EC PRESIDENT CALLS URGENT MEETING FOR TOMORROW #2

We've all heard of a Greek tragedy...if this wasn't all so tragic it would be a Greek comedy

Angelina wrote:We've all heard of a Greek tragedy...if this wasn't all so tragic it would be a Greek comedy

Everyone knows Greece will never repay it"s debt and who will lend to this Country? Angela Merkel and Sarcozy will rue the day they bailed out Greece!!!

When we joined the "common market "there was a financial rule that borrowing should not rise above 3% of GDP, Italy and France were the first to break the Rule but were never fined. EuroBonds are the only way to make the EU work but Merkel is dead against it because she knows rightly , that with 7
Countries in Financial difficulty there would be constant bailouts .

Adidas Chief Executive has just said everyone knows a Business must have some liquidity and EU Banks should have known this. The Indian President
said the EU must resolve their difficulties which have been dragging on since July and almost 2 years since the problem came to light.

Venizelos, Greek Finance Minister so opposed to a Referendum says the Party must get confidence vote to move ahead/ The 6th Tranche is due Dec.15th.

REFERUNDUM(SP?) CANCELLED

gillyspot wrote:

Panda wrote:Hi Angelique, I think if Greece defaults the EU will implode, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium Ireland all have problems and the rest of the World would think twice about investing in the Euro or buying bonds when 50% has been written off.Where are they going to get the money to keep all these Countries
afloat when the World is likely to be heading for a double dip recession. ?

Even if Greece decides to stay in the EU, who could trust it"s people to try to maintain an austerity plan when they already strike on the a few measures
brought in? How can the Government collect taxes, especially from the rich?

I think this might be behind Panpandreou"s thinking for having a Referendum, "If you want to stay in the EU, you MUST accept the measures taken to repay the loans."

Well put Panda

I heard yesterday that the doctors and dentists were fiddling their taxes and only declaring tiny amounts of pay. One dentist had only declared income (in a year) of 250 euros.

What with that and the fact that Greece since it joined euro doubled the public sector and massively increased pay increases way above Germany, France etc it is no wonder the Greeks are in trouble.

This referendum is crazy though - as would only be held after Greece had defaulted and remember they are due another tranche of 8 billion euros (loan) soon - who is going to let them have that now?

Gillyspot, you are spot on there. My husband and I lived in Greece five years, we had a small business there on an island. I could write a book. I am going back many years now.

They are the biggest tax evaders I have ever known. They have always wanted everything out of the system whilst giving nothing back. They will only deal in cash. You could wait until hell freezes over to get an invoice.

Whilst we were there the banks paid 18% interest on savings, at one time going up to 22%. No one used the banks to borrow money obviously. They just used to put cash money in. Get massive interest. Whilst at the same time fiddling the government out of every tax they could. No one would accept a cheque it was a no no.


Giving nothing back is exactly the same way that they have treated their tourists for years. Taking everything but giving nothing back except charm! Now Greece costs a lot of money to spend time in and that is why the tourists have really fallen off. The airports are a disgrace and are the same as they were in the sixties and seventies. people are herded like cattle with hardly any facilities. Nothing has been put back in just taken.

When we lived there sometimes the tax inspectors would come but everyone was ready for them, they always knew when they were coming. They would all be rushing around getting fake invoices for whatever they had in their business at the time.

They used to employ people without paying the normal contributions, the people they employed were often willing to oblige.

The people on our island used to walk around as if they had not two drachma to rub together and they could have bought and sold us 100 times over.

There was a saying " Greece is poor but the Greeks are rich"

They joined the euro after falsifying their figures. They behaved exactly the same as always , wanted to take but not give back. They should never have joined. The day of reckoning has come.

I love Greece it is a beautiful country and their people are charming. I feel sorry that they are in this present mess but they really have brought it on themselves from the top to the bottom.

I do not think they should be bailed out with money from other european nations that have had to pay their taxes, only to be spent on people who have not. They will just carry on as per usual.

In fact the best thing for them is to get out of the Euro and make their own alternative economy as they always have done.

In fact I think all the euro countries should call it a day. It does not work, it will never work. The French and the Germans are a cartel and will do anything to save it. Even selling our souls to China. We will all rue the day on that one.

Rant over LOL

Badboy wrote:REFERUNDUM(SP?) CANCELLED

Hi Badboy, Yes , it was cancelled this afternoon. Tomorrow there will be a vote of confidence in the Greek Parliament and if Papandreou loses a General Election will be called. As I said, he called this referendum so if the population voted to stay in the EU they would accept austerity measures more .

You couldn"t make this up could you.!!!

Panda wrote:

Badboy wrote:REFERUNDUM(SP?) CANCELLED

Hi Badboy, Yes , it was cancelled this afternoon. Tomorrow there will be a vote of confidence in the Greek Parliament and if Papandreou loses a General Election will be called. As I said, he called this referendum so if the population voted to stay in the EU they would accept austerity measures more .

You couldn"t make this up could you.!!!

no,you couldn't make it up.
WHEN WILL THE FILM COME OUT?

A Columbian University Professor has just been discussing the Greek crisis and says Greece should opt out of the EU because all the borrowing is only making matters worse for them down the line. To acheive any stability and change thinks there should be an immediate cut of 40% on Wages, a massive Tax reform, fuzeta is right, too much laissez faire in the Greek attitude. Six years ago Argentine defaulted, yet look at the Country now...doing well.!!!!!

It"s a fact that the Southern Countries, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal have a more laid back approach than the Northern Countries like Germany, Austria
Norway etc. something to to do with the Sun.

Ed Conway, economics editor


World leaders are negotiating an increase in the International Monetary
Fund's resources which could amount to hundreds of billions of dollars.


Chancellor George Osborne said the heads of state and finance ministers
gathered for the G20 summit were now "getting down to the nitty-gritty" of
discussing how to increase the size of the international economic backstop.

In remarks delivered on the sidelines of the Cannes meeting, Mr Osborne said
that there was a "conversation about increasing resources to the IMF in the
classic way".

Although he added that there were unlikely to be precise figures until at
least end of the meeting on Friday, experts said that the IMF's resources may
have to be doubled in order to make it big enough to calm markets.


George Osborne and David Cameron at the G20
summit



The fund currently has $950bn (£595bn) of resources, although more than half
of this is either in use or has been committed to troubled countries.

The plans to increase the emergency fund have gathered pace amid concerns
that the eurozone's own bailout fund, the European Financial Stability Facility
(EFSF), is failing to inspire investors and calm markets.

Mr Osborne's comments came on a day which was
dominated by news about the Greek government's U-turn on plans to hold a
referendum on the latest stage of the bailout.

Despite speculation that Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou was on the
brink of resigning, Mr Papandreou himself told Sky News that he would not stand
down – though he would cancel the referendum plan.

The IMF increase will provoke controversy in the UK because it will indicate
that Britain will be indirectly committed to providing further cash for
bailouts.

However, the fund will not give directly to the EFSF, and the extra cash will
not show up as a bigger UK deficit because of the way the contribution is
accounted for.

It"s getting more outrageous.!!!!! Papandreou is appealing for opposition Parties to come together if the vote tonight does not improve his position but
the opposition Party Leader says he will not agree.

The IMF is considering boosting it"s 395 Billion kitty and David Cameron says he is not averse to helping out. However the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africe) says it would contribute but demand more say in the affairs of the IMF. With a loan to the IMF, it is repayable after one year much
more Guarantee than Bonds.

To make matters more disquieting, Italy is providing monitoring systems to Syria which can track dissidents through their mobiles. Suppliers from France, Germany and even the U.S. are also supplying equipment. this is outrageous when Syria is brutal in it"s crackdown yet who is going to take action??
This information is provided by Privacy International.

The front page of one of Greece"s Newspapera shows a Greek Flag and EU Flag bound with a rope that is fraying.......very impressive I thought.

Anyway, if Papandreou does not increase his majority in his own Party , a General Election is called. The Tranche of E 8 billion due 15th December is desperately needed but to organise a General Election would mean it would not be received until a Parliament is formed which could take months.Maybe this
was the reason Papandreou called for a Referendum , to shake up the dissidents in his Party to enhance his majority for passing the new austerity measures
through.......if it works he has done well.

I did hear yesterday that if they get their skates on (once Papandreou resigns today) that they can hold an election as quick as on the 24th November if that is so they can get another government in power before the next tranche of loans is due.

However I can't see them doing this sadly for them (and for us)

gillyspot wrote:I did hear yesterday that if they get their skates on (once Papandreou resigns today) that they can hold an election as quick as on the 24th November if that is so they can get another government in power before the next tranche of loans is due.

However I can't see them doing this sadly for them (and for us)

Morning gillyspot, I think Papandreou is hoping to increase his majority so that he can pass the resolutions necessary for the austerity measures to
be taken. If he does, there is no Election. The G20 Members are miffed that this European crisis has monopolised their conference and nothing else has been discussed, urging the EU to sort it out quickly.

Italy is considered too big to fail , the IMF has said it could help but wants to "see the books"........Italy has declined!!!!! Can you believe the arrogance of these Countries?

Germany"s Commerzbank lost E687 million

Spains" post austerity programme risks stifling growth it is claimed.

To be honest, the World is in recession and it will take a long time before the situation improves. Let"s just hope lessons will have been learned and this
man made catastrophe never happens again.

When you think of it, the EU has got a cheek expecting everyone to come to their aid when their own Bank claims the Treaty does not allow for the
ECB to lend money!!!!

The G20 are urging Sarkozy and Merkel to resolve the problem , not just because the EU crisis has hijacked the meeting of G20 to such an exrtent that
there has been no time for discussing G20 problems.

Many Moons ago I worked for a Major Bank and in the Manager"s Office was a Framed enlarged Share Certificate. One day I asked what it meant and
he said every Branch of this Bank had a similar picture in the Managers Office. Apparently it was a reminder that China had defaulted on a huge loan and
that care should be taken when lending money ........maybe today"s Banks should have a similar message in the Manager"s Office not to adopt such an
OTT policy lending House Buyers up to £125% of property Mortgages.

Papandreou struggles because the rest of Parliament refuses to form a Unity Government to deal with this crisis. To be Honest, I think it is a question
of all hands on deck, the ship is sinking. A united government would have helped to steer the austerity measures through and stop the rioting.

A Professor of Economics at Colombia University says this is the death of the Euro.

Greek wages to reduce by 40%, will the Greeks accept it.? He says with all this Political torture, better to leave now.The debt will not be repaid for
generations.

fuzeta wrote:

gillyspot wrote:

Panda wrote:Hi Angelique, I think if Greece defaults the EU will implode, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium Ireland all have problems and the rest of the World would think twice about investing in the Euro or buying bonds when 50% has been written off.Where are they going to get the money to keep all these Countries
afloat when the World is likely to be heading for a double dip recession. ?

Even if Greece decides to stay in the EU, who could trust it"s people to try to maintain an austerity plan when they already strike on the a few measures
brought in? How can the Government collect taxes, especially from the rich?

I think this might be behind Panpandreou"s thinking for having a Referendum, "If you want to stay in the EU, you MUST accept the measures taken to repay the loans."

Well put Panda

I heard yesterday that the doctors and dentists were fiddling their taxes and only declaring tiny amounts of pay. One dentist had only declared income (in a year) of 250 euros.

What with that and the fact that Greece since it joined euro doubled the public sector and massively increased pay increases way above Germany, France etc it is no wonder the Greeks are in trouble.

This referendum is crazy though - as would only be held after Greece had defaulted and remember they are due another tranche of 8 billion euros (loan) soon - who is going to let them have that now?

Gillyspot, you are spot on there. My husband and I lived in Greece five years, we had a small business there on an island. I could write a book. I am going back many years now.

They are the biggest tax evaders I have ever known. They have always wanted everything out of the system whilst giving nothing back. They will only deal in cash. You could wait until hell freezes over to get an invoice.

Whilst we were there the banks paid 18% interest on savings, at one time going up to 22%. No one used the banks to borrow money obviously. They just used to put cash money in. Get massive interest. Whilst at the same time fiddling the government out of every tax they could. No one would accept a cheque it was a no no.


Giving nothing back is exactly the same way that they have treated their tourists for years. Taking everything but giving nothing back except charm! Now Greece costs a lot of money to spend time in and that is why the tourists have really fallen off. The airports are a disgrace and are the same as they were in the sixties and seventies. people are herded like cattle with hardly any facilities. Nothing has been put back in just taken.

When we lived there sometimes the tax inspectors would come but everyone was ready for them, they always knew when they were coming. They would all be rushing around getting fake invoices for whatever they had in their business at the time.

They used to employ people without paying the normal contributions, the people they employed were often willing to oblige.

The people on our island used to walk around as if they had not two drachma to rub together and they could have bought and sold us 100 times over.

There was a saying " Greece is poor but the Greeks are rich"

They joined the euro after falsifying their figures. They behaved exactly the same as always , wanted to take but not give back. They should never have joined. The day of reckoning has come.

I love Greece it is a beautiful country and their people are charming. I feel sorry that they are in this present mess but they really have brought it on themselves from the top to the bottom.

I do not think they should be bailed out with money from other european nations that have had to pay their taxes, only to be spent on people who have not. They will just carry on as per usual.

In fact the best thing for them is to get out of the Euro and make their own alternative economy as they always have done.

In fact I think all the euro countries should call it a day. It does not work, it will never work. The French and the Germans are a cartel and will do anything to save it. Even selling our souls to China. We will all rue the day on that one.

Rant over LOL

Fuzeta,

That was a really interesting post from someone who obviously knows a lot about Greece and how things work there.

Many thanks.

Ireland is said to begin E17.1 Billion austerity measure.

The IMF is not contributing to EFSF Fund and G20 failed to agree IMF 12 month loan to some of the EU Countries

Sarkozy says IMF must play it"s role, but G20 is impatient with the way this crisis is being handled and sees no obligation to help so many Countries
when nearly two years on no decisive action has been taken.

David Cameron said Britain will not contribute to the EU fund but will contribute to the IMF. Obama says he sympathises with the EU Leaders.

The IMF has currently lent money to 3 EU Countries.

mumbles wrote:

fuzeta wrote:

gillyspot wrote:

Panda wrote:Hi Angelique, I think if Greece defaults the EU will implode, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium Ireland all have problems and the rest of the World would think twice about investing in the Euro or buying bonds when 50% has been written off.Where are they going to get the money to keep all these Countries
afloat when the World is likely to be heading for a double dip recession. ?

Even if Greece decides to stay in the EU, who could trust it"s people to try to maintain an austerity plan when they already strike on the a few measures
brought in? How can the Government collect taxes, especially from the rich?

I think this might be behind Panpandreou"s thinking for having a Referendum, "If you want to stay in the EU, you MUST accept the measures taken to repay the loans."

Well put Panda

I heard yesterday that the doctors and dentists were fiddling their taxes and only declaring tiny amounts of pay. One dentist had only declared income (in a year) of 250 euros.

What with that and the fact that Greece since it joined euro doubled the public sector and massively increased pay increases way above Germany, France etc it is no wonder the Greeks are in trouble.

This referendum is crazy though - as would only be held after Greece had defaulted and remember they are due another tranche of 8 billion euros (loan) soon - who is going to let them have that now?

Gillyspot, you are spot on there. My husband and I lived in Greece five years, we had a small business there on an island. I could write a book. I am going back many years now.

They are the biggest tax evaders I have ever known. They have always wanted everything out of the system whilst giving nothing back. They will only deal in cash. You could wait until hell freezes over to get an invoice.

Whilst we were there the banks paid 18% interest on savings, at one time going up to 22%. No one used the banks to borrow money obviously. They just used to put cash money in. Get massive interest. Whilst at the same time fiddling the government out of every tax they could. No one would accept a cheque it was a no no.


Giving nothing back is exactly the same way that they have treated their tourists for years. Taking everything but giving nothing back except charm! Now Greece costs a lot of money to spend time in and that is why the tourists have really fallen off. The airports are a disgrace and are the same as they were in the sixties and seventies. people are herded like cattle with hardly any facilities. Nothing has been put back in just taken.

When we lived there sometimes the tax inspectors would come but everyone was ready for them, they always knew when they were coming. They would all be rushing around getting fake invoices for whatever they had in their business at the time.

They used to employ people without paying the normal contributions, the people they employed were often willing to oblige.

The people on our island used to walk around as if they had not two drachma to rub together and they could have bought and sold us 100 times over.

There was a saying " Greece is poor but the Greeks are rich"

They joined the euro after falsifying their figures. They behaved exactly the same as always , wanted to take but not give back. They should never have joined. The day of reckoning has come.

I love Greece it is a beautiful country and their people are charming. I feel sorry that they are in this present mess but they really have brought it on themselves from the top to the bottom.

I do not think they should be bailed out with money from other european nations that have had to pay their taxes, only to be spent on people who have not. They will just carry on as per usual.

In fact the best thing for them is to get out of the Euro and make their own alternative economy as they always have done.

In fact I think all the euro countries should call it a day. It does not work, it will never work. The French and the Germans are a cartel and will do anything to save it. Even selling our souls to China. We will all rue the day on that one.

Rant over LOL

Fuzeta,

That was a really interesting post from someone who obviously knows a lot about Greece and how things work there.

Many thanks.

Thank you Mumbles. I just wanted to tell how it really is there. Not as a tourist but living and working there. I just wanted to give an insight.

The Unspoken Is Spoken

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Sophy Ridge

November 03, 2011 12:33 PM

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There
are certain truths that are unspoken, for political reasons.
Particularly when they involve sensitive matters surrounding the global
economy.
So a couple of eyebrows may have been raised when City
Minister Mark Hoban spoke rather frankly in the House of Commons today
responding to an urgent question.
Firstly, he appeared to confirm that the Government was working on contingency plans for the Euro collapsing.
Tory MP Peter Bone asked directly if "the Government have a contingency plan for when the Euro collapses?"
Mr
Hoban replied: "You would expect that every good government would have
plans in place for a whole range of eventualities. This Government is
well prepared for any eventuality."
Even more surprisingly, in response to another question Mr Hoban appeared to imply the Euro was breaking up.
He said: "I don't think there's any intention for us to join the euro at a time when it is breaking up."
Some
may say the City Minister was stating the obvious - it's no secret the
Eurozone is going through a difficult period and its future is
uncertain. A Government who wasn't making contingency plans wouldn't be
doing their job properly, surely?
But Mr Hoban's words are far less carefully-couched than most of what's been coming out of the Government recently.










euro

eu

sophy_ridge

Hi Fuzeta,

Greece did not meet the monetary requirement when it joined and "fiddled " the figures. When the Euro was formed as the EU currency, the stipulation
was that debt should not exceed 3% above GDP, the first two Countries to exceed this were Spain and Italy but they were never penalised, I agree with your assessment of Greece, as we speak the rich are taking their money out of the Country and buying up expensive Properties in London. However,
blame should also be aimed at the EU leaders for not monitoring the Banks.....did any of them check on Greek ability to pay when they lent such huge
amounts of money? The EU Accounts could not be signed off by the Auditors for several years because they were unable to confirm the figures. angela
merkel is against fiscal union because she fears that Germany, the richest Country will be saddled with Germany contributing to shortfalls.

Greece should have been allowed to default two years ago, it is never going to repay it"s debt.

Tim Marshall 4/11/11 Sky News

Tonight' s vote of confidence in the Greek government could take up
to an hour to complete. Every minute will be watched everywhere in
Europe.
As I understand it the process is as follows, and if it isn't, let me know, because yes, it is all Greek to me.
There
are currently 300 MPs. They vote, in an impressively open show of
democracy, one by one. The name of the MP is read out, she or he is
asked the question, they raise an arm to vote. This starts at midnight
Greek time and should end in a tense final few votes by 0100.
This
will make for a fine Greek epic. Each vote cast will change the maths.
As we get towards the last few dozen MPs on what will be a razor edge
vote, the tension will grow. All the time people will be working out if
MP Y does vote the way expected, then the result will be X. At this
point we can expect a few beads of sweat to appear on the brows of the
MPs still to vote.
What is Greek for 'We know where you live'?
To
survive the Government needs a clear majority of those present as long
as they total at least 120 votes. A full house tonight will mean all
eyes on the magic number - 152.
If the government falls, Prime
Minister Papandreou goes to the President, resigns, and an election
takes place after a minimum of three weeks have passed.
If the Government survives it can stagger on. However, many analysts believe that Papandreou is now so badly weakened he can't go on.
What
then follows is less clear. Another party member could step in, but
what the Greek media think is more likely is that the President would
call the leaders of the 5 parties represented in Parliament to his
office and 'persuade' them to form an emergency national unity
government.
What could possibly go wrong?

G20 Leaders Short On Detail Over IMF Boost

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David Cameron said the crisis in Europe was having a 'chilling' effect on Britain





9:05pm UK, Friday November 04, 2011



Ed Conway, economics editor, in Cannes






G20 leaders were "within centimetres" of announcing a "big
number" by which to increase the International Monetary Fund's
resources, according to senior officials involved in the talks.


The Fund will be ready to announce a significant expansion,
potentially increasing its total resources by hundreds of billions of
dollars to a permanent $1trn, or more, the next time there is a
heightened economic crisis, the insider added.


The failure of the G20 summit
in Cannes to provide a definitive figure for the increase in the size
of the Fund's resources sent financial markets around the world into
negative territory on Friday afternoon.


The final communique issued after the meeting, which comprised the
leaders of all the world's leading economies, including the US, UK,
China, Germany and others – was vague about the IMF increase.












Lack of detail over how to increase the firepower of the IMF disappointed markets





It said: "We stand ready to ensure additional resources could be
mobilised in a timely manner and ask our finance ministers by their next
meeting to work on deploying a range of various options including
bilateral contributions to the IMF, SDRs, and voluntary contributions to
an IMF special structure such as an administered account."


Many, including Chancellor George Osborne
had hoped the summit would be able to announce a grand total figure by
which to increase the IMF's firepower, repeating what Gordon Brown did
in the 2009 London Summit.


Economists said although such a number would be largely symbolic, it
might nonetheless provide a clear signal that policymakers would stop at
nothing to ensure the economy would not slide into another crisis.












The head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, with Chancellor George Osborne





However, the insider said that had the question of whether Greece
would hold a referendum not effectively dissolved before the G20
meeting's climax, it is likely a figure would have been announced.


He said it was only when that eventuality had been dispelled that
opponents of the IMF expansion, largely Germany, constructed the
roadblocks that prevented a grand announcement.


The news will reassure investors who may have assumed that there was
little or no progress towards a "big bazooka" deal over the course of
the weekend.


Earlier, David Cameron said it is in Britain's interest that the eurozone crisis is sorted out sooner rather than later.


Prime Minister also reiterated that Britain, like other G20
countries, will contribute further to the IMF but not to the eurozone
bailout.

Fuzeta

Good post and very profound.

Papandreou has just delivered his speech and was applauded quite a lot. Don't know if he has achieved what he wanted but he certainly sounded as though he did not want to be in the Eurozone at all! He lauded democracy for the Greek people - well he won't get that if they don't leave the EU. But if they don't take the bail out it will be devasting for everyone.

Angelique wrote:Fuzeta

Good post and very profound.

Papandreou has just delivered his speech and was applauded quite a lot. Don't know if he has achieved what he wanted but he certainly sounded as though he did not want to be in the Eurozone at all! He lauded democracy for the Greek people - well he won't get that if they don't leave the EU. But if they don't take the bail out it will be devasting for everyone.

Hi Angelique , The Reporters are suggesting that Papandreou is saying a vote for him is a vote for the Euro. The reaction from the Public seems that
although they hate the austerity measures, they want to stay in the Euro. Papandreou in his speech did say he didn"t create the problems with Greece he inherited them and he means to tackle the problems . He is in contact with Swiss Banks to find the Greeks with Bank accounts there, stop the corruption
in Government and the Police forceetc, I don"t know how long he has been in power. If he is elected he intends to form a Government of National Unity,
but the Reporter is saying talking to Politicians he doesn"t think he will get enough votes.