Mother who claimed gang was in her garden is charged with murdering her two children in house fire

i can see where's she's coming from too but her solutions are not the answer.

Interesting debate! I too can see what hobnob's getting at and a lot of it is very true. But, running with the checks for prospective parents bit, the problem would be that it's simply not possible to know in advance what kind of parent someone will be. If someone had told us pre May 2007 that a bunch of respected British doctors on holiday in Portugal would all leave their very young children alone at night in their apartments while they went off to wine and dine, would we have believed it? We'd have thought no way, doctors are intelligent, they would know better than most the dangers of leaving toddlers and babies alone, they'd make sure to have a babysitter. Yet we now know they didn't bother with babysitters, only one couple had a baby monitor, the rest relied on visits (they say) made every 30 minutes or so, repeated periods of 30 minutes where goodness knows what might have happened to any of the children (sickness, accident, fire, intruder).

So I don't think you can assess people to know what sort of parents they'll make; they can have money and professional jobs and still be stupid and reckless where children are concerned. OTOH I know a girl who got pregnant in her teens, a rather hot-headed young woman with no interest in children, yet she has turned out to be a wonderful mother to her young son. I don't think she'd have passed any assessment of her capabilities to rear a child before her son was born, yet she's making a great job of it now. And she doesn't rely on state handouts, she works full-time in a care home for a low wage.

People are complex, you never know who's going to come up trumps in the end.

There are no easy solutions to the spiralling problems that are now endemic within our so called "free" society. The liberating 60's was a good thing, and it alleviated a great deal of oppression and suffering, but the pendulum quickly swung too far in the opposite direction. Too much freedom for youngsters has proven disastrous, and this 'anything goes' society will self-destruct unless there is a brave and even radical attempt to stem and hopefully reverse the current situation imo.

i agree with the point about not seeing if 2 doctors would turn out to be irresponsible neglectful parents but if, as were are given to believe, kate had issues then it would have been picked up and maybe she would have never been allowed to have kids or, that if she did there would be a proviso that regular checks were to be made on their physical and mental well being.
maybe realising that they would be screened before having kids would have flagged up their selfishness and narcissism and further checks would have been done as to why they want children.
Was it because it was seen as de rigeur for successful doctors to have kids the perfect family etc, would they understand that by having a kid it would mean giving up their social lives and me times in favor of them time?
maybe if they hadn't been allowed IVF at all then they would be a lot happier and granted the 3 children per se would not exist in their current form but it may be that those 3 children in some form or another would be alive and living idyllic childhoods.

The point i am making is the fact that anyone of breeding age can have a child with anyone else and no checks or anything are made before hand and yet if that same person wanted to adopt they would have to reveal their most intimate physical, financial and medical history ro complete strangers in the hope that they are found suitable parents for a child already born. That to me is unfair to the child and also to the prospective parents , it should be one or the other not both.
You either makes a great parent or you don't.
I hope i have made some of you think about this from a new angle, no offence is meant and all are entitled to their own beliefs but i hope you can see the point i am trying to make.

Hobnob,

I basically agree with you. I have always thought that the most important job anyone does is being a parent, yet there is no training, no interview and no supervision.

Bonsoir Anna,
you are right, we have a lot of tests and exams in life but there is no permit holder to have children. Very long ago, I said one day to my pupils, they should be a licence to procreate. They were indignant:" it's a right, it's a right!" Nowedays, when I study with the new generation an american book ( in French "le Passeur") in which the parents are chosen according to carefull criterias and a child given after a few peacefull years, there are more and more pupils to say that it's good because the children don't suffer when the parents divorce ( more than 50/100 pupils live in split families)

frencheuropean wrote:Bonsoir Anna,
you are right, we have a lot of tests and exams in life but there is no permit holder to have children. Very long ago, I said one day to my pupils, they should be a licence to procreate. They were indignant:" it's a right, it's a right!" Nowedays, when I study with the new generation an american book ( in French "le Passeur") in which the parents are chosen according to carefull criterias and a child given after a few peacefull years, there are more and more pupils to say that it's good because the children don't suffer when the parents divorce ( more than 50/100 pupils live in split families)

Its natural, its what all specis of animal do. Dogs and cats are neutured. It would be a very sad day if they decide certain humans should be treated like an animal. I know certain humans treat their offspring like animals but I beleive they are in a minority, such a minority it makes headlines when they do. I would rather a child had a parent present all day to bring it up even if the parent is receiving handouts. The problem for me is parents who leave their children all day for their careers (not those who have to work). They leave it late in life to have children, which means in some cases they are menopausal with young kids and they have high flying careers to worry about. Its a dangerous combination which puts children in danger and recent cases in the news concerning children being harmed by their parents are from well off families. Of course some make excellent parents because they are more fulfilled in life and likewise plenty of single mums from sink estates make excellent parents, but it mostly seems to be mums under pressure who crack and I cannot think of worse pressure than juggling kids and career. If you have no choice its hard but understandable but those who crave the idilic lifestyle of perfect kids, high flying career and hobbies, sorry but often something has to give and quite often it does.

It has been interesting to see other members points of view.
they have seen what i have tried to point out which i am glad.
I know it seems harsh but animals will look after their young come hell and high water, even to the extent of sacrtificing themselves. A mother will protect her young to the death and has been seen to mourn the passing of a 'child' when nature does what nature does.
Considering our intelligence, we seem to be one of the few mammals that will deliberately neglect, harm and even kill our own young for simple reasons such as they interfere in our social life or love life or they aren't silent automatons but demanding, noisy, messy and independant.
Yes. i hear you say but in the wild parents will abandon sickly young or a male will kill the young of the previous male if he takes over a pack.I agree, but that is nature ensuring survival of the fittest,rather than spend time nursing a sickly or disabled youngster that will fall at the first winter or predator they concentrate on feeding the strongest and healthiest so that the species can go on.
We have the ability and the humanity to try and fight for all our young even when it seems hopeless and even when we know deep in our hearts that it would be a kindness to let them go.
But some people lack any kind of maternal or paternal instinct, they see children as the latest must have accessory simply because their friends have kids or some celeb has adopted another baby from some 3rd world country so they think they must as well.
They see glamorous moms managing a high flying career and a umpteen kids and living the good life and think they can have that life as well and then once they realise that they are never going to have that life because they don't have the money or support they come to resnt the child. Unlike a pet which you can sell or giveaway or hand over to a shelter, a child is for life.
a kid of 15 doesn't get that, she sees it as a living doll that will love her unconditionally and then realises that unlike a doll it can't be tossed in a corner when she gets bored with it, it will demand food at all hours of the day and night, it will sleep when it wants to not when she wants it to, she can't go out because she has no babysitter so she sits in a house with a screaming baby and wonders where it all went wrong.
At least as a couple you can split the chores but even that is hard going and leads to tension, imagine doing it on your own with no support and no money.
These days women put off having kids till they have reached the top in their job and met mr right or more likely met mr has the right sperm.
That is why IVF has soared not only because our lifestyles have lead to incresing rates of std's , but poorer quality sperm, women becoming mothers at older and older ages ( why would a 65 yr want to become a mom?)
they have a child simply because it is part and parcel of the lifestyle. Good job, nice house possibly a husband or long term partner (but thats not essential these days) a pet , a good car all that is missing is the obligatory child, so they look through the catalogue and either choose a sperm donor or a child. Nowadays they don't even have to go through the messy business of having sex or giving birth. You have enough money you can do it all in a test tube- i'll have her egg and his sperm and her over there can be the incubator. heres x £00,000's see you in 9 months and instant motherhood without all the messy and inconvenient bits..
Children are no long seen as children with their own feelings and desires who will grow up into adults but as a commodity to be bought and sold and you have the money.

What hope does our society have when we can't be arsed to look after or protect the next generation.
We are reaping what we have sown. The have it all society are demanding to have it all and right now and if you say no we'll take you to court and sue you for every penny you have.

Another problem for me is the age of consent in Britain. It keeps being lowered. So long as sex is legal, having a baby is legal. If the age of consent was higher, then by all means kids will be kids and will do what kids do, but there would be grounds for saying in law, if you break the law and it ends in pregnancy, the law will ensure you do not raise the child. That again is extreme, but might make alot of young girls and boys think twice. They could start now in cases where children become parents at ages of 12 and 13.

This soulds like a dystopia that's worthy of a novel.

I don't think that people should need a license to breed, just as I don't think that the government or the health service or anyone else has an automatic right to our organs when we die. It's been suggested that because of the lack of transplant organs available that doctors have access to them - unless individuals decide to opt out. I suppose I'm a bit of a libertarian and the idea that The State owns our organs repels me. Just as the idea that they should take it upon themselves to decide who amongst us is fit to procreate repels me. I'm sitting here right now shaking my head at the idea.


And really, if we've learnt anything from this case, it is, surely that we should be very wary of various power structures telling us what's what, who is to be trusted, they are the ones who should decide, and so on. Who seriously is fit to sit in judgement - on such scale? Erm hello has everybody forgotten operation Ore, how good the intentions initially, but what a travesty of justice ensued? There have been so many tales of over-stretched, undertrained, incompetent social workers, does anyone possibly think it would be practical to extend their remit to checking out every person/couple who wants to have a child, so that they can give you some sort of certificate of competence. Ridiculous.


What criteria would they use? Religious views? Or money? is is only okay for the rich to have kids? And what if someone is handicapped in some way? Should they be outlawed? Should they be sterilised? These are the kind of judgements that it would come down to. There are people in the world whose views or lifestyles we don't agree with. But we can't stop them from having kids. That's life. That's how it's always been.