EC PRESIDENT CALLS URGENT MEETING FOR TOMORROW #2

AnnaEsse wrote:

Panda wrote:

Badboy wrote:IT IS BEING SAID IN THE NEW SCIENTIST THAT THE GREEK CRISIS COULD CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING BY CAUSING LESS TO BE SPEND ON TACKLING GLOBAL WARMING.

I don"t know about that Badboy, if this crisis spreads Worldwide people won"t have enough money to heat their homes so Global warming
will ease anyway. Apart from Europe, it"s spread to China, Japan, Australia, Canada U.S.A because of all the Bank interlending and of course
downturn in spending. Tesco and all the other Supermarkets have cut their prices which is helping the Consumer.

You took the words...Panda! I was just thinking as I made a cup of tea just then that if we can't afford to heat our homes because of the hikes in energy costs, that should help global warming somewhat!

Some analysts are likening this crisis to the depression of the thirties. I don"t know what caused that, but 80 years on times have changed considerably in that we now have a credit culture which allows us to buy when we want to, istead of waiting until we had saved enough
money. The throw away Society means we can use credit facilities to buy the latest IPod at over £200 which is merely a glorified toy.

It"s crunch time for the EU as G20 have given it"s leaders ONE WEEK to sort out it"s problems. Tim Geithner has made a list of what action
should be taken to avoid a World meltdown.

More substantial aid

Better interest rates

Better Capitalisation

Fiscal Union

It is becoming increasingly clear that while all the EU Countries have to give approval for action to be taken the fact that meetings between Leaders then their Parliaments slows down the decision making .

France has chosen Hollande , a Socialist Nominee for the Election next Year , who calls himself the "anti Sarkozy". It is thought Sarkozy and
Merkel, both up for re-election next year have one eye on holding on to their jobs rather than a full committment to the EU problems.

The riots in Rome resulted in 135 protesters injured and E1 million damage to properties. the 1 week deadline is serious, Canada suggests a
doubledip recession is imminent if the EU does not act decisively. Problem is, the EU Banks do not want to lend any more money to Greece and
Greece does not want to borrow anymore.

Olli Rehn, EC Economics Commissioner says there will be a plan completed by the week-end . EU Banks have already said they will boit accept
more than 21% write down of Greek debt but it is thought that 50% is necessary to allow Greece to try to pay its debt.

Money Markets have slashed loans to French Banks.


Another reason for tighter monitoring of ALL Banks, how come all these Banks passed the stress Test 2 years ago after the Lehmann debacle
yet now are on the verge of bankruptcy, not all because of Loans to Greece I"m sure.

Meanwhile, money is pouring out of Greece , rich people buying up Properties in London"s Expensive Areas . Is Greece really going to change
it"s Fiscal Policy? Strikes are planned for Wednesday and Thursday.

Panda wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

Panda wrote:

Badboy wrote:IT IS BEING SAID IN THE NEW SCIENTIST THAT THE GREEK CRISIS COULD CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING BY CAUSING LESS TO BE SPEND ON TACKLING GLOBAL WARMING.

I don"t know about that Badboy, if this crisis spreads Worldwide people won"t have enough money to heat their homes so Global warming
will ease anyway. Apart from Europe, it"s spread to China, Japan, Australia, Canada U.S.A because of all the Bank interlending and of course
downturn in spending. Tesco and all the other Supermarkets have cut their prices which is helping the Consumer.

You took the words...Panda! I was just thinking as I made a cup of tea just then that if we can't afford to heat our homes because of the hikes in energy costs, that should help global warming somewhat!

Some analysts are likening this crisis to the depression of the thirties. I don"t know what caused that, but 80 years on times have changed considerably in that we now have a credit culture which allows us to buy when we want to, istead of waiting until we had saved enough
money. The throw away Society means we can use credit facilities to buy the latest IPod at over £200 which is merely a glorified toy.

the depression of the 1930s appears to have been caused by a lack of confidence on day at the wall street stock exchange.

I don"t think it was just Investors selling their Shares.......the 1% rich kept all their Money Badboy!!!!! It looks as if Germany is not prepared to implement all Geithner"s proposals. the German Parliament will discuss tomorrow. I know Merkel is against a fiscal policy which means creating
Eurobonds and all EU Countries being responsible . The Euro is down again as are shares in the EU Countries and the Footsie.

IT IS BEING SAID IN THE GUARDIAN THAT OTHER BANKS(20?) IN GERMANY ETC,METHINKS, MIGHT NEED MORE HELP.
AT THIS RATE THERE WILL BE BAILING ALL THE BANKS OUT.

Badboy wrote:IT IS BEING SAID IN THE GUARDIAN THAT OTHER BANKS(20?) IN GERMANY ETC,METHINKS, MIGHT NEED MORE HELP.
AT THIS RATE THERE WILL BE BAILING ALL THE BANKS OUT.

We know the FSA have been remiss in not monitoring Banks activiies since the Nick Leeson scandal that forced private Bank Barings to close.

Gordon Brown should have let RBS and Northern Rock go bust instead of bailing them out, now more and more banks need financial Help.
Britain has a surfeit of Banks, especially now ATM machines and Internet Banking have evolved.

Badboy, the Stress Test intruduced in the wake of the Lehmnan disaster obviously was not strict enough nor inspected independently. All these European Banks might have been more circumspect .

Ed Conway....sky news 17/10/11

When I was in Washington a few weeks ago I asked a senior
International Monetary Fund official whether we should be worried about
the Fund running out of money now we seemed to be slipping towards
another momentous economic crisis.
“Listen,” he replied. “I
wouldn’t be too worried about that: what matters far more from our
perspective is telling the world we are on the brink of catastrophe.”
In
a sense, then, it was a little surprising that one of the focal points
of the weekend’s G20 finance ministers’ summit in Paris was the question
of pumping more money into the IMF’s coffers to give it firepower for the next stage of the crisis.
I’m
a little sceptical about the significance of this plan. First off
because I suspect it was fixated on over the weekend by both officials
and the media because the G20 didn’t have that much of substance to say.
What matters at the moment is what the European leaders themselves
manage to cook up to tackle the euro crisis – something we’ll learn more
about in next weekend’s Brussels summit. The G20 itself has only four
euro members so lacks the mandate to do more than encourage Europe to
stop dithering (and happily that now looks like having happened) and
talk on an international scale- so the IMF boost was a convenient line
that was actually relevant to the G20 platform.
However, as the
Chancellor, George Osborne, pointed out in Paris, it’s all fair and well
calling for the IMF to be given more money, but the G20 already agreed
to essentially double the Fund’s firepower at the 2009 London summit
(remember that?) – and the member states have so far only delivered 25%
of this extra cash (Britain is a notable exception, having ratified its
commitment). Promising more money now is almost beside the point.
Finally,
it’s not clear that the IMF is in a funding emergency right now. It has
enough cash to tackle further Eurozone strains and problems in the
developing world. It doesn’t have enough cash to protect Spain or Italy,
but then that’s an issue for the euro members anyway.
All the
same, let’s imagine for a moment that more money will indeed be needed
for the IMF – and notwithstanding all of the above, I wouldn’t rule it
out. Should we, as British taxpayers, be worried? Certainly, some Tory
MPs already seem to be panicking
[link is to FT, sub required], and others are warning about the folly
of ponying up our own cash when it is clearly in such short supply.
However,
giving money to the IMF doesn’t imply there will be less of it left for
spending on our own troubled economy – or indeed that Britain need
slide further into debt to satisfy the international community’s need
for support. To understand why, consider how we provide cash to the
Fund. The money doesn’t actually come out of the general pot used by the
Government to pay for current spending, but out of Britain’s foreign
reserves – an alternative pot which also includes gold and foreign
currency assets. The purpose of this account is essentially to provide a
buffer to protect Britain against fluctuations in international
currency movements – although it’s rarely used for currency intervention
these days (the last time was following the Japanese earthquake earlier
this year when all major economies intervened to help stabilise the
yen).
It’s from this, Britain’s international bank account, that
the IMF money comes – and the contribution was increased, following the
London Summit, from approximately £10.7bn to £20.2bn. However, this is
not a donation, but a commitment to lend cash if and when the IMF needs
it. By the end of March, the IMF had called on just £3.3bn of our quota
to help contribute to its various bail-outs around the world.
But,
to be clear, that’s not £3.3bn that we could have spent on hospitals,
road-building or tax cuts, because it is a loan rather than a spending
spree. It is only “spent” as opposed to invested if the IMF doesn’t get
repaid, and an IMF donor has never not been repaid in history.
So
bear this in mind when you hear horror stories about Britain being under
threat of having to contribute more to the global bail-out through the
IMF. Earlier this year, George Osborne borrowed a further £6bn to put
into the international reserves precisely to leave Britain prepared to
lend more cash to the IMF. But because that debt was issued to buy an
asset – a claim on an IMF loan – it will not increase Britain’s
indebtedness.
None of this is to say that the debate over putting
more money into the IMF is irrelevant – just that we should treat it
quite differently from, say, the barbed question of Britain’s
international aid budget.

http://www.presseurop.eu/en

A very long but interesting Article about the EU.

Markets Turbulent Amid G20 Eurozone Pressure

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• 
  
• 3 Comments
  

7:56pm UK, Monday October 17, 2011




Markets were turbulent across Europe after G20 finance chiefs gave
eurozone leaders less than a week to reach an agreement over the debt
crisis.







Demonstrators blame bankers for the global financial crisis




The eurozone now has a deadline of October 23 to finalise
details of "a comprehensive plan" to recapitalise its banks, resolve the
Greek debt crisis and increase its rescue fund.


The European financial stability facility (EFSF) is worth €440bn, but
many economists believe the fund needs to be extended to around €2trn
to reassure investors that banks would survive defaults by indebted
countries such as Greece and Italy.


UK Chancellor George Osborne said eurozone leaders must now take "impressive" action to get a grip on the crisis.


Shareprices were up sharply at the start of the day and rose to a
10-week high in response to the news an agreement on the debt crisis may
be close and the EFSF fund may be increased.







Sarkozy and Merkel need to come to an agreement this week





But they dipped after Germany's Finance Minister suggested that
anyone expecting a definitive solution to the sovereign debt crisis to
come out of this weekend's EU Summit is likely to be disappointed.


Wolfgang Schaeuble said at a conference in London that Germany would
not spend its way out of the crisis and warned there were "limits to
eurozone solidarity".


The FTSE 100 closed down 0.5%, the DAX dipped by 1.8% and the CAC was also down, by 1.6%.








FTSE 100 1-Day Chart







As leaders of the top 20 economies gathered in Paris on October 15, anti-capitalist protests broke out around the world.


Those demonstrating are angry about the bank bail-outs, putting more pressure on eurozone leaders.


France's President Sarkozy and German Chancellor Merkel now have less
than a week of frantic negotiation to resolve their key differences.

One
of the more unexpected features of the eurozone crisis has been that it
has taught us all kinds of things we didn't know, or indeed think we
wanted to know, about obscure European political systems.

Read Ed Conway's blog

Don't Panic About Giving More Money To The IMF

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Don't
Panic About Giving More Money To The IMF


7, 2011 6:01 AM





When I was in Washington a few weeks ago I asked a senior International
Monetary Fund official whether we should be worried about the Fund running out
of money now we seemed to be slipping towards another momentous economic
crisis.

“Listen,” he replied. “I wouldn’t be too worried about that: what matters far
more from our perspective is telling the world we are on the brink of
catastrophe.”

In a sense, then, it was a little surprising that one of the focal points of
the weekend’s G20 finance ministers’ summit in Paris was the question of pumping more money into the IMF’s coffers to give it firepower
for the next stage of the crisis.
I’m a little sceptical about the
significance of this plan. First off because I suspect it was fixated on over
the weekend by both officials and the media because the G20 didn’t have that
much of substance to say. What matters at the moment is what the European
leaders themselves manage to cook up to tackle the euro crisis – something we’ll
learn more about in next weekend’s Brussels summit. The G20 itself has only four
euro members so lacks the mandate to do more than encourage Europe to stop
dithering (and happily that now looks like having happened) and talk on an
international scale- so the IMF boost was a convenient line that was actually
relevant to the G20 platform.

However, as the Chancellor, George Osborne, pointed out in Paris, it’s all
fair and well calling for the IMF to be given more money, but the G20 already
agreed to essentially double the Fund’s firepower at the 2009 London summit
(remember that?) – and the member states have so far only delivered 25% of this
extra cash (Britain is a notable exception, having ratified its commitment).
Promising more money now is almost beside the point.

Finally, it’s not clear that the IMF is in a funding emergency right now. It
has enough cash to tackle further Eurozone strains and problems in the
developing world. It doesn’t have enough cash to protect Spain or Italy, but
then that’s an issue for the euro members anyway.

All the same, let’s imagine for a moment that more money will indeed be
needed for the IMF – and notwithstanding all of the above, I wouldn’t rule it
out. Should we, as British taxpayers, be worried? Certainly, some Tory MPs already seem to be panicking [link is to FT, sub required], and
others are warning about the folly of ponying up our own cash when it is clearly
in such short supply.

However, giving money to the IMF doesn’t imply there will be less of it left
for spending on our own troubled economy – or indeed that Britain need slide
further into debt to satisfy the international community’s need for support. To
understand why, consider how we provide cash to the Fund. The money doesn’t
actually come out of the general pot used by the Government to pay for current
spending, but out of Britain’s foreign reserves – an alternative pot which also
includes gold and foreign currency assets. The purpose of this account is
essentially to provide a buffer to protect Britain against fluctuations in
international currency movements – although it’s rarely used for currency
intervention these days (the last time was following the Japanese earthquake
earlier this year when all major economies intervened to help stabilise the
yen).

It’s from this, Britain’s international bank account, that the IMF money
comes – and the contribution was increased, following the London Summit, from
approximately £10.7bn to £20.2bn. However, this is not a donation, but a
commitment to lend cash if and when the IMF needs it. By the end of March, the
IMF had called on just £3.3bn of our quota to help contribute to its various
bail-outs around the world.

But, to be clear, that’s not £3.3bn that we could have spent on hospitals,
road-building or tax cuts, because it is a loan rather than a spending spree. It
is only “spent” as opposed to invested if the IMF doesn’t get repaid, and an IMF
donor has never not been repaid in history.

So bear this in mind when you hear horror stories about Britain being under
threat of having to contribute more to the global bail-out through the IMF.
Earlier this year, George Osborne borrowed a further £6bn to put into the
international reserves precisely to leave Britain prepared to lend more cash to
the IMF. But because that debt was issued to buy an asset – a claim on an IMF
loan – it will not increase Britain’s indebtedness.

None of this is to say that the debate over putting more money into the IMF
is irrelevant – just that we should treat it quite differently from, say, the
barbed question of Britain’s international aid budget.

The 3 major French Banks have lost significant share value over the last 3 days and Moodys says they are in danger of losing their triple A
rating because of France"s obligation to help finance Greece.

Germany has said it will not be able to meet the 7 day deadline because there are so many details to settle. It is also un a huff because of G20
intervention.

It is almost 2 years since the Greek problem became public and still no resolution . There are 7,000 Banks in Europe and it is possible more Banks will require bailouts.

the Banks lend more to big companies when it should be lending to small companies to increase the labour force. Fewer Banks needed and
Political decisions will have to be made .

India and Brazil call on the EU to make a firm decision about Greece.

The President of Greece, Papandreou has said it will be a struggle to stop a default.The EU knows it as well judging by the protest marches
in Greece, so why must the EU prolong the agony and lose face with the rest of the World over it"s handling of the problem. Eighteen Months
is a long time.

Merkel says everything must be done to avoid contagion.

Merkel tells Lawmakers the EU Meeting on Sunday will not be final step.........so what happened to the assurance that the plan agreed by
Merkel amnd Sarkozy would be revealed?

There is a crisis of confidence in Germany, Scandinavian Bank Customers are demanding to know of any problems with their Banks.

Ireland may seek to transfer the cost of it"s rescue package of Allied Irish Banks to the EU. At the moment it is the only Country which is
managing it"s debt very well and expected to be the first Country not to require a further bail-out.

Spain has it"s rating cut by Moodys to A1 but the risk of default is remote.

Greece is virtually at a standstill at the start of the 48 hr strike. Flights cancelled until mid-day, Cargo ships affected as are Cruise Ships,
and the Country is paralyzed. The Goverment considering bringing in the Army and Greek Sovereignty is at risk. The Unions are angry at
the new Labour Reforms . The Greek debt is currently E360 Billion , divided between the IMF, ECB and Eurozone.

Italian Banks ratings slashed by Standard and Poors.

EU Banks to shrink by $1 trillion, but who will want to buy their debts?

What a b****y mess, Greece should have been allowed to default much sooner, the Eurozone will take a long time to recover from this.

One respected analyst is suggesting that Greece will lose part of it"s Sovereignty because it cannot meet it"s austerity programme. The EU
would be involved in the budget and other measures. The threat of losing Union Power is the reason for thr current strike.......imagine reaction if the Greeks were told they had to accept EU rules.

The Centre of Athens is like a ghost town , a protest march to take place later on today. A previous Finance Minister has said it is the
ineffectual Government responsible.

Panda wrote:Spain has it"s rating cut by Moodys to A1 but the risk of default is remote.

Greece is virtually at a standstill at the start of the 48 hr strike. Flights cancelled until mid-day, Cargo ships affected as are Cruise Ships,
and the Country is paralyzed. The Goverment considering bringing in the Army and Greek Sovereignty is at risk. The Unions are angry at
the new Labour Reforms . The Greek debt is currently E360 Billion , divided between the IMF, ECB and Eurozone.

Italian Banks ratings slashed by Standard and Poors.

EU Banks to shrink by $1 trillion, but who will want to buy their debts?

What a b****y mess, Greece should have been allowed to default much sooner, the Eurozone will take a long time to recover from this.

Hi Panda, totally agree with you. Not sure what good they think these strikes will do...when will they get the message they are broke, in the sh*t, there is NO money!

Hi Angelina,

It"s crazy and who is to say the 17 Countries will all vote in favour?

An Economic Adviser to one of the Banks thinks it is folly to lend more money to a Country that is virtually broke and to ringfence Italy and
France......what about Ireland, Portugal Spain? He suggested the cure was tp help these Countries Export more etc rather than throw
more money after bad.

Apparently one of the decisions taken between France and Germany have agreed a E1 Trillion injection for possible capitalisation.

14 Italian Banks downgraded, one being the 3rd largest, Dexia, the Belgian Bank still having problems.

One U.S. Economist says whether Governments accept it or not, we are in recession and if Britain ever lost it"s AAA rating, there would really
be trouble.!! He also said Economists should rule Countries, not Politicians.

Angela Merkel says "we shall not allow the Euro to fail and that the Euro Treaty changes are not Taboo". Oh yes Angela, you can allow it
when it suits you, but Britain was not allowed to halt the influx of Immigants, nor deny Prisoners a Vote.!!!!!

Sarkozy is on his way to Germany for another meeting with Merkel I would imagine it is to try to protect the French Banks from losing their
AAA status, which they would do if they accept a bail -out from the EFSF or ECB. The Banks say they will sell assets but apparently they
havn"t much to sell or anything worth a lot.

There is a Meeting of Foreigners from Oil Rich Countries to discuss whether they can help French Banks and Italian banks in particular to
avoid their AAA rating being reduced. Presumably because the EU cannot afford to bail out any more Countries and Germany is against fiscal
unity and a Eurobond.

One outspoken American analyst said it was doomed from the Start that unless there is fiscal Union the EU will fail . He also said that because
ringfencing is considered necessary to protect the big Countries like Italy and Spain, the smaller Countries have every right to feel aggreived
and may not vote for these decisions . The Yen has replaced the Euro as a preferred currency for Investors.

It looks like one step forward two steps back trying to come up with a solution to the EU crisis.

The protest marches in Greece turned into riots with damage to Tourist areas after it was learned that the latest austerity measures had
been passed in Parliament.
Two Greek Banks are to merge with financial investment from Qatar.
French Banks most exposed to Greek Debt and ratings agencies currently reviewing.
In Spain, 5 Banks have been downgraded, including Santander, only given a Licence in the U.K. a couple of years ago.

Most serious, a rift has developed between France and Germany. Sarkozy"s Wife was due to give birth to their daughter so he did not attend
the farewell dinner in honour of Trichet. France"s Finance Minister said the EFSF Fund should be turned into a Bank which resulted in Sarkozy
hotfooting it back to the farewell dinner and Germany , France and IMF head, La Garde huddled in a room for hours away from the Party.

France is in danger of losing its" AAA rating which is why he wants the EFSF Fund to be run as a Bank. Merkel is against this and says again that changes to the EU Treaty should not be ruled out. What these are no one knows but shares have fallen and there is no chance a
package will be ready in time for the G20 deadline and once again this dithering will create anger around the World.