Mother jumps off cliffs after killing 'little angel' Keira

Mum kills four-year-old daughter then jumps off cliffs

5/07/2010



A mum caught up in a bitter divorce battle killed her four-year-old daughter before jumping to her death from 250ft cliffs.

Distraught Cathy Madden, 40, died after falling on to the beach below despite a desperate bid by two chaplains to talk her out of taking her own life.

But refusing to listen, she plunged from Second Sister Cliff near Beachy Head, at 2pm on Saturday.

At the same time police broke into a £300,000 detached home 40 miles away at Felpham, West Sussex, where they found the body of her daughter Keira in a bedroom.

An initial postmortem on the youngster yesterday proved inconclusive and toxicology reports were ordered.

Police said they were not looking for anyone else in connection with the youngster's death.

Battle They confirmed one line of inquiry was that Mrs Madden had killed her own child while under pressure after her marriage break-up.

According to neighbours and police sources Mrs Madden had split with Keira's father Steve Madden, 42, and had been involved in a two-year-long divorce battle.

Det Chief Insp Nick Sloan said: "Beachy Head chaplains talked to Cathy not long before she died, after they saw her abandoned car. We are treating her death as a suicide.

"At around the same time police officers forced entry into a house and discovered the body of a young girl."

Mr Sloan said Mr Madden, a computer programmer in Germany, was visiting the UK at the time.

He added: "He's devastated, absolutely devastated.

We have asked him about giving a tribute but he can't get the words together.

"This is an appalling tragedy and all the family are in shock.

"The address in Felpham was the marital home at one point and I believe they had both lived in Germany for a time.

"For whatever reason that did not work out and she came back."

Cathy's parents Peter and Mary Oates, who live two miles away, were also too distressed to comment. Yesterday neighbour Steve Hill told how police had been called to the home two months ago to deal with a noisy dispute.

Mr Hill, 46, said: "There was a lot of shouting and commotion and the police were called.

"She had been throwing furniture and clothing from the windows. Every time I saw her, she was miserable."

Gillian Ogbourne-Smith, who used to run a children's nursery nearby, added: "She had been very stressed lately. But she was a lovely, lively lady and her daughter was adorable. This is a tragedy."

Sweetie Yesterday friends and relatives placed tributes outside the 1930s home on the leafy Roundle Estate.

Keira's godparents, Sarah and Ewan, who were too upset to speak, left a sunflower toy outside the house with a note.

It read: "A little sweetie who will always be remembered. Keira you will truly be missed.

"Love Sarah, Ewan and Ben." A message on a bouquet of flowers left by a man pushing a pram said: "Dear Keira, We are all going to miss you so much.

"Lots of love from Frances, Steve, Rosie, Annie and Charlie."

A note in children's handwriting says: "We are going to miss playing with you... love from your mates."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/07/05/mum-kills-four-year-old-daughter-then-jumps-off-cliffs-115875-22382879

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&topic=n&ncl=dBwcxix51TQxldMD8sVR1M0O5VyrM

Oh no. How dreadfully sad.

Wallflower wrote:Oh no. How dreadfully sad.

Your sentiments are obviously echoed a millionfold Wallflower. But why take the life of an innocent child? I cannot understand nor even begin to sympathise with any parent who takes the lives of their own child(ren), no matter what the personal circumstances. Whilst this is indeed yet another deeply terrible tragedy there simply are no excuses for any parent (mother or father) to take the lives of their own children and as long as our society continues to condone these kind of tragedies by trying to find excuses to explain away the parent's selfish actions we will unfortunately continue to see such terrible tragedies.

I don't know.

For someone deeply distressed and disturbed (just speculating here) it could be a "mercy killing." A mother who sees herself as her child's protector and who is going to kill herself might not think this is a better alternative to leaving her child motherless and vulnerable.

I wonder how much these news stories feed directly into the minds of other disturbed people, however subconsciously. Because this calls to mind the recent story fo the mother who asphixiated her two small children with a plastic bag.

I dont understand anyone taking their childs life either (if that is what she has done) I dont know whether this is happening more often or it has always happened and we just didnt hear about it but more and more children seem to be in the papers killed at the hands of their parents.
It is a terrible situation to be in when your relationship breaks down and you are left with a child to take care of as well as yourself. It happened to me 20 odd years ago. Never once did I ever contemplate hurting myself or my child but it was very hard going having to grit your teeth and carry on seeing your ex as it justs twists the knife sometimes, especially in the early days when you are full of resentment.

"At the same time police broke into a £300,000 detached home 40 miles away at Felpham"

What has the price of the house to do with this tragedy?

Sussex double deaths father pays tribute to 'princess'

Monday, 5 July 2010



The father of a four-year-old girl whose body was found at the same time her mother threw herself off a cliff has described her as his "princess".

Chaplains tried to coax Cathy Madden, 40, away from Seven Sisters Cliff at Birling Gap, East Sussex, on Saturday afternoon but she fell to her death.

Meanwhile, police traced her abandoned car to her home in Bognor Regis, where they found the body of daughter Keira.

Steve Madden paid tribute to the child he said was his "cheeky monkey".

He said she was "loved and loving, adored and adoring, happy and the bringer of happiness".

"Friendly and full of friendship, laughing and the spreader of laughter, smiling and the giver of smiles."

He ended the tribute with: "I'll see you again someday...Daddy."

Access visits

Police said Mrs Madden had been going through a divorce from the child's father, a self-employed computer expert who lives and works in Germany.

He would come back to the UK every three weeks for access visits with Keira.
Cathy Madden on her wedding day Cathy Madden's abandoned car lead police to the body of her daughter

Only the mother and the daughter lived at the West Sussex house in Roundle Avenue, Felpham. No-one else is being sought in connection with the deaths.

Det Chief Insp Nick Sloan said on Sunday the family was going through a very difficult time.

"The father is devastated by what has happened. This appears to be a tragic series of events."

Police are conducting house-to-house inquiries to establish the circumstances leading up to Keira's death.

A post-mortem examination on the body of Keira was inconclusive and police are awaiting the results of toxicology tests to establish a cause of death.

Keira's godparents, Sarah and Ewan, left a sunflower toy outside the house with a note speaking of their loss.

"A little sweetie who will always be remembered," they said.

Another message attached to a bunch of flowers said: "Keira, gone too soon.

"Rest in peace little angel."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/10509331.stm

Sad sad story,
In the Netherlands so called family drama's happens in the average of seven times a year.

Parents who kill their children and then commit suicide do so because they are obviously not happy.
But there are a number of reasons why people do this:
1) mental health problems: One doesn’t overlooks the consequences of his / her act .
2) One thinks after suicide the child is left untended because the one parent thinks the other is not good for child care.
3) A psychosis can feel that death is a solution for everyone because after death a much better and happier life waits.
4) Revenge of the (ex) partner
5) One misgrants the other parent the child and sees it the only way is to kill the child.
6) Parents who think the child is possessed by the devil.

Often they are nice people that do so. In many cases, no one saw this coming. Many psychological problems are not visible to people. Someone who is psychotic is not always to show the outside world. Therefore, these family dramas often are unavoidable.
Suicide is usually a part of the Plan. But sometimes people are so shocked by what they have done that they abandon the planned suicide attempt of the suicide attempt failed. Sadly, because the parent who has caused the drama lives the rest of his / her life into hell.


"Lately it often happens that women offenders are behind child murders.
In almost two out of three dramas that is the case. "The offenders themselves often lost a loved one in their youth, had a bad relationship with their parents and a mental disorder," concludes psychologist Verheugt.
Sunaina's death was yet another family drama in the Amsterdam area, where the mother is seen as the offender.
Notable cases include the mother in De Bijenkorf in Amsterdam, who threw her child down the stairway and a woman in the North of Molenwijk who took the life of her son and was arrested walking into the sea.
"I think it not strange that women are often the culprits," said the spokeswoman of Childcare. "Mother and child are closely interrelated (symbiotic relationship). Often the father is no longer present. The families known to us, are run by the mothers. And the babysitter is often a woman, male attendants are not many."
Verheugt, since 1999 as a psychologist attached to the Dutch Institute for Forensic Psychiatry and Psychology (NIFP) in Amsterdam and operates 53 family dramas examined, suggests that men killing mostly from feelings of revenge, jealousy and punishment. "Women act out more often unwanted nature of the child and psychosis. Based on my research it is clear that child killers often have lost their own father, mother, brother or sister. They often come from relatively large families in which the emotionally available and few parents are among the lower socioeconomic classes, "says Verheugt.

Schnuffel wrote:

Wallflower wrote:Oh no. How dreadfully sad.

Your sentiments are obviously echoed a millionfold Wallflower. But why take the life of an innocent child? I cannot understand nor even begin to sympathise with any parent who takes the lives of their own child(ren), no matter what the personal circumstances. Whilst this is indeed yet another deeply terrible tragedy there simply are no excuses for any parent (mother or father) to take the lives of their own children and as long as our society continues to condone these kind of tragedies by trying to find excuses to explain away the parent's selfish actions we will unfortunately continue to see such terrible tragedies.

I didn't the rest of the thread, but I can tell you based on numbers, that mothers who commit suicide have the tendency to also kill their own children. I believe it's some psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient, like saying "if I won't live, you as my child won't live too, and that way, I set you free from the problems of the world".

Wallflower wrote:Oh no. How dreadfully sad.

Yes it is but how terribly selfish,what right did she have to end her childs life ,this to me always seems like revenge against their former partner the ultimate in revenge, so wrong.

http://www.herald.ie/world-news/mother-jumps-off-cliffs-after-killing-little-angel-keira-2246494.html


Mother jumps off cliffs after killing 'little angel' Keira
HORROR: Divorce trauma woman shunned pleas

By Russell Jenkins


Monday July 05 2010

A mother in the throes of a divorce is believed to have killed her four-year-old daughter before taking her own life by jumping off a cliff.

Keira Madden's body was discovered at her family's home on Saturday afternoon shortly before her mother Catherine (40) is thought to have jumped from cliffs near Beachy Head on the east Sussex coast of England, despite attempts to dissuade her by chaplains who patrol the notorious suicide spot.

The young girl was described as a "little angel" by friends as they laid flowers outside the family home in Felpham, near Bognor Regis, yesterday.

Neighbours described seeing Keira playing in the back garden in recent days.

"She had friends over and they all sounded so happy," one said. "They were all having a great time. It is a real shock that we will never hear that little girl again."

Another said: "We cannot believe what has happened. I would always hear the little girl playing on the trampoline. She seemed such a happy little thing."

Mrs Madden had been going through a divorce from her husband Steven, a computer expert who lives and works in Germany. He came back to Britain every three weeks for access visits with Keira.

One neighbour described a "public spat" between the parents about two months ago when Mrs Madden threw her husband's clothes out of the window and put others in suitcases and dumped them on the pavement.

Detective Chief Inspector Nick Sloan said Mr Madden was "devastated by what has happened".

Police confirmed that they were not looking for anyone else in connection with the two deaths. Mrs Madden ignored the chaplains at the top of the cliff and jumped at around 2pm on Saturday.

Body

At the same time, officers attempting to trace the owner of a car which had been abandoned at Birling Gap, were entering the family's detached house, where they found Keira's body. A post-mortem examination to establish the cause of the girl's death has proved inconclusive.

Keira's godparents, who were too upset to speak, placed a sunflower toy outside the family house, with the message: "Keira, you will truly be missed. Love Sarah, Ewan and Ben."

hnews@herald.ie

That really is a tragedy but if true that the Mother killed the little girl, what a selfish thing to to!!!!!!!

Obviously we don"t know the ins and outs of the case, but obviously the Husband was keeping up a relationship with his daughter even from a long distance.

halfamo wrote:

Wallflower wrote:Oh no. How dreadfully sad.

Yes it is but how terribly selfish,what right did she have to end her childs life ,this to me always seems like revenge against their former partner the ultimate in revenge, so wrong.

I said the same thing on Antoinette"s thread, it was very selfish of the Mother to take the child"s life as well. Apparently, the couple had had a row a few weeks earlier and she threw his clothes out onto the front garden.

What a very sad story and a horrendous outcome. We do not know
the ins and outs, but for the life of me I cannot begin to comprehend
what was going through this Mother's mind. I know we don't always
see suicide coming to a loved one and it's something we never get over
but to take the life of her child as well she must have been in a very
dark place. It's a pity she could not talk to someone, I wish my son
had felt he could, but as I said, most times close family do not see
it coming and the guilt you feel never goes.

RIORITA wrote:What a very sad story and a horrendous outcome. We do not know
the ins and outs, but for the life of me I cannot begin to comprehend
what was going through this Mother's mind. I know we don't always
see suicide coming to a loved one and it's something we never get over
but to take the life of her child as well she must have been in a very
dark place. It's a pity she could not talk to someone, I wish my son
had felt he could, but as I said, most times close family do not see
it coming and the guilt you feel never goes.

Sorry to hear about your son Riorita. Suicide affects everyone when it happens. My thoughts are with you and your son.

Thank you Antionette. Your correct, it affects not only the immediate
family but far beyond. But, for the sake of his wife and son for the last
20 years we have carried on, but he is the last thing I think of at night
and the first thing I think of in the morning. You cannot help but feel
guilty.

I'm so sorry to hear about your son, Riorita. xx

Thank you jwk, much appreciated. This poor girl must have been in
a very dark place to have taken her wee girl as well. It must be
unbearable for her family and friends.

FSoares wrote:

I didn't the rest of the thread, but I can tell you based on numbers, that mothers who commit suicide have the tendency to also kill their own children. I believe it's some psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient, like saying "if I won't live, you as my child won't live too, and that way, I set you free from the problems of the world".

Psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient? A kind of, "I gave birth to you & brought you into this world so I have the right to remove you from it"? That's no disorder or psychological defence FSoares, its pure & simple, premeditated murder and if that mother was not in a lying in a morgue somewhere along with her poor daughter that's exactly what she should have been charged with. Sorry but I have very little sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an innocent child no matter who they are or what the circumstances because children are not possessions that we can just dispose of.

Schnuffel wrote:

FSoares wrote:

I didn't the rest of the thread, but I can tell you based on numbers, that mothers who commit suicide have the tendency to also kill their own children. I believe it's some psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient, like saying "if I won't live, you as my child won't live too, and that way, I set you free from the problems of the world".

Psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient? A kind of, "I gave birth to you & brought you into this world so I have the right to remove you from it"? That's no disorder or psychological defence FSoares, its pure & simple, premeditated murder and if that mother was not in a lying in a morgue somewhere along with her poor daughter that's exactly what she should have been charged with. Sorry but I have very little sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an innocent child no matter who they are or what the circumstances because children are not possessions that we can just dispose of.

of course there is no excuse or defence, Schnuffel. But that's for you and me and most people who look at it in a rational way and who aren't sick. It does not mean that it doesn't exist. Mental illness is a reality and so are 'mercy killings', sadly.

We dont really know what went on in that family which made a mother kill her own child.


She must off been pretty desperate to do such a thing, perhaps she was scared the father would take her child to germany and keep her there or perhaps things were happening we dont know about and she couldnt cope with it, we will never know.

Schnuffel wrote:

FSoares wrote:

I didn't the rest of the thread, but I can tell you based on numbers, that mothers who commit suicide have the tendency to also kill their own children. I believe it's some psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient, like saying "if I won't live, you as my child won't live too, and that way, I set you free from the problems of the world".

Psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient? A kind of, "I gave birth to you & brought you into this world so I have the right to remove you from it"? That's no disorder or psychological defence FSoares, its pure & simple, premeditated murder and if that mother was not in a lying in a morgue somewhere along with her poor daughter that's exactly what she should have been charged with. Sorry but I have very little sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an innocent child no matter who they are or what the circumstances because children are not possessions that we can just dispose of.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, Schnuffel. However, not so many months ago, I had the chance to hear exactly that, from a mother who was saved from drowning, but unfortunatelly not her son. She tried the suicide with her son. Problem is, we all need to look at it, understanding those mothers are suffering from depression and some personality disorder - yes, call them insane, because they're really insane, but not criminals at heart. Sometimes those "murders" are not premeditated: they simply happen and they can be cruel. Not too far from where Claudia is, there was an horrendous case of a woman who killed herself and took the life of her 3 children with the help of an electric knife. It was not premeditated. It was simply the act of someone who should have had psychological counselling but for some reason she hadn't and reached a point of rupture/madness. She was far from being a criminal. Lots of people opposed to the fact the children shouldn't be buried in the same grave with her mother (due to the criminal act), but psychiatrists tell this is the most insane "act of love" (I know it sounds strange), those sick women have to offer when they intend to kill themselves. (Let's not compare it with the man who kills his wife because he believes he is being betrayed and kills himself after - at bottom, it's also selfishness, but they're different scenarios).

One of the biggest problems about people with personality disorders, is that generally those who are close (like friends, relatives, boyfriends, girlfriends, spouses, etc.) do not have an idea about it. They believe it's all about character and ways of dealing with life. It's not! What happens is that we all have the tendency to ignore and/or to rationalize the behaviour from all those we know, i.e. "do not get offense because the person X has that tendency to have an ugly outburst, while dealing with frustration". This is generally how we all deal with it, trying to white what we clearly don't understand. It's a complicated matter, with an extense gray area to understand.

To have a fairly idea, it's necessary to read a lot about suicide. I can tell you based on suicide notes, those mothers who also take their children's life, do it, because they're sick (if they were not, they wouldn't commit suicide, in the first place). It's really their way of thinking it's kind of protection - sick thoughts, I agree, but that's what goes on their minds, unfortunatelly. It's a criminal act but they don't see it as a crime but as a liberation and a way of having them always around.

FSoares wrote:

Schnuffel wrote:

FSoares wrote:

I didn't the rest of the thread, but I can tell you based on numbers, that mothers who commit suicide have the tendency to also kill their own children. I believe it's some psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient, like saying "if I won't live, you as my child won't live too, and that way, I set you free from the problems of the world".

Psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient? A kind of, "I gave birth to you & brought you into this world so I have the right to remove you from it"? That's no disorder or psychological defence FSoares, its pure & simple, premeditated murder and if that mother was not in a lying in a morgue somewhere along with her poor daughter that's exactly what she should have been charged with. Sorry but I have very little sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an innocent child no matter who they are or what the circumstances because children are not possessions that we can just dispose of.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, Schnuffel. However, not so many months ago, I had the chance to hear exactly that, from a mother who was saved from drowning, but unfortunatelly not her son. She tried the suicide with her son. Problem is, we all need to look at it, understanding those mothers are suffering from depression and some personality disorder - yes, call them insane, because they're really insane, but not criminals at heart. Sometimes those "murders" are not premeditated: they simply happen and they can be cruel. Not too far from where Claudia is, there was an horrendous case of a woman who killed herself and took the life of her 3 children with the help of an electric knife. It was not premeditated. It was simply the act of someone who should have had psychological counselling but for some reason she hadn't and reached a point of rupture/madness. She was far from being a criminal. Lots of people opposed to the fact the children shouldn't be buried in the same grave with her mother (due to the criminal act), but psychiatrists tell this is the most insane "act of love" (I know it sounds strange), those sick women have to offer when they intend to kill themselves. (Let's not compare it with the man who kills his wife because he believes he is being betrayed and kills himself after - at bottom, it's also selfishness, but they're different scenarios).

One of the biggest problems about people with personality disorders, is that generally those who are close (like friends, relatives, boyfriends, girlfriends, spouses, etc.) do not have an idea about it. They believe it's all about character and ways of dealing with life. It's not! What happens is that we all have the tendency to ignore and/or to rationalize the behaviour from all those we know, i.e. "do not get offense because the person X has that tendency to have an ugly outburst, while dealing with frustration". This is generally how we all deal with it, trying to white what we clearly don't understand. It's a complicated matter, with an extense gray area to understand.

To have a fairly idea, it's necessary to read a lot about suicide. I can tell you based on suicide notes, those mothers who also take their children's life, do it, because they're sick (if they were not, they wouldn't commit suicide, in the first place). It's really their way of thinking it's kind of protection - sick thoughts, I agree, but that's what goes on their minds, unfortunatelly. It's a criminal act but they don't see it as a crime but as a liberation and a way of having them always around.

I knew of a mother who had a son with some health problems. Not very serious health problems for us the so called 'sane' people, but we all know how 'normal' mothers worry about their children. To make a long story short, that mother became more and more unstable. Everybody tried to explain it saying that she was worried about her child so it was normal that she was feeling very low. She had no help or counselling and she ended up committing suicide and taking her son with her. In a letter she explained that she didn't want her boy to suffer and be in pain and then still die so she thought the best way out was to die and take her son with her. Her son's health problems weren't life threatening. He just needed to be followed and checked. And her death would have also been preventable if she had had professional help.

ETA: I know about the case you mentioned. Incredibly sad.

Claudia79 wrote:

FSoares wrote:

Schnuffel wrote:

FSoares wrote:

I didn't the rest of the thread, but I can tell you based on numbers, that mothers who commit suicide have the tendency to also kill their own children. I believe it's some psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient, like saying "if I won't live, you as my child won't live too, and that way, I set you free from the problems of the world".

Psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient? A kind of, "I gave birth to you & brought you into this world so I have the right to remove you from it"? That's no disorder or psychological defence FSoares, its pure & simple, premeditated murder and if that mother was not in a lying in a morgue somewhere along with her poor daughter that's exactly what she should have been charged with. Sorry but I have very little sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an innocent child no matter who they are or what the circumstances because children are not possessions that we can just dispose of.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, Schnuffel. However, not so many months ago, I had the chance to hear exactly that, from a mother who was saved from drowning, but unfortunatelly not her son. She tried the suicide with her son. Problem is, we all need to look at it, understanding those mothers are suffering from depression and some personality disorder - yes, call them insane, because they're really insane, but not criminals at heart. Sometimes those "murders" are not premeditated: they simply happen and they can be cruel. Not too far from where Claudia is, there was an horrendous case of a woman who killed herself and took the life of her 3 children with the help of an electric knife. It was not premeditated. It was simply the act of someone who should have had psychological counselling but for some reason she hadn't and reached a point of rupture/madness. She was far from being a criminal. Lots of people opposed to the fact the children shouldn't be buried in the same grave with her mother (due to the criminal act), but psychiatrists tell this is the most insane "act of love" (I know it sounds strange), those sick women have to offer when they intend to kill themselves. (Let's not compare it with the man who kills his wife because he believes he is being betrayed and kills himself after - at bottom, it's also selfishness, but they're different scenarios).

One of the biggest problems about people with personality disorders, is that generally those who are close (like friends, relatives, boyfriends, girlfriends, spouses, etc.) do not have an idea about it. They believe it's all about character and ways of dealing with life. It's not! What happens is that we all have the tendency to ignore and/or to rationalize the behaviour from all those we know, i.e. "do not get offense because the person X has that tendency to have an ugly outburst, while dealing with frustration". This is generally how we all deal with it, trying to white what we clearly don't understand. It's a complicated matter, with an extense gray area to understand.

To have a fairly idea, it's necessary to read a lot about suicide. I can tell you based on suicide notes, those mothers who also take their children's life, do it, because they're sick (if they were not, they wouldn't commit suicide, in the first place). It's really their way of thinking it's kind of protection - sick thoughts, I agree, but that's what goes on their minds, unfortunatelly. It's a criminal act but they don't see it as a crime but as a liberation and a way of having them always around.

I knew of a mother who had a son with some health problems. Not very serious health problems for us the so called 'sane' people, but we all know how 'normal' mothers worry about their children. To make a long story short, that mother became more and more unstable. Everybody tried to explain it saying that she was worried about her child so it was normal that she was feeling very low. She had no help or counselling and she ended up committing suicide and taking her son with her. In a letter she explained that she didn't want her boy to suffer and be in pain and then still die so she thought the best way out was to die and take her son with her. Her son's health problems weren't life threatening. He just needed to be followed and checked. And her death would have also been preventable if she had had professional help.

ETA: I know about the case you mentioned. Incredibly sad.

The case I've mentioned may become a classic due to the contradiction of love-affection/violence-torture.
But that's exactly how things happen. The part quoted in bold, says it all, unfortunatelly. :-(

FSoares wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

FSoares wrote:

Schnuffel wrote:

FSoares wrote:

I didn't the rest of the thread, but I can tell you based on numbers, that mothers who commit suicide have the tendency to also kill their own children. I believe it's some psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient, like saying "if I won't live, you as my child won't live too, and that way, I set you free from the problems of the world".

Psychological defense (disorder) that runs on their subconscient? A kind of, "I gave birth to you & brought you into this world so I have the right to remove you from it"? That's no disorder or psychological defence FSoares, its pure & simple, premeditated murder and if that mother was not in a lying in a morgue somewhere along with her poor daughter that's exactly what she should have been charged with. Sorry but I have very little sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an innocent child no matter who they are or what the circumstances because children are not possessions that we can just dispose of.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, Schnuffel. However, not so many months ago, I had the chance to hear exactly that, from a mother who was saved from drowning, but unfortunatelly not her son. She tried the suicide with her son. Problem is, we all need to look at it, understanding those mothers are suffering from depression and some personality disorder - yes, call them insane, because they're really insane, but not criminals at heart. Sometimes those "murders" are not premeditated: they simply happen and they can be cruel. Not too far from where Claudia is, there was an horrendous case of a woman who killed herself and took the life of her 3 children with the help of an electric knife. It was not premeditated. It was simply the act of someone who should have had psychological counselling but for some reason she hadn't and reached a point of rupture/madness. She was far from being a criminal. Lots of people opposed to the fact the children shouldn't be buried in the same grave with her mother (due to the criminal act), but psychiatrists tell this is the most insane "act of love" (I know it sounds strange), those sick women have to offer when they intend to kill themselves. (Let's not compare it with the man who kills his wife because he believes he is being betrayed and kills himself after - at bottom, it's also selfishness, but they're different scenarios).

One of the biggest problems about people with personality disorders, is that generally those who are close (like friends, relatives, boyfriends, girlfriends, spouses, etc.) do not have an idea about it. They believe it's all about character and ways of dealing with life. It's not! What happens is that we all have the tendency to ignore and/or to rationalize the behaviour from all those we know, i.e. "do not get offense because the person X has that tendency to have an ugly outburst, while dealing with frustration". This is generally how we all deal with it, trying to white what we clearly don't understand. It's a complicated matter, with an extense gray area to understand.

To have a fairly idea, it's necessary to read a lot about suicide. I can tell you based on suicide notes, those mothers who also take their children's life, do it, because they're sick (if they were not, they wouldn't commit suicide, in the first place). It's really their way of thinking it's kind of protection - sick thoughts, I agree, but that's what goes on their minds, unfortunatelly. It's a criminal act but they don't see it as a crime but as a liberation and a way of having them always around.

I knew of a mother who had a son with some health problems. Not very serious health problems for us the so called 'sane' people, but we all know how 'normal' mothers worry about their children. To make a long story short, that mother became more and more unstable. Everybody tried to explain it saying that she was worried about her child so it was normal that she was feeling very low. She had no help or counselling and she ended up committing suicide and taking her son with her. In a letter she explained that she didn't want her boy to suffer and be in pain and then still die so she thought the best way out was to die and take her son with her. Her son's health problems weren't life threatening. He just needed to be followed and checked. And her death would have also been preventable if she had had professional help.

ETA: I know about the case you mentioned. Incredibly sad.

The case I've mentioned may become a classic due to the contradiction of love-affection/violence-torture.
But that's exactly how things happen. The part quoted in bold, says it all, unfortunatelly. :-(

Exactly. Sadly.