EC PRESIDENT CALLS URGENT MEETING FOR TOMORROW #2

I do not trust David (hug a huddy) Cameron at all, he has more than two faces, his slow response and his backing of Andy Coulson showed Cameron for what he is.............. he is telling us one thing, but he is going to suck up to those european leaders, you wait and see, Cameron can not be trusted that is why his back benchers had a swipe at him yesterday, a polite warning imo

It seems inevitable that some Countries will default and if Merkel and Sarkozy try to bring a uniform Corporation Tax, Ireland will have
a Referendum for sure. Cameron is spineless and is forever tainted now because of his friendship with Murdoch and agreeing a £3 million
spend for a SY Review because the McCanns asked for it when the Country is in deep s***. How many jobs would that money have created if it had been lent to small companies? I know I keep saying this, but Cameron is reactive, not proactive and will be lucky if he sees his four year term of Office out.

ONE THING THE GOVERNMENT COULD DO IS GIVE MONEY TO CIRCLEFUND(OR IS IT FUNDCIRCLE)

Badboy wrote:ONE THING THE GOVERNMENT COULD DO IS GIVE MONEY TO CIRCLEFUND(OR IS IT FUNDCIRCLE)

Dunno Badboy, never heard of either.

David Cameron is at this moment closeted with European Finance Ministers trying to persuade him not to rock the boat and a British
Press spokesman reporting this says Cameron is in a very difficult situation .

Panda wrote:

Badboy wrote:ONE THING THE GOVERNMENT COULD DO IS GIVE MONEY TO CIRCLEFUND(OR IS IT FUNDCIRCLE)

Dunno Badboy, never heard of either.

David Cameron is at this moment closeted with European Finance Ministers trying to persuade him not to rock the boat and a British
Press spokesman reporting this says Cameron is in a very difficult situation .

IT GIVES MONEY TO BUSINESSES AND MIGHT ACTUALLY GIVE THE GOVERNMENT A RETURN FOR ITS MONEY AT 8.5%

Eurozone crisis: Talks to save euro begin in Brussels











Chancellor Merkel says the credibility of the euro must be restored


Continue reading the main story













Global Economy

• 
  What is a rating agency?
  
• 
  Spain's problems
  
• 
  Italy on the spot
  
• 
  Euro capsizing?
  

EU leaders in Brussels have opened a summit to tackle the eurozone debt crisis and save the single currency.

The key item on the agenda is a Franco-German proposal on
budgetary discipline, with automatic penalties for eurozone nations that
overspend.

Pre-summit talks between Britain, France and Germany broke up without agreement as each set out its position.

Earlier, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the euro had "lost credibility".

UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said he will veto anything which harms British interests.

Mr Cameron, Chancellor Merkel and French President Nicolas
Sarkozy held a 45-minute meeting on the eve of the summit, but sources
told the BBC there was "no movement" with each side setting out their
respective ground.

Downing Street sources said the negotiations were "going to
be difficult" and they did not expect any wider agreement among EU
leaders until Friday, the BBC's Iain Watson, in Brussels, reports.


Continue reading the main story Analysis





Chris Morris
BBC News, Brussels




Germany and France seem to be coming into this summit saying:
"Here's the deal - take it or leave it." Germany in particular is
becoming Europe's most important political power, as well as its most
important economic one - and that is causing some unease.

But President Sarkozy defended Franco-German leadership and -
using dramatic language - said memories of brutality between them
during World War Two mean they have a special duty to act.

The trouble is the European Union is much bigger than it was.
Every country - all 27 of them - has a red line somewhere. That is why
reaching an agreement is going to be so difficult.

But Angela Merkel has made it clear that she wants a treaty
change of some kind. She would prefer all member states to be involved,
but at the very least the 17 countries in the eurozone have to act.

Beyond the battle over treaty change there is a bigger
picture for the leaders gathered here. Can they find more financial
firepower to help member states with huge debts? And can they persuade
the markets that struggling countries are serious about years of
austerity?

In other words, can they do enough to ensure that the eurozone survives.




In a speech in Marseille earlier
on Thursday President Sarkozy warned that "never has the risk of
disintegration been greater" for Europe.

The leaders of the 27 EU nations were sitting down for an
informal dinner, and their talks - behind closed doors - were expected
to last well into the night, ahead of a number of working sessions on
Friday.

A set of draft conclusions has been circulating in Brussels and has been seen by the BBC.

The draft text proposes a limit on structural deficits of
0.5% of GDP, compared with the present limit of 3% including debt
repayments.

It also includes a way of increasing the firepower of the
eurozone bailout fund above 500bn euros (£426bn; $670bn) - a measure
which Germany has staunchly opposed.

However, the draft conclusions are likely to change substantially before a final text is adopted at the end of the summit.

Penalties
Germany and France are pushing for changes to the EU treaty, saying stricter fiscal rules should be made part of basic EU law.

The Franco-German plan is based on the following key provisions:

• the European Commission to have the power to impose penalties for nations that run excessive budget deficits
  
• all 17 eurozone nations should amend their national legislation to require balanced budgets
  
• the eurozone countries to have common corporation and financial transaction taxes
  
• any future bailouts would not require private investors to absorb part of the costs, as happened in the case of Greece
  

As Mrs Merkel arrived at the summit venue in Brussels,
she told journalists: "The euro has lost credibility and that needs to
be restored."

She said the European Commission and the European Court of
Justice would have more powers in future to enforce the rules,
declaring: "We must make clear that we accept more co-ordination."

"Never has Europe been so necessary. Never has it been in so
much danger," said Mr Sarkozy at a meeting of EU centre-right leaders in
Marseille.

He said the eurozone economies still had a few weeks to decide, but that time was working against them.

Earlier on Thursday, the European Central Bank (ECB) cut
interest rates back to their historic low of 1%, as expected by
financial markets.


Continue reading the main story “Start Quote

We have a treaty that says no monetary financing to governments”

Mario Draghi
ECB President


ECB President Mario Draghi
called again for governments to cut their borrowing and reform their
economies, but did not mention any new financial support from the ECB
for struggling governments.

"We have a treaty that says no monetary financing to governments," he told reporters.

European Council President Herman Van Rompuy has put forward
an alternative plan, a fast-track "fiscal compact" that does not need
lengthy ratification by parliaments or national referendums.

The EU's most recent treaty, adopted in Lisbon in 2007, took eight years to negotiate.

But Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt warned that
changing the treaty would take time and trigger the need for a
referendum.

In recent days, smaller EU nations have complained they are
being forced to follow the agenda of Germany and France, with very
little room for discussion, says the BBC's Chris Morris in Brussels.

An advisory committee to the Finnish parliament has warned
that the Franco-German plan may be unconstitutional because it replaces
the majority veto on the fund for future bailouts with majority voting.








More o

IT IS BEING SAID EURO COLLAPSE COULD COST BRITAIN 100 BILLION?

Badboy wrote:IT IS BEING SAID EURO COLLAPSE COULD COST BRITAIN 100 BILLION?

I havn"t heard that Badboy but it will affect the whole world. did you notice in the report that finland and Sweden are voicing concern
and if they try to force Ireland to increase it"s corporation tax, they will have a referendum. It"s not at all certain that every Country
will agree the proposals and Standard and Poors will definitely reduce the ratings of all 17 Euro Countries if firm decisions are not adopted
tomorrow.

Panda wrote:

Badboy wrote:IT IS BEING SAID EURO COLLAPSE COULD COST BRITAIN 100 BILLION?

I havn"t heard that Badboy but it will affect the whole world. did you notice in the report that finland and Sweden are voicing concern
and if they try to force Ireland to increase it"s corporation tax, they will have a referendum. It"s not at all certain that every Country
will agree the proposals and Standard and Poors will definitely reduce the ratings of all 17 Euro Countries if firm decisions are not adopted
tomorrow.

IT WAS ON SKY NEWS LOOKING AT THE HEADLINES.
I HAVE JUST LOOKED AT ARTICLE MENTIONED AND SEE SWEDISH .FINNISH,SOUNDS LIKE PROBLEMS AHEAD FOR ANY TREATY CHANGE.

sky news 8/12/11 Kleinman

ace it, monetary policy is complicated, particularly when you start
trying to understand how central banks do their job when interest rates
aren’t working and when you’re facing a credit crunch. On that basis,
here’s a quick five-point guide to what the European Central Bank has
done today, moving from the obvious to the less-obvious.1. It cut
interest rates. The ECB’s main refi rate (for so it is called) is now
down from 1.25% to 1% - equalling the record low it last touched in the
2009 recession. This was in line with expectations, although not quite
as far as some of the optimists would have liked. And it leaves
unanswered the question some are posing, as to whether 1% is effectively
the floor for ECB rates.
2. It forecast a Eurozone recession – or
the nearest thing to it, cutting its growth forecast for next year to a
band of minus 0.4% to (positive) 1%.
3. It pushed the button on a
potentially enormous liquidity operation. It essentially endorsed the
notion that there is a credit crunch in the Eurozone (with banks
struggling to borrow the cash to keep their balance sheets afloat), and
dramatically improved the generosity of its crisis-era liquidity scheme.
It
had previously been offering troubled banks cash for terms of up to a
year, in exchange for a relatively narrowly-proscribed collection of
assets (“collateral”). There’s no set size to these operations – that
depends on the demand from banks, and the operations were effectively
unlimited (“full allotment”).
Today’s decision both lengthened the
term of those cash infusions to a maximum of three years (starting with
what was going to be a 12-month operation on 21 December), and widened
the types of collateral it would allow in exchange for the cash. It will
now accept comparatively trashy securities such as low-grade
asset-backed securities and small business loans. In other words, if
you’re a European bank struggling to stay afloat, and have rather a lot
of these loans in your balance sheet, this will make your life a lot
more comfortable.
4. The upshot is that as of today, the European
Central Bank has the most generous liquidity operations in the developed
world. To take a comparison, the Bank of England doesn’t offer
liquidity for any longer than a year, and doesn’t take such a broad
range of securities as collateral.
5. It won’t necessarily step in
to save the euro. Although government debt markets reacted positively
to the nuggets above, they reversed the improvement after the ECB
president, Mario Draghi, insisted that even if the euro leaders meeting
in Brussels came up with a convincing “fiscal compact”, the Bank
wouldn’t necessarily step in and start buying up troubled euro debt.
Moreover, Mr Draghi revealed that the ECB decision was not a unanimous
one, suggesting that it does not have its full weight behind it.
Check out how the Italian government bond yield reacted:

Note
how it dropped just after 13.30, which is when Mr Draghi announced the
liquidity operations. And then how it climbed sharply back afterwards
and is now just shy of 6.5% - the highest level it’s hit so far this
week, and ever closer to the so-called danger point of 7%.











ecb

euro

crisis

The 4 Countries who refused to sign the Treaty and will discuss with their Parliaments were Britain, Sweden, Hungary and Checzloslovakia who will
seek guidance from their Governments before signing.

Moody"s has downgraded three French Banks,BNP Paribas, Credit Agricole and Societe Generale citing liquidity deteriorating significantly and funding
constraint.

Sony Kapoor, Managing Director or think tank re-define says very little has been done to address the immediate problem of liquidity and printing the
E150 billion to hand over to the IMF for distribution to the EU Countries in difficulties will do little.

China says there is a big problem for the EU trying to get investors to buy Bonds or receive loans from other Countries.

IMK Chief Economist says too much effort has been put into creating this new fiscal Treaty which Germany and France were the first to break with the
existing Treaty and nothing done to address the immediate liquidity problem. He foresees the break-up of the Eurozone Countries which will affect the rest of the World.

A little while ago it was a case of "6 weeks to save the Euro". Now it seems negotiations will be going on until March. Something doesn't seem quite right there

I don't think this is the time for Conservative backbenchers to start on about a referendum. I don't think much of David Cameron but now is the time for him to get full support from his MPs.

Angelina wrote:A little while ago it was a case of "6 weeks to save the Euro". Now it seems negotiations will be going on until March. Something doesn't seem quite right there

I don't think this is the time for Conservative backbenchers to start on about a referendum. I don't think much of David Cameron but now is the time for him to get full support from his MPs.

Morning Angelina,

An American Economist from Sussex University said Britain must remember it is part of the European Union and has always been a reluctant Partner.
she said the U.K. Government made a big mistake saying they would not help to bail out Greece, which p***ed off Merkozy as they have been dubbed
so they made no allowance for Britains position with regard to transaction taxes. Having said that, her comments on the proposed changes were very
clear, too much time spent on future economics and too little on the immediate crisis and what will happen to Greece, Italy and Spain????? Recession is
on the cards .

Hi All

Cameroon has done it - he's told them to go "st**f it"!

I must say I'm impressed - but then as has been mooted they will now mull it over in Parliament and probably change their minds.

Did anyone see the Greek Communist MP - Liana Kanelli yesterday evening on Channel 4 News - she told Snowy that Greece wanted out and that the EU was virtually a dictatorship telling countries to sack their voted representatives at will. She agreed with Snowy that the only reason they are holding Greece in is to save Italy and the rest of the Union. No wonder the Greeks are hopping mad. I was impressed by her as well.

Angelique wrote:Hi All

Cameroon has done it - he's told them to go "st**f it"!

I must say I'm impressed - but then as has been mooted they will now mull it over in Parliament and probably change their minds.

Did anyone see the Greek Communist MP - Liana Kanelli yesterday evening on Channel 4 News - she told Snowy that Greece wanted out and that the EU was virtually a dictatorship telling countries to sack their voted representatives at will. She agreed with Snowy that the only reason they are holding Greece in is to save Italy and the rest of the Union. No wonder the Greeks are hopping mad. I was impressed by her as well.

Hi Angelique, BTW I did say thank you to you and Badboy on thios thread for keepiing going while I was away.

Yes, I saw the Communist MP and Greece will never be able to adhere to the 3% GDP criteria when they are paying 34% interest on 10 yr Bonds and
the austerity measures will result in rioting again, because there is no growth anywhere in the World at the moment. The situation in the Euro is not sorted, not by a long way , and bringing in Croatia, another small Country will add to the problem. I know the Country is not scheduled to join for a
couple of years but it will take years before the Euro Countries stabilise. David Cameron might have shown some Leadership but Britain needs Europe
and Merkel and Sarkozy will make Britain pay for this, although I agree with the stand he made. As has been said before, it was Germany and France
who renaged on the 3% of GDP when it was introduced when the euro was born. One analyst said unless Europe has a Central Banking System like the
Fed and BOE it will fail. He also said a common language would help and who is going to monitor these Countries Economies when the Primary Law is
introduced next March?

Angelique wrote:Hi All

Cameroon has done it - he's told them to go "st**f it"!

I must say I'm impressed - but then as has been mooted they will now mull it over in Parliament and probably change their minds.

Did anyone see the Greek Communist MP - Liana Kanelli yesterday evening on Channel
4 News - she told Snowy that Greece wanted out and that the EU was virtually a dictatorship telling countries to sack their voted representatives at will. She agreed with Snowy that the only reason they are holding Greece in is to save Italy and the rest of the Union. No wonder the Greeks are hopping mad. I was impressed by her as well.

Hello Angelique. I agree with you I am also very impressed with him. I think if he had not told them " to go st**f it" he would have been finished as far as the British people are concerned.

After Cameron's decision he had to stick it out whilst everyone cold shouldered him. That must have been quite intimidating. Who wants these sort of people for "friends" anyway

The Germans ministers have been very rude about the UK over the last few weeks and Sarkozy has poked fun at us. They do not like us because we do not bend the knee! As soon as they realised that they were not going to get control of the 'City' they did not want us in anyway. Now they are using us as a scapegoat blaming us for all ills.

Yes we are going to suffer for this, they will make sure of that. We must stay strong and ride the storm. We will come out the best in the end. The ones that will not be so lucky are all those countries that were too scared to stand up to Merkel and Sarkozy. When they lose complete control of their own countries and have to start speaking German they will see the error of their ways. Good luck to them.

Yes Angelique Liana Kanelli was brilliant I was so impressed by her. She told it like it is, well done to her.

ireland is seeking a referendum because Sarkozy has already said Ireland"s 12.5% Corporation tax is unfair so he made sure this would fall in line with the new EU rules. It really is a dictatorship not a Union and I will lay oldds that Greece defaults . It is all very sinister too that Merkozy brought their own
men in to replace Greece and Italy, even Draghi the new President of the ECB is bending the rules.

Panda wrote:ireland is seeking a referendum because Sarkozy has already said Ireland"s 12.5% Corporation tax is unfair so he made sure this would fall in line with the new EU rules. It really is a dictatorship not a Union and I will lay oldds that Greece defaults . It is all very sinister too that Merkozy brought their own
men in to replace Greece and Italy, even Draghi the new President of the ECB is bending the rules.

Agreed Panda it is a dictatorship and all very sinister. Greek newspapers have called it the fourth Reich !!

Has anyone mentioned yet that Germany is printing Deutsche Marks ? Apparently the presses are in overdrive !!

fuzeta wrote:

Panda wrote:ireland is seeking a referendum because Sarkozy has already said Ireland"s 12.5% Corporation tax is unfair so he made sure this would fall in line with the new EU rules. It really is a dictatorship not a Union and I will lay oldds that Greece defaults . It is all very sinister too that Merkozy brought their own
men in to replace Greece and Italy, even Draghi the new President of the ECB is bending the rules.

Agreed Panda it is a dictatorship and all very sinister. Greek newspapers have called it the fourth Reich !!

Hi fuzeta,

I watched a T.V. Documentary a few nights ago about Merkel and how she comes from a Baptist family which did not believe in debt. Germans follow
the Martin Luther teachings of not living beyond ones means and just do not believe in debt. Which is why I find it strange that Germany had no qualms
about breaking the 3% GDP rule . There is no European Country who questioned this new Treaty even though the German Minister said there was no need
for it. In the progamme about Merkel at the end they said she will either be remembered for her intransigence if the Euro fails or praised for her vision if
it works. The general concensus is that there will be a world wide recession because everyone is feeling the pinch financially and of course you have to
have growth to prosper. I hope Greece voluntarily defaults , it would take Generations to repay this debt.

Lioned wrote:Has anyone mentioned yet that Germany is printing Deutsche Marks ? Apparently the presses are in overdrive !!

I know they had a stash of Deutschemarks but didn"t know they are printing in readiness. I know there was talk before this plan has been accepted that
Germany would leave the Eurozone and start another union including all the Northern Countries, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland with the Deutschemark
as currency. It was also said that Germany has enjoyed the lowest rate of interest on Goverment Debt and while they are great Exporters, it is all one sided because of their austerity they import very little.

On TV last night they showed Greece minting special two euro coins for the 10 years they have had it. What is the betting it is a cover up and behind the scenes they are printing drachma. On the other hand I had forgotten for a moment that Merkel and Sarkozy have their own man in charge!!!

fuzeta wrote:On TV last night they showed Greece minting special two euro coins for the 10 years they have had it. What is the betting it is a cover up and behind the scenes they are printing drachma. On the other hand I had forgotten for a moment that Merkel and Sarkozy have their own man in charge!!!

Fuzeta, what can he do if Greece rebels and goes on the rampage like they did before ,? I seem to remember this guy is only interim and that Greece and Italy both face Elections in a couple of months and being volatile Nations they will not be able to tolerate the austerity measures for long.

Germanys GDP aint so hot either so we're probably all in the crapper.Personally i think the Euro is doomed.Germany is the strongest economy and they dont want to carry the rest,especially the PIIGS,so Humpty Dumpty 's gonna fall i recon.