The McCanns and Martin Grime 2 - THREAD NOW WORKING!

[Panda]

The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime by The Madeleine McCann Research Group


18Mar



Dr Kate McCann, in her book ‘madeleine’, has comprehensively smeared top dog handler Martin Grime, who took his cadaver dogs out to Praia da Luz.

On pages 249-250 of ‘madeleine’, for example, she writes:

“At one point [during the screening of a video of the cadaver dog Eddie alerting to the scent of a corpse in the living room of the McCanns’ apartment] the handler [Martin Grime] directed the dogs to a spot behind the conch in the sitting room, close to the curtains. He called the dogs over to him to investigate this particular site.

“The dogs ultimately ‘alerted’. I felt myself starting to relax a little. This was not what I would call an exact science”. Dr Kate McCann is clearly querying Mr Grimes’ expertise.

In a second passage, Dr Kate McCann clearly implies that Mr Grime deliberately caused his cadaver dog to alert to their hired Renault Scenic car.

She writes:

“…we were in an underground garage where eight or so cars were parked, including our rented Renault Scenic. It was hard to miss: the windows were plastered with pictures of Madeleine. In medicine we would call this an ‘unblinded’ study, one that is susceptible to bias. One of the dogs ran straight past our car, nose in the air, heading towards the next vehicle.

“The handler stopped next to the Renault and called the dog. It obeyed, returned to him, but then ran off again. Staying by the car, PC Grime instructed the dog to come back several times and directed it to certain parts of the vehicle before it eventually supplied an alert by barking…when researching the validity of sniffer dog evidence later that month, Gerry would discover that false alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler…this certainly seemed to be what was happening here…”

Dr Kate McCann is plainly suggesting, and has done so to hundreds of thousands of readers of her book, that Mr Grime is incompetent. Not only is this suggestion libellous, it is patently ludicrous. One must ask: would a person such as Mr Grime, whose professional livelihood depended on the 100% reliability of his dogs, proceed to suggest the past presence of a corpse at locations in the McCanns’ flat, and in their hired car, if Madeleine might still be alive somewhere?

She might have been found alive the next day

If so, Martin Grime’s professional credibility and his livelihood would have been ruined for ever.

Published by The Madeline McCann Research Group, March 2012


With thanks to Hardlinemarxist

[mossman]

It makes a change from her previous excuse of their car being the only one with posters of madeleine, hence the dogs alert !

I assume Mr Grimes is paid for his services, regardless of whether or not they produce a positive result. So why would he influence the dogs.

It is interesting that the mccanns come out with these statements and discredit the dogs. Yet, was the blood in the apartment not suggested to be from a nose bleed, the clothes explained by way of visits to dead people in the course of kates work and in the recent swedish interview gerry says there was dna in the boot but just not madeleines, it was all of theirs - from five people. Therefore, to me, he is confirming that the dogs did exactly what they are trained to do. Find blood / dna / cadaver odour. It is just the source of their findings they are disputing. I know neither kate nor gerry made the statement about the clothes, they never disputed it either though.

So which is it - are the dogs totally unreliable, found nothing and were influenced by their handler or do the mccanns agree that they did indeed find dna in the boot of the car and they are only disputing the source as being 100% from madeleine as he has now stated in sweden ?

If we believe his swedish statement, then the dogs are right. They never said it was madeleine, they just signalled that there was something there and there was.

So gerry, the dogs were right, they signalled to something and something was there. The only thing you are disputing is that it came directly from madeleine. Therefore, they are not unreliable as you previously stated.

More confusion.

[Guest]

Try looking at the Amazon forum, Honestbroker on there has spent quite literally MONTHS telling outright lies about Martin Grime and his dogs. Why would he do that if it really was of no consequence?

[margaret]

The McCanns know the dogs were right. That's why they gave us a ludicrous excuse as to why it was found - Kate signing all those deaths....

Well either the dogs detected something or they didn't - but you can't have it both ways Dr.Gerry.

[kitti]

Mr grimes has been told not to comment.


Kate McCann stated that the scent was planted ....so she should make up her mind also stating that their was NO DNA in the car from Madeleine then saying there WAS And it was a mixture from the five off them......were the five off them DEAD as their were bodily fluids in there but then again....did the mccanns piss in the boot, you can get away with the dirty nappies but she has said five so did the mccanns use the boot as a toilet.


Kate McCann is repeating what is in Rosiepops book about the car was only alerted because off the stickers in the car window in the underground car park but the keys were in hidden in aother place on a other floor in a bucket off sand ...so the dogs knew they were the keys to the scenic ....

[Panda]

I must admit when I first saw Grimes with the dog in the Car Park, he seemed to be leading him to the Car. However, if the scent on Kate's trousers
and her explantion to be believed, would she wear check trousers to work? We know she only worked one and a half days a week but are led to believe
she had to visist a Mortuary 6 times in one day !!!!!!! Surely she would have washed the trousers before taking them on holiday.

[mossman]

I must admit when I first saw Grimes with the dog in the Car Park, he seemed to be leading him to the Car. However, if the scent on Kate's trousers
and her explantion to be believed, would she wear check trousers to work? We know she only worked one and a half days a week but are led to believe
she had to visist a Mortuary 6 times in one day !!!!!!! Surely she would have washed the trousers before taking them on holiday.

Hello Panda. Yes, i noticed that with the car and martin grimes as well. It was then I started to read about how these dogs work. The conclusion I came to, albeit an uneducated opinion, is that grimes knows his dogs. We have mentioned this before, how a scent travels and is stronger in the original location but will move. I would guess because he knows his dogs he could see they were interested in that location but then started to run in the direction in which the scent was travelling and becoming weaker. Just my opinion for what its worth.

With regard to the trousers, let us pretend we are all mad and the mccann couple the only sane people left in the world. Ok, she is the unluckiest gp in the whole of the UK and I would not like to be her patient if she meets that many dead people in the course of a working week. Maybe after a large gin and tonic I can start to believe that. But it will take more than gin to persuade me she brought her childs toy with her to work. In fact if I ever see my gp sitting behind his desk with a childs teddy in his hands, well it is time to call in the men in white coats

[kitti]

The dogs were led to ALL the cars in the same way, you just never saw all the video off all the cars being checked......

Who told the dogs to pick up the red t shirt?

[maebee]

[quote="kitti"]Mr grimes has been told not to comment.

Kate McCann stated that the scent was planted ....
quote]

And from where would the PJ or Mr. Grime get Madeleine's scent to plant it? Ridiculous.

[ann_chovey]

[quote="maebee"]

Mr grimes has been told not to comment.

Kate McCann stated that the scent was planted ....
quote]

And from where would the PJ or Mr. Grime get Madeleine's scent to plant it? Ridiculous.

It wasn't Madeleine's scent in particular though as I understand it, it was 'cadaver odour', so I assume the McCs implied that it was this that was planted. It is used in both its natural form and synthetic to train dogs. b.t.w. I don't believe it was planted.

[Oldartform]

Can I just put everyone straight about GPs and dead bodies without appearing to be a supporter of the Mcs innocence. I used to work in an undertakers - we regularly had GPs visit our mortuary to certify that bodies were dead and they could do quite a few at a time, though never as many as 6 but there were other undertakers in the town they visited when doing the rounds. I do find it rather extreme that KM did 6 when she only worked short hours and her surgery covered a fairly small area. Plus its also not nice to be wearing those same clothes but male doctors do the rounds in their suits and don`t have their suits cleaned after every visit. Just saying this to try and keep us on the truth tracks.

[fred]

That sounds sensible Oldartform

[rainbow-fairy]

[quote="ann_chovey"]

Mr grimes has been told not to comment.

Kate McCann stated that the scent was planted ....
quote]

And from where would the PJ or Mr. Grime get Madeleine's scent to plant it? Ridiculous.

It wasn't Madeleine's scent in particular though as I understand it, it was 'cadaver odour', so I assume the McCs implied that it was this that was planted. It is used in both its natural form and synthetic to train dogs. b.t.w. I don't believe it was planted.

Even if they DID have cadaver chemical to plant, why not plant it on Murat?!? IIRC he was the first arguido - so if the PJ were so 'desperate' to frame somebody - why not him? Why wait then pin it on the 'poor, innocent parents'? Honestly, Kate's reasoning is so flawed I just don't know where to begin!

[Guest]

[quote="rainbow-fairy"]

Mr grimes has been told not to comment.

Kate McCann stated that the scent was planted ....
quote]

And from where would the PJ or Mr. Grime get Madeleine's scent to plant it? Ridiculous.

It wasn't Madeleine's scent in particular though as I understand it, it was 'cadaver odour', so I assume the McCs implied that it was this that was planted. It is used in both its natural form and synthetic to train dogs. b.t.w. I don't believe it was planted.

Even if they DID have cadaver chemical to plant, why not plant it on Murat?!? IIRC he was the first arguido - so if the PJ were so 'desperate' to frame somebody - why not him? Why wait then pin it on the 'poor, innocent parents'? Honestly, Kate's reasoning is so flawed I just don't know where to begin!

I briefly toyed with the idea that the PJ planted it, with the best of intentions - to try and scare a confession out of them. But then I came back to the conclusion, as you did, that there were easier mugs to frame. So I dismissed the idea again as it is, as you say, flawed logic.

[fred]

[quote="rainbow-fairy"]

Mr grimes has been told not to comment.

Kate McCann stated that the scent was planted ....
quote]

And from where would the PJ or Mr. Grime get Madeleine's scent to plant it? Ridiculous.

It wasn't Madeleine's scent in particular though as I understand it, it was 'cadaver odour', so I assume the McCs implied that it was this that was planted. It is used in both its natural form and synthetic to train dogs. b.t.w. I don't believe it was planted.

Even if they DID have cadaver chemical to plant, why not plant it on Murat?!? IIRC he was the first arguido - so if the PJ were so 'desperate' to frame somebody - why not him? Why wait then pin it on the 'poor, innocent parents'? Honestly, Kate's reasoning is so flawed I just don't know where to begin!

Exactly! He would have been the perfect patsy. Odd ball with the glass eye (yes I know he hasn't got one, but don't let the truth interfere with a good tabloid story) He would have been perfect for a set up. Innocent badly done parents nasty half foreign creep, who still lives with his mummy, perfect, so yes, why if it was a set up, didn't they nail Murat?

[Fern]

Can I just put everyone straight about GPs and dead bodies without appearing to be a supporter of the Mcs innocence. I used to work in an undertakers - we regularly had GPs visit our mortuary to certify that bodies were dead and they could do quite a few at a time, though never as many as 6 but there were other undertakers in the town they visited when doing the rounds. I do find it rather extreme that KM did 6 when she only worked short hours and her surgery covered a fairly small area. Plus its also not nice to be wearing those same clothes but male doctors do the rounds in their suits and don`t have their suits cleaned after every visit. Just saying this to try and keep us on the truth tracks.

Even if the clothes had been washed it wouldn't make a difference given the superb abilities of Eddie. Also the possibility of cross contamination cannot be ruled out either based on the below comments by Martin Grime.

Martin Grime.
U.K.N.P.I.A. Registered Subject Matter Expert.
F.B.L Forensic Canine Program Specialist Advisor

"'Dead body scent' cannot be removed by cleaning. The compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to separate odour and identify specific compounds' and mixes to cellular level. A similar system would be a device similar to an electron microscope."


"With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver?
OR
Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred?

There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

[kathybelle]

Can anyone give an explanation, why there was cadaver scent on one item of Madeleine's clothing and Cuddle Cat, as well as Kate's clothing, but none on any of the twin's clothing or Gerry's clothing?

[Fern]

Can anyone give an explanation, why there was cadaver scent on one item of Madeleine's clothing and Cuddle Cat, as well as Kate's clothing, but none on any of the twin's clothing or Gerry's clothing?

IIRC it was a red t-shirt belonging to Sean that Eddie marked ?

What I too find unusual is why no indication was made to the suitcases by Eddie despite the number of moves the McCanns made.

[Wintabells]

Eddie was raising his head and jumping upwards in the empty space between the McC's car and the next one. Kate seems to think she can interpret this behaviour better than the handler. Any dog owner knows that dogs will lift their heads when the catch the scent of something, (this, I think, is why they like to sleep with the muzzle part of their face turned upwards) - it doesn't mean the thing their scenting is located in that upward direction. Grimes brought Eddie back to the car he'd run past as Eddie clearly hadn't been round it properly, but was indicating he could scent something of interest. The result is there for all to see - Eddie was getting a scent from a small hole in the front passenger door seal.

[Fern]

Eddie was raising his head and jumping upwards in the empty space between the McC's car and the next one. Kate seems to think she can interpret this behaviour better than the handler. Any dog owner knows that dogs will lift their heads when the catch the scent of something, (this, I think, is why they like to sleep with the muzzle part of their face turned upwards) - it doesn't mean the thing their scenting is located in that upward direction. Grimes brought Eddie back to the car he'd run past as Eddie clearly hadn't been round it properly, but was indicating he could scent something of interest. The result is there for all to see - Eddie was getting a scent from a small hole in the front passenger door seal.

It was the drivers side door seal IIRC although regardless of which side it was, Eddie can be clearly seen 'marking' along the seal. I wasn't aware there was a small hole though ?

[kathybelle]

Can anyone give an explanation, why there was cadaver scent on one item of Madeleine's clothing and Cuddle Cat, as well as Kate's clothing, but none on any of the twin's clothing or Gerry's clothing?

IIRC it was a red t-shirt belonging to Sean that Eddie marked ?

What I too find unusual is why no indication was made to the suitcases by Eddie despite the number of moves the McCanns made.

This is what is written in the PJ Summary Report : cadaver odour, on two pieces of clothing belonging to Kate Healy and one piece of clothing of the minor Madeleine. As well as the pink soft toy belonging to Madeleine, which I presume is Cuddle Cat.

[Wintabells]

Eddie was raising his head and jumping upwards in the empty space between the McC's car and the next one. Kate seems to think she can interpret this behaviour better than the handler. Any dog owner knows that dogs will lift their heads when the catch the scent of something, (this, I think, is why they like to sleep with the muzzle part of their face turned upwards) - it doesn't mean the thing they're scenting is located in that upward direction. Grimes brought Eddie back to the car he'd run past as Eddie clearly hadn't been round it properly, but was indicating he could scent something of interest. The result is there for all to see - Eddie was getting a scent from a small hole in the front passenger door seal.

It was the drivers side door seal IIRC although regardless of which side it was, Eddie can be clearly seen 'marking' along the seal. I wasn't aware there was a small hole though ?

Apologies, yes, it was the driver's door. I was sure Martin Grimes had said 'out through a hole in the seal of the door', but you're quite correct, he says 'through the seal of the door'.

[Fern]

Can anyone give an explanation, why there was cadaver scent on one item of Madeleine's clothing and Cuddle Cat, as well as Kate's clothing, but none on any of the twin's clothing or Gerry's clothing?

IIRC it was a red t-shirt belonging to Sean that Eddie marked ?

What I too find unusual is why no indication was made to the suitcases by Eddie despite the number of moves the McCanns made.

This is what is written in the PJ Summary Report : cadaver odour, on two pieces of clothing belonging to Kate Healy and one piece of clothing of the minor Madeleine. As well as the pink soft toy belonging to Madeleine, which I presume is Cuddle Cat.

I agree with Cuddle cat and ONE item belonging to Kate (check trousers) however the red t-shirt with an aeroplane on it, I'd consider to belong to Sean.

What was the other item of Kates' that was 'marked' as I can't recall anything about this ?

Another issue that is strange in my opinion is when you consider the amount of times we have seen Kate holding Cuddle Cat on her chest for example or even in her handbag, why weren't ANY of Kates tops cross contaminated or her handbag.....................

[Fern]

Apologies, yes, it was the driver's door. I was sure Martin Grimes had said 'out through a hole in the seal of the door', but you're quite correct, he says 'through the seal of the door'.

No need to apologise whatsoever, its an easy mistake to make.

It wasn't that long ago that even after following the case from the start that I realised that Eddie didn't actually enter the Scenic and even more significantly, he didn't alert to the Scenic boot seal.

[Fern]

Eddie was raising his head and jumping upwards in the empty space between the McC's car and the next one. Kate seems to think she can interpret this behaviour better than the handler. Any dog owner knows that dogs will lift their heads when the catch the scent of something, (this, I think, is why they like to sleep with the muzzle part of their face turned upwards) - it doesn't mean the thing they're scenting is located in that upward direction. Grimes brought Eddie back to the car he'd run past as Eddie clearly hadn't been round it properly, but was indicating he could scent something of interest. The result is there for all to see - Eddie was getting a scent from a small hole in the front passenger door seal.

It was the drivers side door seal IIRC although regardless of which side it was, Eddie can be clearly seen 'marking' along the seal. I wasn't aware there was a small hole though ?

Apologies, yes, it was the driver's door. I was sure Martin Grimes had said 'out through a hole in the seal of the door', but you're quite correct, he says 'through the seal of the door'.

No need to apologise whatsoever, its an easy mistake to make.

It wasn't that long ago that even after following the case from the start that I realised that Eddie didn't actually enter the Scenic and even more significantly, he didn't alert to the Scenic boot seal.

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