspiracy by some who believe them guilty to allow the McCanns to comment whenever they want to - for the McCanns often fall into traps of their own making. If what I read is correct then they didn't need to pass any comment about the dogs findings; their Defence team would have delved into the regulations surrounding British cadaver dog training and would have had it up their sleeve if it was considered as a form of defence potentially in the future I think. There are potential strengths and weaknesses in every Court case and expert witnesses go head to head with each other over such technicalities and I feel this is one such area that would have been heavily contested in any future Court proceedings anyway; their defence team must despair of them at times given some of the stupid things they have come out with.

**tanszi** Sat 23 Aug - 22:41

I had forgotten that the American do have body farms. I wonder if they have them in the uk. even if the dogs were trained on the American body farms for a while I doubt that would be made public knowledge.

**fuzeta** Sun 24 Aug - 9:10

whether it could be used in court or not is not the point. The fact is cadaver was detected in the apartment, on Kate's clothes and the hire car. The dogs had not been wrong before or been wrong since.

I found this chapter 16 Truth of the lie
"The dogs’ CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI’s “Body Farm,” the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies"

This is a good chapter on the dogs

**fuzeta** Sun 24 Aug - 9:25

ignore this can't seem to delete it

**fuzeta** Sun 24 Aug - 9:28

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

Plus this on the Maddiecasefiles In this article Martin Grimes gives his profile and states the dogs were trained using human remains in the USA

kathybelle Sun 24 Aug - 10:31

fuzeta wrote:whether it could be used in court or not is not the point. The fact is cadaver was detected in the apartment, on Kate's clothes and the hire car. The dogs had not been wrong before or been wrong since.

I found this chapter 16 Truth of the lie
"The dogs’ CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI’s “Body Farm,” the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies"

This is a good chapter on the dogs

Good post Fuzeta

Eddie and Keela, were without a shadow of a doubt, brilliant little sniffer dogs.

No one knows whether the cadaver evidence would have been accepted in court, because thanks to the certain members of the British and Portuguese Governments intervening in the PJ investigation, the McCanns were never prosecuted.

If the PJ had been allowed to investigate the case as it should have been investigated, the case couldn't have failed to have reached the conclusion that the McCanns should be prosecuted.

If the report put forward by the then Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida, was not accepted by the Portuguese equivalent of the CPS, then the McCanns could have been charged with abandoning their 3 children leaving them exposed to danger and because Madeleine disappeared, because of that factor, the McCanns would have faced a jail sentence.

In the link below, the Portuguese law, states that it is a criminal offence to leave a child under 12 alone. The Portuguese Penal Code, article 138 is also in the same link.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/mccanns-blog-mccanns-fund-mccanns-alert.html

While it's highly likely that Madeleine disappeared under other circumstances and the McCanns were fully involved with whatever happened to her before she disappeared and were involved in her removal from the apartment, the McCanns have admitted leaving Madeleine and the twins unsupervised, in their unlocked apartment. They along with their friends, have made and signed statements stating that is what happened.

Many people think that the PJ were looking for something more substantial, than charging the McCanns with offences under the Portuguese Penal Code. I don't believe that was the reason, I believe the only reason the McCanns were not brought to justice, is because of intervention by certain people within the Portuguese and British Governments. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm only saying what I believe.

Fuzeta, I'm sorry for moving away from the subject of the sniffer dogs.

kathybelle Sun 24 Aug - 10:32

fuzeta wrote:http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

Plus this on the Maddiecasefiles In this article Martin Grimes gives his profile and states the dogs were trained using human remains in the USA

Thank you for the link Fuzeta In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs. Icon_flower

**AnnaEsse** Sun 24 Aug - 11:43

fuzeta wrote:http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

Plus this on the Maddiecasefiles In this article Martin Grimes gives his profile and states the dogs were trained using human remains in the USA

Thanks fuzeta. In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs. Icon_flower

**fuzeta** Sun 24 Aug - 12:54

You are welcome. Just pleased I found it.

**tanszi** Sun 24 Aug - 14:24

So am I. thanks fuzeta. Excellent find.

kathybelle Sun 24 Aug - 15:11

LJC wrote:
Kathybelle wrote:You mean you hope that the dogs evidence on its own would not be sufficient, without a body.

No, I mean the opposite. I do not think the McCanns are innocent of involvement, the opposite in fact. Sadly I feel that the dog's indications cannot establish guilt. They simply flag up areas of interest. If Martin Grimes did not train his dogs in America or have them trained by Americans on his behalf, then it is a potentially very grey area. The Americans have made far more progress in training cadaver dogs because they can use body parts in their training and their methods are extremely vigorous. So sadly, very sadly, I feel, and no I'm not an expert which is why I ask questions, but I feel this is the reason why so many other experts have stated they do not feel the dogs indications would, on their own, satisfy a Court.

If cadaver evidence was not admissible in a court of law, the police would not waste time and money training the dogs.

Looking at this from another angle, Kate McCann's mother Susan Healy, believed that cadaver evidence was on the clothing of her daughter and 'cuddle cat', because she told the media that her daughter had come in contact with 6 deceased persons, the week before she went on holiday. She also stated that Madeleine's soft toy had cadaver scent on it, because her daughter took the soft toy to work with her.

To my knowledge Susan Healy never explained why the cadaver scent was on Madeleine's clothing and why there was none on the clothing of the twins or their father.

Kate McCann never disputed her mother's media statement regarding the cadaver scent, but I wouldn't be surprised if she had a private word with her mother, because Susan Healy gave another media interview and in that interview she stated that the evidence had been planted.

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In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

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Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.

Re: In Britain, it is outlawed as illegal and unethical to use human body parts to train cadaver dogs.