Negotiations, what negotiations?

In the wake of Douglas Carswell defecting to UKIP we are being told of negotiations going on to make the EU more acceptable to the British people. Cameron is hinting at sweeping changes while Carswell says he's leaving partly because Cameron is aiming at the minimum possible, and is playing a double game anyway. Well that isn't anything new what politician isn't?

Having said that where are these negotiations? The last I heard on the matter was Angela Merkel. She made a speech (standing next to Cameron) taking a long time to say that there would be no effective change. That the EU would not change to suit us in even the smallest degree. On top of which the EU is dominated by countries whose only reason for being part of the EU is for what they get out of it. 11 members including us are nett contributors while 16 are nett recipients. They are not going to tamely allow Britain to change the rules, and give them less.

Then Mr. Carswell talks of the cosy little Westminster clique. He goes on to suggest a novel form of government with the people in charge. The Greeks have a name for that system of government. It's called democracy. Messrs Cameron Milliband, and Clegg, should look that word up and memorise it's meaning

Good morning Katertaif, I saw Cameron on the news last night talking about the Carswell situation, what a pompous ass Cameron is.  Will he never wake up and smell the coffee? I doubt it.  The writing is on the wall dear David, time you started reading it.    All the usual nonsense about only he will give us a referendum, the one that will never happen.

The figures for immigration from March to August were 343,000 so we would be looking at around 3/4 million people coming to the UK every year.  That is the figures they tell us anyway and we know how they lie.  Plus the ones that come in illegally.   We cannot sustain this level of immigration, it is ridiculous, the country will be on it's knees very soon.
For God's sake it has to stop.  All we hear from Cameron is that the level of immigration is too high and needs looking at.
Just do something you useless, stupid man.

fuzeta wrote:Good morning Katertaif, I saw Cameron on the news last night talking about the Carswell situation, what a pompous ass Cameron is.  Will he never wake up and smell the coffee? I doubt it.  The writing is on the wall dear David, time you started reading it.    All the usual nonsense about only he will give us a referendum, the one that will never happen.

The figures for immigration from March to August were 343,000 so we would be looking at around 3/4 million people coming to the UK every year.  That is the figures they tell us anyway and we know how they lie.  Plus the ones that come in illegally.   We cannot sustain this level of immigration, it is ridiculous, the country will be on it's knees very soon.
For God's sake it has to stop.  All we hear from Cameron is that the level of immigration is too high and needs looking at.
Just do something you useless, stupid man.

Good morning Fuzeta

I thought the same as you, until I saw the news this morning. The present UKIP candidate elect has said he will not step aside for Carswell. So we have to ask the question, is this numbskull more interested in personal gain ahead of his country? Obviously Carswell is the best man for the job being the incumbent already. A blind man could see that. Unless coco the clown can be silenced in the next 24 to 48 hours, the least he will do is split the vote. he will take votes off Carswell, and vice versa. The result could be that neither of them get in. or at least get in but damaged. Kilroy Silk came close to finishing UKIP off because they wouldn't let him be leader so he took the huff. it's taken them a while to get back to where they have, We don't need any more in fighting and I agree, the two main concerns we face today are unchecked immigration. The Golden Goose is being killed off ever faster. and with it our standard of living is being eroded. The second being the EU. They are related, but separate.

I still want to know what negotiations have taken place regarding our membership of the budding United States of Europe. not that they will get anywhere. They are however all sufficiently deceitful as to claim certain concessions. get a referendum out of the way, Irish style if necessary, then go back to business as usual.

If I remember rightly Katertaif, Cameron said he would hold a referendum if we did not get the concessions, whatever they may be? Insignificant stuff blown up to look good I suppose. Is he now going to hold a referendum even if we do get the concessions? I get confused with him.

fuzeta wrote:If I remember rightly Katertaif, Cameron said he would hold a referendum if we did not get the concessions, whatever they may be? Insignificant stuff blown up to look good I suppose.   Is he now going to hold a referendum even if we do get the concessions? I get confused with him.

Good morning fuzeta.

I think Cameron gets confused with Cameron these days. there will be no concessions no matter how trivial, but I believe Barrosso and his like are quite capable of cobbling up something designed to look as if we have an equitable deal. The truth is they don't particularly care whether we are in their club or not, as long as we keep shelling out the money, and on top of that provide work for their population to send home. When the Golden Goose is finally buried they would be only too happy to send us packing.

It will not come to that I believe. other events in Britain and Europe will overshadow this. Scottish Independence, the EU and even immigration will be reduced to side shows. The signs are all there for anyone to see.

Cameron will never get any real concessions from the EU, I suspect most of them would be glad to see the back of us...it's only our contributions they are interested in.

If UKIP actually gets some MPs then they will split the vote and labour could get back in. Imo that would be disastrous. We already had them for 15 years and look what they did for us....gave away all our rights and opened the flood gates to thousands of immigrants. If they get back in it will start all over again and then some. I see Ed Balls is talking about taking away the benefits cap and raising it...what is wrong with him?

Until recently, much as I hate the EU, I didn't think it would be in our interest to actually leave...just lately I'm beginning to wonder. Just think what we could do with all the money we contribute at present and we could set our own laws without interference. The EU's latest brain wave is to prevent sales of vacuum cleaners over a certain wattage....is that really all they've got to think about. How about concerning themselves with the hundreds of desperate people arriving in Italy, France and the UK.

I'm not sure what Kaitertaif is referring to by other things overshadowing events in Europe and the UK.... but I'm wondering if he/she is referring to Russia and the Ukraine. What happens when Putin decides he's not satisfied with just invading Ukraine...how long before he sets his sights on other eastern European countries. Don't even want to think about it.

Angelina, although I cannot speak for Katertaif I read it that he means more things than Russia and the Ukraine.  I am also afraid that a vote for UKIP would mean the disastrous labour party getting in. It is a real dilemma, I would like to vote for them because we are desperately in need of change and how else can we show that we really are sick and tired of the usual, who are not listening to us.   We made a big enough noise about it re the European elections and still they take no notice and just carry on as usual.  What can we do about it, I really don't know.

fuzeta wrote:Angelina I believe Katertaif means more things than Russia and the Ukraine.  I am also afraid that a vote for UKIP would mean the disastrous labour party getting in. It is a real dilemma, I would like to vote for them because we are desperately in need of change and how else can we show that we really are sick and tired of the usual, who are not listening to us.   We made a big enough noise about it re the European elections and still they take no notice and just carry on as usual.  What can we do about it, I really don't know.

I agree wholeheartedly with you both, and to get a dozen or so UKIP MP's, will probably mean a Labour government. What is the alternative? If we are ever going to get a UKIP voice in Parliament, which will be the only way the EU, and immigration questions will be addressed, we have no choice. Short term pain for medium term gain. The only hope we have is that labour would hold off on their previous disastrous policies until they can be voted out again with more UKIP MP's getting in until they can form a government or a coalition. Surely no one could contemplate Labour having another 13 years. I doubt the nation could survive that.

Hopefully though more Conservatives will cross the floor and even some labour MP's may see an eye on the main chance. Some Liberals may come over, they are notorious in looking for gravy trains to jump aboard. It only remains now to persuade the selected UKIP contender in Clacton that Carswell is a much better bet.

IT IS BEING SAID THAT OTHER TORY MPS MIGHT DEFECT,I THINK THE NUMBER 20 HAS COME UP.

fuzeta wrote:Good morning Katertaif, I saw Cameron on the news last night talking about the Carswell situation, what a pompous ass Cameron is.  Will he never wake up and smell the coffee? I doubt it.  The writing is on the wall dear David, time you started reading it.    All the usual nonsense about only he will give us a referendum, the one that will never happen.

The figures for immigration from March to August were 343,000 so we would be looking at around 3/4 million people coming to the UK every year.  That is the figures they tell us anyway and we know how they lie.  Plus the ones that come in illegally.   We cannot sustain this level of immigration, it is ridiculous, the country will be on it's knees very soon.
For God's sake it has to stop.  All we hear from Cameron is that the level of immigration is too high and needs looking at.
Just do something you useless, stupid man.

Good morning Fuzeta

I think your last sentence says it all about him. After yet another of the magnificently misnamed Cobra meetings about IS Cameron is doing nothing. The Reuters report says he made his decision with an eye on a war weary populace. So the General Election result of next year is of far greater importance than the continued expansion of the terror group IS and considerably more important than the forcing of girls/women into brothels by these scum. Nice to know what his priorities are.

Hi Fuzeta, I have come to place where I now think all people in power are like puppets ,chosen from one or another parties ,doesn't matter which one ,all do as they have to and it goes higher than what we would think . I have had this idea for a long time ,but it just seems to get stronger as we see people come and go ,all eventually dance to same tune ,what is the answer we ask ? well I wish we knew that one .joyce1938

joyce1938 wrote:Hi Fuzeta, I have come to place where I now think all people in power are like puppets ,chosen from one or another parties ,doesn't matter which one ,all do as they have to and it goes higher than what we would think . I have had this idea for a long time ,but it just seems to get stronger as we see people come and go ,all eventually dance to same tune ,what is the answer we ask ? well I wish we knew that one .joyce1938

Yet another one has joined the ranks of UKIP and at the worst possible time for the Conservatives. Also on the eve of a party conference we have a Minister having to resign for apparently sending pictures of himself via the internet. What kind of mind have they got? Weird or what? Meanwhile these people set themselves up to be better than us. Something they most certainly are not.

I voted lifelong Tory, until they kicked Maggie out the way they did. No matter what people thought of her and whether she was then a liability or not, she deserved better treatment than that. I did support UKIP in the early days even going on the campaign trail, until Kilroy Silk started sulking. I voted for them in the European election, and God willing I will next year but I am worried that in a short space of time they will become part and parcel of the present establishment.

People are absolutely sick of politicians and their antics which is why the low voter turn out. I can only hope that Farage keeps the promises he used to make, and any politician caught out in any form of scandal is dealt with appropriately and immediately. Not given the chance to refuse to resign as they are now with the PM's full confidence Don't Y' know. Sacked, and if the mechanism doesn't exist to sack them from MP's office, call a by election, and see what the people think. That and only that will restore what used to be called the mother of Parliaments, and is now a collection of grubby self seeking and grasping nonentities.

IF THERE WANT YOU TO VOTE FOR THEM,THERE SHOULD COME TO DOORS

IT MIGHT BE LABOUR WHO NEGIATE WITH EU IF A RECENT POLL BY LORD ASHCROFT IS ANYTHING TO GO BY.

Badboy wrote:IF THERE WANT YOU TO VOTE FOR THEM,THERE SHOULD COME TO DOORS

They used to Badboy and they still do it to a degree. but the face of - certainly British politics has changed. The last thing anyone expects from a politician is honesty. So why bother going round the doors telling lies, when you can hire a hall and tell the same lies just the once. Much more effective.

Even now, in the wake of the Scottish referendum have they woken up? No chance! Now all they want to know about is English MP's voting on English matters. Union, what Union is that then?

Brussels has just graphically shown how much faith we can put in any negotiations. Arrogance is not the word. The EU must be aware of the upsurge in popularity of UKIP yet they continue to behave as if they, and they alone decide the agenda.

To demand extra money from us at this point with a bye election coming up has almost certainly guaranteed that by the end of it, UKIP will have two MP's. To announce that in effect we are paying for the rebate for France and Germany will only further add fuel to the fire.

The leaders of the EU claim they want us in the club, but I begin to wonder. The further announcement of over a thousand new pettifogging rules; rules on such momentous topics as when can dry Gin be truly called dry, is a gift of votes to UKIP on it's own. The demand for more money could; apart from swelling the ranks of UKIP cause more defections among our own inept and largely redundant politicians.

You have to ask how capable these people are. They must know the situation in Britain regarding our continued membership. Is it bad timing, bad judgement, or like our own political masters, have they little or no idea?

katertaif wrote:Brussels has just graphically shown how much faith we can put in any negotiations. Arrogance is not the word. The EU must be aware of the upsurge in popularity of UKIP yet they continue to behave as if they, and they alone decide the agenda.

To demand extra money from us at this point with a bye election coming up has almost certainly guaranteed that by the end of it, UKIP will have two MP's. To announce that in effect we are paying for the rebate for France and Germany will only further add fuel to the fire.

The leaders of the EU claim they want us in the club, but I begin to wonder. The further announcement of over a thousand new pettifogging rules; rules on such momentous topics as when can dry Gin be truly called dry, is a gift of votes to UKIP on it's own. The demand for more money could; apart from swelling the ranks of UKIP cause more defections among our own inept and largely redundant politicians.

You have to ask how capable these people are. They must know the situation in Britain regarding our continued membership. Is it bad timing, bad judgement, or like our own political masters, have they little or no idea?

Farage must be thinking all his birthdays and Christmas pressies have been rolled into one and thrown in his lap.

Very bad timing for the rest of our so-called policitians.

Absolutely Angelina!

I was reading that David Cameron said something like " if they think we are going to pay that by the 1st December they are mistaken"   He did not say we will not pay it.

We pay 55M a day to be a member of the EU, how ridiculous when our NHS is in such a mess.  People being told they can't have this drug or that because it is too expensive. People waiting for months for operations.  Pensioners living on the breadline. Huge cuts in public spending.

I read that Birmingham council are going to get rid of the Lollipop men and women. Penny pinching and leaving children in  danger.   Yet we pay out 55M a day to an organisation that is  ruining us and they still want more.


Some facts and figures additional sums wanted plus who gets rebates :-



Losers Additional sum to pay
Source: Leaked EU Commission document

United Kingdom
£1,676m

Netherlands
£506m

Italy
£268m

Greece
£70m

Cyprus
£33m

Winners Reduction
France
£801m

Germany
£614m

Denmark
£253m

Poland
£249m

Austria
£232m


" UKIP likened the EU to a "thirsty vampire" and said the demand strengthened its case for British withdrawal.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage said the UK already paid £55m a day to be a member of the EU and suggested it would have no option but to pay the supplement.

"To be asked for a whole load more and be given a few days in which to pay it, is pretty outrageous and I think people will be very, very angry," he said."



"

Good evening fuzeta. As you say, Cameron didn't actually say he is not going to pay it. he said he is not going
to pay it on the 1st December. We must remember that if not Cameron himself, then at least one of his advisors is a master at word play.

Why do we have to pay such eye watering sums to what is supposed to be a mutually advantageous trading bloc anyway? Of course we all know what the end result is to be. members of a trading bloc would not need to put in such swingeing amounts. It negates the whole idea of trade. How much trading is needed before the country makes up that amount? Yet Switzerland, which is not a member of this mutually advantageous club, enjoys trade with Europe, and pays in far less that we do, as do others. That is Farage's vision. Trade with by all means, but not be ruled by. We should have taken a leaf out of Switzerland's book many years ago, and said no.

It sounded so good at the time though. Then papers released under the thirty year rule showed conclusively that our leaders, both socialist and conservative, knew full well what the end result was to be, and kept it from us in order to get the result they wanted. Lies by omission are still lies.

Good evening katertaif.  I have to say that it never looked good to me and I did not vote for it.  We were fine and doing well, why mend something that was not broken? These were my thoughts at the time.    

It is a complete mess now, we have been completely taken over and cannot make a move without the rules of the EU coming in to play.  Many countries feel the same but have not the guts to stand up to it.  Cameron does at least have a go but he cannot rely on others standing with him, they just back down.  There lies the problem.

What I found astounding in that list of countries to pay more was that Greece has to pay 70M.  A country on it's knees having to pay and France and Germany getting a rebate!

I was also astounded to read that the black market  was also included in the EU figures when working out what each country would pay, drugs and prostitution apparently !!!   I cannot work that one out.  Are they saying that those that deal in these things pay taxes? !   I can paste the link to the BBC article if wanted. I must be reading it wrong, surely!
Does it mean they are knocking it off the amount or adding it on?

fuzeta wrote:Good evening katertaif.  I have to say that it never looked good to me and I did not vote for it.  We were fine and doing well, why mend something that was not broken? These were my thoughts at the time.    

It is a complete mess now, we have been completely taken over and cannot make a move without the rules of the EU coming in to play.  Many countries feel the same but have not the guts to stand up to it.  Cameron does at least have a go but he cannot rely on others standing with him, they just back down.  There lies the problem.

What I found astounding in that list of countries to pay more was that Greece has to pay 70M.  A country on it's knees having to pay and France and Germany getting a rebate!

I was also astounded to read that the black market  was also included in the EU figures when working out what each country would pay, drugs and prostitution apparently !!!   I cannot work that one out.  Are they saying that those that deal in these things pay taxes? !   I can paste the link to the BBC article if wanted. I must be reading it wrong, surely!
Does it mean they are knocking it off the amount or adding it on?

Unfortunately fuzeta, you are not reading it wrong, at least if you are so is everyone else. Prostitution, and the black market generally are taken into account. Presumably the EU isn't fussed where or how you get your money as long as they get their cut. They'll be inviting the Mafia, and the Union Corse to join them next, not to mention the drug barons in S. America.

Like you I said no at the time. It all sounded just a trifle too idyllic to be true. A life of great beauty as they say.

Greece is, as you say classic. Unable to service the loans they've had, they have had large chunks written off. They are actually still borrowing from the same EU who expects them to pay this £70 million extra.  Germany was being held up as a model of industry literally 3 months ago, and now it is the rest of us who are being held up. It just does not make sense.

I thought Barrosso was bad enough in his arrogance. It seems he was in good company. Whom the Gods would destroy they first make mad would seem very apt here.

EVEN GERMANY IS HAVING ECONOMIC PROBLEMS.

Badboy wrote:EVEN GERMANY IS HAVING ECONOMIC PROBLEMS.

That is very true Badboy they are. I agree with you, it would not make sense to raise the fees of someone struggling; in effect fining them. No more does it make a great deal of sense to raise the fees of someone supposedly doing all right; in effect penalising them.

Putting drugs, prostitution and the rest of the panoply of organised crime into the figures, is to me one of the strangest wheezes of all. Why not invite the Mafia and/or the Union Corse to join the club?