MOODY"S CUTS PORTUGAL"S CREDIT RATING

Moody"s has cut Portugal"s credit rating to JUNK, on a par with Bangladesh and El Salvador. Fears that Ireland and Italy will follow suit. Now France and
Germany are saying Investors should not take any notice of these Credit Agencies !!!!! What about the other Members of the EC, shouldn"t they have a say in this ?

Several experts are suggesting these Countries should default rather than borrow money ad infinitum .

It really is getting very serious now and there is a limit tiwhat the ECB will accept.

European Stocks are falling fast on fears of a contagion over the debt crisis spreading, Italy being the latest. Euro dropping fast, money being
invested in Swiss Franc, U.S. Dollar Chinese yuan.

Jesus, Italy now, I agree Panda things are looking bad!!!!!!

buildersbum wrote:Jesus, Italy now, I agree Panda things are looking bad!!!!!!

Morning buildersbum, YES, the EC is convening another meeting this morning. If you remember, we joined a "Common Market" which morphed into
the EC which has not had their Accounts audited for Years.!!! Now every Country in the EC has two tiers of Government to pay for, their own and
MEPs. Add to this the EC deciding on the Laws each Country must abide by and it was never going to work. You can"t have a one currency fits all,
Europe is not the U.S..

BTW Cisco Systems is axing 10,000 jobs, the Democrats and Republicans still can"t agree on how to manage the crisis so the once mighty U.S. is also
in crisis. I think we had better learn how to make fires by rubbing sticks and go back to the barter system.

It seems that's what Germany and France need to see this happen to understand the power of the markets and the rating agencies. Until recently they could say the fault was with those small incompetent countries which weren't able to govern themselves. Anxious to see what they're gonna say when the powerful start falling. Maybe then they'll grow a pair and put a stop to this shame.

Claudia79 wrote:It seems that's what Germany and France need to see this happen to understand the power of the markets and the rating agencies. Until recently they could say the fault was with those small incompetent countries which weren't able to govern themselves. Anxious to see what they're gonna say when the powerful start falling. Maybe then they'll grow a pair and put a stop to this shame.

Everyone knows France and Germany run the EC but the Loans to Ireland Portugal and now Italy carry such huge interest rates that it is just adding to the problem.!!1 the U.S., Britain and even China are having Financial problems, but maybe it is better that these European Countries default now, rather
than wait until the malaise affects all European Countries. Note how Germany is paying 4.5% on their loan from the ECB, yet Ireland, Portugal and now
Italy are paying 12.5%.

Panda wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:It seems that's what Germany and France need to see this happen to understand the power of the markets and the rating agencies. Until recently they could say the fault was with those small incompetent countries which weren't able to govern themselves. Anxious to see what they're gonna say when the powerful start falling. Maybe then they'll grow a pair and put a stop to this shame.

Everyone knows France and Germany run the EC but the Loans to Ireland Portugal and now Italy carry such huge interest rates that it is just adding to the problem.!!1 the U.S., Britain and even China are having Financial problems, but maybe it is better that these European Countries default now, rather
than wait until the malaise affects all European Countries. Note how Germany is paying 4.5% on their loan from the ECB, yet Ireland, Portugal and now
Italy are paying 12.5%.

Until one of the powerful falls (and it may happen and faster than many may think) no one will put an end to this farce and criminal economical speculation. When one of the powerful is a true target (and they are starting to talk about France in such a way) things will change. Note yesterday's emergency meeting. When it was only Ireland, Greece and Portugal at risk, no one gave a damn.

Claudia79 wrote:

Panda wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:It seems that's what Germany and France need to see this happen to understand the power of the markets and the rating agencies. Until recently they could say the fault was with those small incompetent countries which weren't able to govern themselves. Anxious to see what they're gonna say when the powerful start falling. Maybe then they'll grow a pair and put a stop to this shame.

Everyone knows France and Germany run the EC but the Loans to Ireland Portugal and now Italy carry such huge interest rates that it is just adding to the problem.!!1 the U.S., Britain and even China are having Financial problems, but maybe it is better that these European Countries default now, rather
than wait until the malaise affects all European Countries. Note how Germany is paying 4.5% on their loan from the ECB, yet Ireland, Portugal and now
Italy are paying 12.5%.

Until one of the powerful falls (and it may happen and faster than many may think) no one will put an end to this farce and criminal economical speculation. When one of the powerful is a true target (and they are starting to talk about France in such a way) things will change. Note yesterday's emergency meeting. When it was only Ireland, Greece and Portugal at risk, no one gave a damn.

Belgium is another potential , but the cronyism between France and Germany who are working for vested interests will have to be addressed. George
Soros, who famously made £1 million by buying Currency when Britain went through a Crisis twenty years ago is saying, let these Countries Default
all this patching up is adding to their problems . It"s no good trying to put a sticking plaster on a wound which requires a bandage, the only people
benefitting from this are those wealthy sharks looking to buy these Countries assets cheap.

Panda wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

Panda wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:It seems that's what Germany and France need to see this happen to understand the power of the markets and the rating agencies. Until recently they could say the fault was with those small incompetent countries which weren't able to govern themselves. Anxious to see what they're gonna say when the powerful start falling. Maybe then they'll grow a pair and put a stop to this shame.

Everyone knows France and Germany run the EC but the Loans to Ireland Portugal and now Italy carry such huge interest rates that it is just adding to the problem.!!1 the U.S., Britain and even China are having Financial problems, but maybe it is better that these European Countries default now, rather
than wait until the malaise affects all European Countries. Note how Germany is paying 4.5% on their loan from the ECB, yet Ireland, Portugal and now
Italy are paying 12.5%.

Until one of the powerful falls (and it may happen and faster than many may think) no one will put an end to this farce and criminal economical speculation. When one of the powerful is a true target (and they are starting to talk about France in such a way) things will change. Note yesterday's emergency meeting. When it was only Ireland, Greece and Portugal at risk, no one gave a damn.

Belgium is another potential , but the cronyism between France and Germany who are working for vested interests will have to be addressed. George
Soros, who famously made £1 million by buying Currency when Britain went through a Crisis twenty years ago is saying, let these Countries Default
all this patching up is adding to their problems . It"s no good trying to put a sticking plaster on a wound which requires a bandage, the only people
benefitting from this are those wealthy sharks looking to buy these Countries assets cheap.

I still think that a solution will be found when one of the powerful countries is at stake. Until recently they saw this not as an European/World problem but as a problem of the small irresponsible ungovernable countries. That has changed this week.

Claudia, Spain is being toted as another casualty. Interestingly, a Former Editor of the Financial times has just been interviewed. He says Germany is
quite mean as a Country and thinks bailing out these Countries who have been profligate is not an option the German Taxpayer will tolerate. The best
option is to let these economically weak Countries default and go back to their own Currency and to stop trying to make the Euro a World Currency.

There would be a nucleus of Foreign Countries who would remain in the Euro which would then be used as a reserve Currency around the World. This
to me makes sense , painful in the beginning but it would stop the default Countries borrowing even more money which would take two generations to pay off.

Panda wrote:Claudia, Spain is being toted as another casualty. Interestingly, a Former Editor of the Financial times has just been interviewed. He says Germany is
quite mean as a Country and thinks bailing out these Countries who have been profligate is not an option the German Taxpayer will tolerate. The best
option is to let these economically weak Countries default and go back to their own Currency and to stop trying to make the Euro a World Currency.

There would be a nucleus of Foreign Countries who would remain in the Euro which would then be used as a reserve Currency around the World. This
to me makes sense , painful in the beginning but it would stop the default Countries borrowing even more money which would take two generations to pay off.

Couldn't disagree more. After those which are now considered economically weak countries, there will be more. Did anyone France an economic weak country until very recently? Now there are already rumour about France. It will take a giant to fall until people realise the true nature of this crisis: pure speculation. Nothing more, nothing less. The world's economy as we know it, has no future.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

Claudia79 wrote:First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

That"s a great poem Claudia and very true. It"s also true that Greece lied about it"s indebtedness when it asked to join the Union. I know what you are
saying, but the survival of the fittest, even in the animal Kingdom is the name of the Game. Germany, as always, is doing very well, I don"t know
about France, or why Portugal is in financial difficulty, but Spain spent massive amounts on development and like Ireland , when times got hard found
they had nothing in Reserve.

Wouldn"t you rather see these Countries opt out NOW before the Bailiffs come in and buy up all the countries assets for a song? Not have to abide
by EU rules which dictate what they can grow and what they can"t, bound by a EU Judicial system , not having to pay for Portugese MEP"s who do
very little yet are highly paid, claim huge expenses and leave Germany and France to run Europe because they can"t be bothered to stand up for their
own Country.

Panda wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

That"s a great poem Claudia and very true. It"s also true that Greece lied about it"s indebtedness when it asked to join the Union. I know what you are
saying, but the survival of the fittest, even in the animal Kingdom is the name of the Game. Germany, as always, is doing very well, I don"t know
about France, or why Portugal is in financial difficulty, but Spain spent massive amounts on development and like Ireland , when times got hard found
they had nothing in Reserve.

Wouldn"t you rather see these Countries opt out NOW before the Bailiffs come in and buy up all the countries assets for a song? Not have to abide
by EU rules which dictate what they can grow and what they can"t, bound by a EU Judicial system , not having to pay for Portugese MEP"s who do
very little yet are highly paid, claim huge expenses and leave Germany and France to run Europe because they can"t be bothered to stand up for their
own Country.

No, simply because I don't believe for one second that is the answer. I believe that if that happened, soon others would be targeted. One after the other after the other until there's nothing left. And to prove my point a bit, just read that Mr Berlusconi just said that this crisis is threatening everybody and not only Italy. Interestingly, until they started attacking Italy I didn't hear him speak out. See what I mean? It's like a domino thing. If there isn't a stop to this, one after the other, after the other until the giants fall too and realise that they are now the weak countries.

Are you so enamoured of the EU that you don"t want to leave it Claudia?

Panda wrote:Are you so enamoured of the EU that you don"t want to leave it Claudia?

Moi? No. Not just not too eager to see speculators destroy Europesn economies and get filthy rich in the process. But that's just me.

ETA: And I can even be considered as a citizen of one of the giants being born in Germany...

Claudia79 wrote:

Panda wrote:Are you so enamoured of the EU that you don"t want to leave it Claudia?

Moi? No. Not just not too eager to see speculators destroy Europesn economies and get filthy rich in the process. But that's just me.

ETA: And I can even be considered as a citizen of one of the giants being born in Germany...

I subscribe to a Fortnightly e-mail Magazine about what is going on in the EU, did you know the EU Accounts havn"t been signed off by Auditors for years
because they can"t reconcile the figures, did you know MEP"s walk away with a huge Pension for doing very little and only work a Five day week ?
Had the EU developed into a Free Trade area with a Defence Army that would have been fine . I don"t know about Portugal but British Farmers are
being paid to leave their fields fallow because of over production of food, criminal when so many in the World are starving.

I watched a News Report a couple of weeks ago where the Vultures are trying to buy up at bargain basement prices, Greek Airlines, Railways ,
Airports Water etc, this is why the Greeks have been protesting so much. It happened in Britain during Maggie Thatcher"s reign, I would hate to see it happen to Portugal and other Countries.

Panda wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

Panda wrote:Are you so enamoured of the EU that you don"t want to leave it Claudia?

Moi? No. Not just not too eager to see speculators destroy Europesn economies and get filthy rich in the process. But that's just me.

ETA: And I can even be considered as a citizen of one of the giants being born in Germany...

I subscribe to a Fortnightly e-mail Magazine about what is going on in the EU, did you know the EU Accounts havn"t been signed off by Auditors for years
because they can"t reconcile the figures, did you know MEP"s walk away with a huge Pension for doing very little and only work a Five day week ?
Had the EU developed into a Free Trade area with a Defence Army that would have been fine . I don"t know about Portugal but British Farmers are
being paid to leave their fields fallow because of over production of food, criminal when so many in the World are starving.

I watched a News Report a couple of weeks ago where the Vultures are trying to buy up at bargain basement prices, Greek Airlines, Railways ,
Airports Water etc, this is why the Greeks have been protesting so much. It happened in Britain during Maggie Thatcher"s reign, I would hate to see it happen to Portugal and other Countries.

And does any of this contradict what I've been saying? Of course there are problems. And they have to be solved. Through tougher legislation, especially, I think. Can't see how the solution to any of them is caving in to the speculators. Fight them, not let them win. And that is what Europe has been doing. Ignoring the speculators and let them get on with their business. At least until the targets were only Ireland, Greece and Portugal which they considered 'expendable'. Now that are scared because they are finally realising that it's not just the expendable ones on the line. Now that rumours have started about Spain, Belgium, Italy and even France you see them running around like headless chickens in urgency meetings. This is not just about the Euro. There's a lot more at stake. Look at the US.

Touched by this recently acquired confidence. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the bigger boys being now on the line.


Statement by Herman Van Rompuy
President of the European Council
following his meeting with Pedro Passos Coelho
Prime Minister of Portugal
Boa tarde a todos (Good afternoon to all)
Today, after meeting President Cavaco Silva, Prime Minister Passos Coelho and I had a
very constructive meeting, mainly focused on the economic situation in Portugal and the
euro area at large.
I expressed my full support and deep admiration for the efforts Portugal and its citizens are
undertaking.
The new government, and Prime Minister Passos Coelho in particular, enjoys a very strong
popular mandate for change. Its programme of reforms for the next 4 years goes to the
heart of the issues in Portugal. The fact that 85% of the deputies in the National Assembly
represent parties that have signed up to the reforms is a proof of maturity of the Portuguese
people and leaders. I want to pay a special tribute to that. This is what matters to me, not so
much what rating agencies may say.
I have no doubt that with effort, time and support, Portugal will turn the corner. More than
once in the recent past the Portuguese people have demonstrated their resilience and their
capacity to overcome difficulties. No doubt this time it will be the same again.
Some of those reforms are unpopular; in Portugal and elsewhere; I'm fully aware of it. Yet
they are necessary, and not just for the sake of cutting deficits, but in order to preserve our
social models, to be able to guarantee our welfare and jobs for our children. It is to save the
welfare state, not to undermine it.
Those reforms are needed not only because of the stability of the eurozone but for and
foremost for national reasons, in order to preserve the future.
The best way out of the crisis and to fight unemployment is to raise economic growth by
regaining competitiveness. And competitiveness is more than cutting costs and wages. It is
also about better services, better qualified people, and a more attractive environment for
firms to invest and innovate.
The immediate priority is to ensure the full implementation of the measures in the
government's programme. This is key to restore investor's confidence and Portugal's selfassurance. And that's why my message today is to encourage the Government and the
Portuguese people to continue with determination and unity in the path for change.
This crisis has revealed how interdependent the countries in the eurozone are. But at the
same time it is extremely important to differentiate across countries. Each country is
different, and the challenges faced by Portugal are not the same as those faced by Greece.
We also discussed the overall situation in the euro area. I am fully aware of the current
tensions in the debt markets, but let me be very clear that there is a very strong
commitment at the highest level to do whatever is necessary to safeguard financial
stability.
Proposals of the Eurogroup on measures that will resist contagion risk in the euro area are
urgently needed.
I am in close contact with the Presidents of the Commission, the European Central Bank
and the Eurogroup.
I have not decided on a summit of the eurozone but I do not exclude it.
In the difficult time we are facing, we tend to forget that the euro is a stable and sound
currency with strong fundamentals compared to other currencies.
The average public deficit in the Eurozone is lower than in the US, the UK and Japan. The
overall level of public debt is also lower. Inflation has been below 2 percent for more than
a decade.
Most importantly, the economic recovery in the Eurozone as a whole is quite good, with
forecasts of overall economic growth close to 2 percent in 2011 and 2012. This helps
Portugal come back to higher growth rates too.
Let me end by saying once more that to cope with the crisis this country can build on the
strengths it has already shown in good times as in bad times: the spirit of entrepreneurship,
resilience and courage. No doubt it will be the same again.
Muito Obrigado. (Thank you)

socialism has finally run out of money.

I think Greece did not budget very well and keep within the guidelines, there was meant to be in the early days a GDP not exceeding 3%. Italy and
Spain breached this figure but were never penalised. This is the big problem , all Countries are not equal and I can understand Germany , a very
efficient Country , hard-working and doing well, not wanting to keep bailing out the more profligate Countries . The same is going to happen when
Croatia joins in a couple of week, it is a relatively poor Country and it would be wise to halt new Membership until these varying Economies are sorted.


Hammy, Welcome.........Socialism died a long time ago as did love thy Neighbour.

And the speculation continues. Moody's just cut Ireland's rating to junk. And so they will continue until they are stopped.

Claudia79 wrote:And the speculation continues. Moody's just cut Ireland's rating to junk. And so they will continue until they are stopped.

They are patching things but I"m not quite sure how this works. Italy has sold many Bonds today yielding 4.5% which on the face of it sounds
quite a reasonable interest, but then Italy has to take out Insurance to cover payment of these bonds , as you can guess, the Insurance is high so
what good is this for Italy?

All the ratings agencies have always been the guideline for Investors which is very useful , now, because they are lowering the grades for Greece, Ireland
Portugal and Italy will be next, the EU objects, quite ridiculous.They are quite happy to have a good rating Agency when they want to borrow , but when Moody"s tells it like it is the EU cries foul. If you were going to lend a large amount of money to a Country, wouldn"t you want to know the Country
was creditworthy?

Panda wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:And the speculation continues. Moody's just cut Ireland's rating to junk. And so they will continue until they are stopped.

They are patching things but I"m not quite sure how this works. Italy has sold many Bonds today yielding 4.5% which on the face of it sounds
quite a reasonable interest, but then Italy has to take out Insurance to cover payment of these bonds , as you can guess, the Insurance is high so
what good is this for Italy?

All the ratings agencies have always been the guideline for Investors which is very useful , now, because they are lowering the grades for Greece, Ireland
Portugal and Italy will be next, the EU objects, quite ridiculous.They are quite happy to have a good rating Agency when they want to borrow , but when Moody"s tells it like it is the EU cries foul. If you were going to lend a large amount of money to a Country, wouldn"t you want to know the Country
was creditworthy?

If it was truthful, yes. If it has interest in the destruction of the Euro (as is clearly the case), no. Not only is it a sham as it seems to me criminal. At least ethically and morally disgraceful. But I sense their time is coming. They're running out of expendable countries and will soon need to target others more 'popular'.

ETA: In fact, it is already happening. For the first time, the European Central Bank has publicly stated that the latest decisions by Moody's are to be ignored because they do not reflect the status of some of the economies and the way they are working hard to achieve the negotiated goals.

Panda wrote:...Socialism died a long time ago...

that's true but noone's told them yet and they continue to spend money they haven't got nor can repay back.