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Madeleine's DNA

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Madeleine's DNA

Post  Autumn on Sat 18 Feb - 17:29

From a Research article 'Why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apartment G5A

They were successful in locating a stain on a pillow case which is believed to be saliva , ( ref SJM/1 ) , this was compared to reference samples of Madeleine’s immediate family and proved to be different .

On 12 October 2007, the Forensic Science Service received a blood spot in a cardboard frame (object JRB/1) from

Leicestershire Constabulary. That object was inside a sealed package.

The DNA profile was the same as that obtained from possible spots of saliva existing on the pillowcase and thus was born a true genetic profile of MM .

The FSS confirmed this by stating ' The results of the DNA profile obtaïned from the pïllowcase is approximately 29 million times more likely if the profïle originates form a natural child of theirs rather than someone unrelated to them. ' .... can't really argue with that .

I’ve no doubt the heel stick sample was necessary in order to provide them with a definite genetic profile to compare to the Rothley sample and that a true profile was assembled as a result.
So if the heel prick sample was compared to a sample found in Rothley ( the pillowcase sample ) and proved conclusively to be from Madeleine but nothing was found in PDL , in real terms this means we still do not know for certain if the child who was in PDL has the same DNA profile or was in fact even the same child.


http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3889-2-appendices-added-q-wants-to-know-why-none-of-madeleine-s-dna-was-found-in-apt-g5a-long

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 18:56

The procedure in the cases of missing persons (particularly those classified as high risk & vulnerable) includes capturing physical evidence which might assist in the identification and recovery of bodies or future enquiries into homicide.

This means obtaining identifying characteristics for reference from objects left behind. This process is not simply collection, in other words investigative effort must be made and recorded to establish as far as possible the link between the recovery and the missing person.

The most likely sources are;

DNA profiling – for this to happen the missing person must be considered the subject.

Why was there nothing in the apartment which would have generated a genetic profile of the victim. Photo’s show she wore two sets of clothing that day and I would also question that even if had they been put through a wash cycle, stains etc. on certain items of clothing would still have had enough biological evidence embedded in the material to generate a genetic profile, that’s not to mention the many other things in the apartment that should have also been present – If an early report is true which actually mentions stained socks being sent to the FSS for analysis, then this would indicate that authorities were trying to find biological evidence to create a genetic profile of Madeleine.

It's truely bewildering that they collected samples from the apt. and other places and identified x y & z yet failed to identify anything that belonged to the one person who they were looking for …. it just doesn’t ring true !


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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  tigger on Sat 18 Feb - 19:34

ELI wrote:The procedure in the cases of missing persons (particularly those classified as high risk & vulnerable) includes capturing physical evidence which might assist in the identification and recovery of bodies or future enquiries into homicide.

This means obtaining identifying characteristics for reference from objects left behind. This process is not simply collection, in other words investigative effort must be made and recorded to establish as far as possible the link between the recovery and the missing person.

The most likely sources are;

DNA profiling – for this to happen the missing person must be considered the subject.

Why was there nothing in the apartment which would have generated a genetic profile of the victim. Photo’s show she wore two sets of clothing that day and I would also question that even if had they been put through a wash cycle, stains etc. on certain items of clothing would still have had enough biological evidence embedded in the material to generate a genetic profile, that’s not to mention the many other things in the apartment that should have also been present – If an early report is true which actually mentions stained socks being sent to the FSS for analysis, then this would indicate that authorities were trying to find biological evidence to create a genetic profile of Madeleine.

It's truely bewildering that they collected samples from the apt. and other places and identified x y & z yet failed to identify anything that belonged to the one person who they were looking for …. it just doesn’t ring true !


Surely you know about the toothbrush/towel/sandals story? When the PJ came to collect objects that had been exclusively used by Maddie, all these items were shared (one toothbrush between three children) by the three children. Therefore no unique DNA profile could be extracted from normally available items.
It's easily explained by her not being there from about the 30th of april or thereabouts. Plenty of time to tidy up.
The cleaner mentions seeing trainers, ideal for DNA - never seen again.
This point was the thing that made me join the forum, like Alice in Wonderland I can't believe too many impossible things before breakfast.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 19:43

tigger wrote:
ELI wrote:The procedure in the cases of missing persons (particularly those classified as high risk & vulnerable) includes capturing physical evidence which might assist in the identification and recovery of bodies or future enquiries into homicide.

This means obtaining identifying characteristics for reference from objects left behind. This process is not simply collection, in other words investigative effort must be made and recorded to establish as far as possible the link between the recovery and the missing person.

The most likely sources are;

DNA profiling – for this to happen the missing person must be considered the subject.

Why was there nothing in the apartment which would have generated a genetic profile of the victim. Photo’s show she wore two sets of clothing that day and I would also question that even if had they been put through a wash cycle, stains etc. on certain items of clothing would still have had enough biological evidence embedded in the material to generate a genetic profile, that’s not to mention the many other things in the apartment that should have also been present – If an early report is true which actually mentions stained socks being sent to the FSS for analysis, then this would indicate that authorities were trying to find biological evidence to create a genetic profile of Madeleine.

It's truely bewildering that they collected samples from the apt. and other places and identified x y & z yet failed to identify anything that belonged to the one person who they were looking for …. it just doesn’t ring true !


Surely you know about the toothbrush/towel/sandals story? When the PJ came to collect objects that had been exclusively used by Maddie, all these items were shared (one toothbrush between three children) by the three children. Therefore no unique DNA profile could be extracted from normally available items.
It's easily explained by her not being there from about the 30th of april or thereabouts. Plenty of time to tidy up.
The cleaner mentions seeing trainers, ideal for DNA - never seen again.
This point was the thing that made me join the forum, like Alice in Wonderland I can't believe too many impossible things before breakfast.

Ah yes Tigger, how could anyone forget the story of the erm shared toothbrush etc.

Also there were enough so called experts on the ground in the first week, including one who was supposed to be a specialist in missing persons cases and they all seem to have completely ignored protocol governing this type of investigation, protocols I mean for UK nationals going missing abroad / international investigations.
Basically - police forces are encouraged to develop Joint Investigation Teams with foreign agencies and if an incident is considered a serious crime a strategy should be jointly developed with foreign police to deal with case ownership, family liaison, lines of enquiry, EVIDENCE gathering and believe it or not media <----- which is just laughable in this case.



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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  tigger on Sat 18 Feb - 19:48

ELI wrote:
tigger wrote:
ELI wrote:The procedure in the cases of missing persons (particularly those classified as high risk & vulnerable) includes capturing physical evidence which might assist in the identification and recovery of bodies or future enquiries into homicide.

This means obtaining identifying characteristics for reference from objects left behind. This process is not simply collection, in other words investigative effort must be made and recorded to establish as far as possible the link between the recovery and the missing person.

The most likely sources are;

DNA profiling – for this to happen the missing person must be considered the subject.

Why was there nothing in the apartment which would have generated a genetic profile of the victim. Photo’s show she wore two sets of clothing that day and I would also question that even if had they been put through a wash cycle, stains etc. on certain items of clothing would still have had enough biological evidence embedded in the material to generate a genetic profile, that’s not to mention the many other things in the apartment that should have also been present – If an early report is true which actually mentions stained socks being sent to the FSS for analysis, then this would indicate that authorities were trying to find biological evidence to create a genetic profile of Madeleine.

It's truely bewildering that they collected samples from the apt. and other places and identified x y & z yet failed to identify anything that belonged to the one person who they were looking for …. it just doesn’t ring true !


Surely you know about the toothbrush/towel/sandals story? When the PJ came to collect objects that had been exclusively used by Maddie, all these items were shared (one toothbrush between three children) by the three children. Therefore no unique DNA profile could be extracted from normally available items.
It's easily explained by her not being there from about the 30th of april or thereabouts. Plenty of time to tidy up.
The cleaner mentions seeing trainers, ideal for DNA - never seen again.
This point was the thing that made me join the forum, like Alice in Wonderland I can't believe too many impossible things before breakfast.

Ah yes Tigger, how could anyone forget the story of the erm shared toothbrush etc.

Also there were enough so called experts on the ground in the first week, including one who was supposed to be a specialist in missing persons cases and they all seem to have completely ignored protocol governing this type of investigation, protocols I mean for UK nationals going missing abroad / international investigations.
Basically - police forces are encouraged to develop Joint Investigation Teams with foreign agencies and if an incident is considered a serious crime a strategy should be jointly developed with foreign police to deal with case ownership, family liaison, lines of enquiry, EVIDENCE gathering and believe it or not media <----- which is just laughable in this case.



I remember an account very early on in the affair of the British police liaison officer turning up in PdL, festooned in quality rubber bracelets as per TM. He took them off after reading the PJ files.
The PJ did immediately request information on finances of the McCs and Maddie's health records. They were denied. The PJ were told the McCs didn't have credit cards either. It was tough going right from the start!

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  interested on Sat 18 Feb - 19:55

Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 20:00

tigger wrote:
ELI wrote:
tigger wrote:
ELI wrote:The procedure in the cases of missing persons (particularly those classified as high risk & vulnerable) includes capturing physical evidence which might assist in the identification and recovery of bodies or future enquiries into homicide.

This means obtaining identifying characteristics for reference from objects left behind. This process is not simply collection, in other words investigative effort must be made and recorded to establish as far as possible the link between the recovery and the missing person.

The most likely sources are;

DNA profiling – for this to happen the missing person must be considered the subject.

Why was there nothing in the apartment which would have generated a genetic profile of the victim. Photo’s show she wore two sets of clothing that day and I would also question that even if had they been put through a wash cycle, stains etc. on certain items of clothing would still have had enough biological evidence embedded in the material to generate a genetic profile, that’s not to mention the many other things in the apartment that should have also been present – If an early report is true which actually mentions stained socks being sent to the FSS for analysis, then this would indicate that authorities were trying to find biological evidence to create a genetic profile of Madeleine.

It's truely bewildering that they collected samples from the apt. and other places and identified x y & z yet failed to identify anything that belonged to the one person who they were looking for …. it just doesn’t ring true !


Surely you know about the toothbrush/towel/sandals story? When the PJ came to collect objects that had been exclusively used by Maddie, all these items were shared (one toothbrush between three children) by the three children. Therefore no unique DNA profile could be extracted from normally available items.
It's easily explained by her not being there from about the 30th of april or thereabouts. Plenty of time to tidy up.
The cleaner mentions seeing trainers, ideal for DNA - never seen again.
This point was the thing that made me join the forum, like Alice in Wonderland I can't believe too many impossible things before breakfast.

Ah yes Tigger, how could anyone forget the story of the erm shared toothbrush etc.

Also there were enough so called experts on the ground in the first week, including one who was supposed to be a specialist in missing persons cases and they all seem to have completely ignored protocol governing this type of investigation, protocols I mean for UK nationals going missing abroad / international investigations.
Basically - police forces are encouraged to develop Joint Investigation Teams with foreign agencies and if an incident is considered a serious crime a strategy should be jointly developed with foreign police to deal with case ownership, family liaison, lines of enquiry, EVIDENCE gathering and believe it or not media <----- which is just laughable in this case.



I remember an account very early on in the affair of the British police liaison officer turning up in PdL, festooned in quality rubber bracelets as per TM. He took them off after reading the PJ files.
The PJ did immediately request information on finances of the McCs and Maddie's health records. They were denied. The PJ were told the McCs didn't have credit cards either. It was tough going right from the start!

Unbelievable isn't it and the more you learn the more unbelievable it sounds, I don’t know what went wrong but I’m sure it wouldn’t have had anything to do with ‘ ownership’ of the investigation, nor an oversight.


from an early report - “ A pair of Madeleine's ankle socks ? 'heavily stained on the sole and the heel' ? were also examined at the Birmingham laboratory. “

The analysis of the hair samples are just as baffling, 11 hairs found on tops belonging to Madeleine yet even with definite hair samples from siblings and parents for comparisson they could not identify one single hair as being hers.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 20:04

interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 18 Feb - 20:07

ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 20:19

AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.

Yes AnnaEsse they are indeed, it would take some time though to thoroughly scrub area's with a toothbrush, so if they were used the question is when.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  malena stool on Sat 18 Feb - 20:32

AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 20:34

malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

..... pity they didn't keep them to clean the hire vehicle as well

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 18 Feb - 20:39

malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

Of course it is, malena. Don't you do the floor tiles and the bathroom grouting before you go home? I'm shocked!

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  NoStone on Sat 18 Feb - 20:42

how old were the twins at the time - please remind me? Would they be brushing at this stage?

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 20:45

NoStone wrote:how old were the twins at the time - please remind me? Would they be brushing at this stage?

I think 2yrs old ?... and developing the taste for seabass .......

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 18 Feb - 20:46

NoStone wrote:how old were the twins at the time - please remind me? Would they be brushing at this stage?

They were two years and three months and should have been brushing by that age.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  tigger on Sat 18 Feb - 21:10

AnnaEsse wrote:
malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

Of course it is, malena. Don't you do the floor tiles and the bathroom grouting before you go home? I'm shocked!

i usually wash the curtains as well.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  gillyspot on Sat 18 Feb - 21:21

tigger wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

Of course it is, malena. Don't you do the floor tiles and the bathroom grouting before you go home? I'm shocked!

i usually wash the curtains as well.

Kate McCann would be so proud of you tigger.

Back on topic Wasn't cuddlecat "reeking" of Madeleine's DNA? If Madeleine had the cuddly toy with her all the time (which I doubt) why wasn't that checked for DNA or was it & it had none.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  malena stool on Sat 18 Feb - 21:24

AnnaEsse wrote:
malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

Of course it is, malena. Don't you do the floor tiles and the bathroom grouting before you go home? I'm shocked!
Oh I've done so much more, I've repaired damaged shutters, rehung doors, papered ceilings and delivered a litter of cats just to show how much I appreciated the cleanliness of a holiday appartment....

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 18 Feb - 21:40

malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

Of course it is, malena. Don't you do the floor tiles and the bathroom grouting before you go home? I'm shocked!
Oh I've done so much more, I've repaired damaged shutters, rehung doors, papered ceilings and delivered a litter of cats just to show how much I appreciated the cleanliness of a holiday appartment....

Do come for tea, malena, and bring your equipment with you!

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  NoStone on Sat 18 Feb - 21:40

)
AnnaEsse wrote:
NoStone wrote:how old were the twins at the time - please remind me? Would they be brushing at this stage?

They were two years and three months and should have been brushing by that age.

Old enough for them to have their own toothbrushes then Anna. Does anyone know of parents that make their young children share brushes??? Or does everybody do it like leaving their kids whilst they dine at the bottom of the garden?? Thhis gap needs filling (sorry )

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 18 Feb - 21:44

NoStone wrote:)
AnnaEsse wrote:
NoStone wrote:how old were the twins at the time - please remind me? Would they be brushing at this stage?

They were two years and three months and should have been brushing by that age.

Old enough for them to have their own toothbrushes then Anna. Does anyone know of parents that make their young children share brushes??? Or does everybody do it like leaving their kids whilst they dine at the bottom of the garden?? Thhis gap needs filling (sorry )

Well, my grandsons are 5 and 1 and they each have a toothbrush.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  gilly4 on Sat 18 Feb - 22:04

I've got three children who although having their own tootbrushes, hairbrushes, towels, pillows etc would have casually used each others, not always deliberately or accidently or as a wind up. So what I'm saying is that you would never know if the dna ad been contaminated on their belongings, fortunately I never had reason to worry about it. It is hard with little children when they are close in age.
IMO the PJ would also realise this, and ask for an item whic almost certainly had M's dna on and that could be tricky. I think a lot of the only 1 tootbrush story was silly newspaper hype.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  malena stool on Sat 18 Feb - 22:08

ELI wrote:
malena stool wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
ELI wrote:
interested wrote:Does anyone know if the McCanns were ever asked by the press why three children shared the same toothbrush. I remember reading on the old Mirror forum one of the posters suggested that two toothbrushes were probably used during the clean-up.

I've never heard that before interested, but nothing would surprise me. You simply don't take 3 children on holiday with only one toothbrush

Old toothbrushes are very useful for cleaning grouting between tiles and cleaning the sealant around the bath and washbasin. Also useful, possibly, for cleaning between floor tiles.
This is just the sort of action all upright and true UK nationals do to a holiday appartment, ensuring it is as clean as when they found it.

..... pity they didn't keep them to clean the hire vehicle as well
Sadly they'd worn the bristles down by then due to their endeavours cleaning the appartment...

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

Post  ELI on Sat 18 Feb - 22:11

gilly4 wrote:I've got three children who although having their own tootbrushes, hairbrushes, towels, pillows etc would have casually used each others, not always deliberately or accidently or as a wind up. So what I'm saying is that you would never know if the dna ad been contaminated on their belongings, fortunately I never had reason to worry about it. It is hard with little children when they are close in age.
IMO the PJ would also realise this, and ask for an item whic almost certainly had M's dna on and that could be tricky. I think a lot of the only 1 tootbrush story was silly newspaper hype.

Perhaps gilly4 but there would have been things that did have her DNA on them and they did have genetic profiles of the twins to compare anything to.

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Re: Madeleine's DNA

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