Re: Can we talk about Seabass again?

Velvet Sun 13 May - 9:08

Morning wintabells!

I've briefly been looking up cadaver dogs and seabass and found this website:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=354206&pagen=4

It questions whether cadaver dogs are unreliable and there is a question about seabass.

Below was the response from someone who works with cadaver dogs:

Cadaver Dogs Unreliable?
by Nancy on 15 January 2010 - 19:01
Dani- how long is scent released from the body....we train regularly with cremains. We also trained with a 700 year old tooth and the dogs had no problem finding that in the woods. Sea Bass? Never heard that one. If you had a concern you would test. Like I said earlier, pigs are so close to humans that we can use their heart valves and skin on our own bodies. Yet we regularly train dogs to ignore pig over here due to the precence of feral pigs in many areas we search. So if dogs can discriminate between pig and human decomp, it would seem fish decomp would be a peice of cake - but I have never tested sea bass. We have done water cadaver training in salt water with dead fish around and have never had an issue, though.

As far as I had researched before I thought it was only pigs that they can sometimes have an issue with. The above paragraph states they train their dogs to ignore pig, may we presume not all countries do that by the comment, that's what we do 'over here due to the precence of feral pigs?.'

So it appears that dogs should be able to differentiate between seabass and a cadaver scent. I will keep reading though, interesting post!

**Panda** Sun 13 May - 9:24

I think it has been established that Madeleine was last seen at 5.30pm on 3rd May . IMHO because we know the timelines are all over the place, what if
Gerry checked on 5a again between 9.15 and 10pm , found Madeleine dead and quickly put her body into the Tennis bag and hid it . Kate knew nothing of this and her reaction was real. The call wasn't received by the Police until 10.40pm so by the time they got there, say 11pm did not check outsidde the Apartment and while everyone was searching for Madeleine, Gerry slipped off on his own and moved Madeleine to a different hiding place, or even walked to nearby cliffs and threw the bag into the Sea. We know Oldfield and OB'rien searched together, presumably the Females stayed in their apartments , but I don't remember reading where Gerry was. the twins moved to the Payne's apartment , Kate would still have the Key to 5a so could have gone back on her own and tidied up the place

tigger Sun 13 May - 9:45

That really doesn't explain cadaver odour (takes min 90 mins) the cleaned apartment, the fact that the bag was photographed at a fairly late point in the proceedings - well after 11.00 p.m.
Gerry's presence seems to be accounted for during the whole of the evening.
Then the photograph with a digitally enhanced eye defect was produced and printed.
The tides are such that throwing a body into the sea is far too risky, apart from the fact that Amaral said it's next to impossible to throw anything into the sea due to the slope of the rock.
Amaral was thinking of a smaller item that might have been thrown down the rocks I think.
The GNR were present and searching until the small hours of the morning.
This timeline really doesn't work for me. Apart from the fact that if it is a surprise to find you first born dead on the floor - a complete plan to stage an abduction would be rather a stretch of the imagination in the time given.

mossman Sun 13 May - 9:56

It would not explain the findings in the boot either, if she were disposed of immediately.

From what I have read recently, cadaver odour can develop more quickly in small bodies, so it would necessarily have to be a 90 minute window.

Payne says he searched alone in the immediate aftermath, down by the rocks. The fact that he said this specifically makes me wonder why he said it.

I get the sense there was a certain degree of panic, because of how badly the story was put together. If they had time to pre-plan surely they would have come up with a more believable scenario ?

ELI Sun 13 May - 10:05

tigger wrote:Wasn't there a suspicion by the GNR that the towel had Gerry's scent on it? Because the dogs also traced a trip to the supermarket and back, which Gerry had made the previous day.
The pink blanket must already have disappeared for the scent dogs would have been much better informed with that item.

@Wintabells.
Once the seabass is cooked, I would assume that cadaverine will not be present. So unless they were in close contact at one time with an uncooked more than a week old sea bass - I really think it cannot be an issue.
As another poster said, they wouldn't be the only ones having this expensive game fish (v. expensive in the UK not in Portugal) in the whole of the resort.
If they had it in the Tapas they'd hardly be the only ones during the holiday with 7 others.

Once analysed, the DNA in the boot has no mention of any other substance than human DNA.

Seabass is typical of the half-witted excuses TM have come up with all along the line.

The GNR Tracker dogs and Human Search and Rescue Dogs were used on the 4th, 7th, 8th & 10th May. There were I think 10 different deployments during these days and the pink blanket, a towel and items of clothing were used in order for the dogs to retrieve a specific scent (target scent).

"It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.”

**Panda** Sun 13 May - 10:17

Morning Eli,

Wasn't it the case that the U.K. Dogs, were not brought to Portugal until about 3 weeks after Madeleine disappeared. The Renault was hired 25 days
after Madeleine disappeared for instance, so how safe would the the dogs findings be after such a long time.?

tigger Sun 13 May - 11:51

The dogs were brought to PdL at the end of July/beginning of August.

These highly trained dogs can detect cadaver odour decades after the event.

**Badboy** Sun 13 May - 12:01

ELI wrote:
Badboy wrote:
ELI wrote:
mossman wrote:Let us suppose it was sea bass, why then was it the McCann's belongings and apartment, and only theirs that had the scent ? Were they the only people in PDL eating sea bass ? Surely if it were sea bass then the dogs would have been going nuts in a seaside resort with seabass odour everywhere.

Yes I agree, the canine team checked other apartments so why was nothing detected in those places.
WASN'T IT DETECTED IN TWO OTHER APARTMENTS?

I'm not aware that the dogs detected anything in any other apartments.

OPERATION TASK CANINE DEPLOYMENTS 1-8 AUGUST 2007

All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

WASN'T 5J OR 5H WHICH DIDN'T BELONG TO THE 5 APARTMENT ALSO HAD CADAVERINE DETECTED?
THAT APARTMENT WAS RENTED BY AN UNKNOWN PARTY.

mossman Sun 13 May - 12:14

Badboy wrote:
ELI wrote:
Badboy wrote:
ELI wrote:
mossman wrote:Let us suppose it was sea bass, why then was it the McCann's belongings and apartment, and only theirs that had the scent ? Were they the only people in PDL eating sea bass ? Surely if it were sea bass then the dogs would have been going nuts in a seaside resort with seabass odour everywhere.

Yes I agree, the canine team checked other apartments so why was nothing detected in those places.
WASN'T IT DETECTED IN TWO OTHER APARTMENTS?

I'm not aware that the dogs detected anything in any other apartments.

OPERATION TASK CANINE DEPLOYMENTS 1-8 AUGUST 2007

All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

WASN'T 5J OR 5H WHICH DIDN'T BELONG TO THE 5 APARTMENT ALSO HAD CADAVERINE DETECTED?
THAT APARTMENT WAS RENTED BY AN UNKNOWN PARTY.

Was it not the other dogs, (i.e not Eddie and Keela) who alerted at the door of another apartment. They were the usual sniffer dogs, they trace for live scent. Indeed I think it is these dogs who become unreliable after a certain period of time. Unlike the cadaver dogs, who can scent for what seems to be an unlimited time afterwards, the live scent only remains reliable for a short time afterwards.

I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.

**Panda** Sun 13 May - 12:40

tigger wrote:The dogs were brought to PdL at the end of July/beginning of August.

These highly trained dogs can detect cadaver odour decades after the event.

So the dogs examined the Car, t shirt , apartment 3 months after Madeleine disappeared????? The Car was the one hired by the McCanns 25 days after Madeleine disappeared and the excuse for the blood was Gerry's Sister saying they had been shopping and the blood was caused by meat. So how
come the FSS identified the McCann Family DNA except for Madeleine because they had nothing to compare it to. Why couldn't Gerry go Home and
find another sample of Madeleine's DNA from her bedroom, there would have been plenty of toys, books, etc.

ELI Sun 13 May - 15:54

Panda wrote:

Morning Eli,

Wasn't it the case that the U.K. Dogs, were not brought to Portugal until about 3 weeks after Madeleine disappeared. The Renault was hired 25 days
after Madeleine disappeared for instance, so how safe would the the dogs findings be after such a long time.?

hi Panda,

Tests have proven that residual scent from a cadaver (the scent given off during decomposition) will last in a building with minimum environmental influences or human disturbance for at least 1 Year, even after the objects where the scent source originated had been removed .
However the dogs are trained to detect human remains which can be years old.

ELI Sun 13 May - 15:58

mossman wrote:
Badboy wrote:
ELI wrote:
Badboy wrote:
ELI wrote:

Yes I agree, the canine team checked other apartments so why was nothing detected in those places.
WASN'T IT DETECTED IN TWO OTHER APARTMENTS?

I'm not aware that the dogs detected anything in any other apartments.

OPERATION TASK CANINE DEPLOYMENTS 1-8 AUGUST 2007

All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

WASN'T 5J OR 5H WHICH DIDN'T BELONG TO THE 5 APARTMENT ALSO HAD CADAVERINE DETECTED?
THAT APARTMENT WAS RENTED BY AN UNKNOWN PARTY.

Was it not the other dogs, (i.e not Eddie and Keela) who alerted at the door of another apartment. They were the usual sniffer dogs, they trace for live scent. Indeed I think it is these dogs who become unreliable after a certain period of time. Unlike the cadaver dogs, who can scent for what seems to be an unlimited time afterwards, the live scent only remains reliable for a short time afterwards.

I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.

I think it was 5J the other dogs showed interest in and which was searched mossman. All the dogs I believe on 4 different days, about 10 seperate deployments using 3 different items to get the target scent followed the same scent trail.

“ The trailing dog is directed to find a specific person by following minute particles of human tissue or skin cells cast off by the person. These heavier-than-air particles, which contain this person's scent, will normally be close to the ground or on nearby foliage, so the trailing dog will frequently have its "nose the ground," unlike the air scent dog. “

“All humans, alive or dead, constantly emit microscopic particles bearing human scent”

gillyspot Sun 13 May - 16:14

Can I just point out at this juncture that Eddie was trained on human bodies in US (highly unusual but true)

""(PC GRIMES) has deployed police dog 'Eddie' to train on human remains in the US. This training has been valuable as it is not possible to utilise human remains in the UK. A full report from the F.B.I. to document his training and operational deployments whilst in America remains pending""

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20110186

Not a mention of "seabass" anywhere.

mossman Sun 13 May - 18:14

ELI wrote:
mossman wrote:
Badboy wrote:
ELI wrote:
Badboy wrote:
WASN'T IT DETECTED IN TWO OTHER APARTMENTS?

I'm not aware that the dogs detected anything in any other apartments.

OPERATION TASK CANINE DEPLOYMENTS 1-8 AUGUST 2007

All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

WASN'T 5J OR 5H WHICH DIDN'T BELONG TO THE 5 APARTMENT ALSO HAD CADAVERINE DETECTED?
THAT APARTMENT WAS RENTED BY AN UNKNOWN PARTY.

Was it not the other dogs, (i.e not Eddie and Keela) who alerted at the door of another apartment. They were the usual sniffer dogs, they trace for live scent. Indeed I think it is these dogs who become unreliable after a certain period of time. Unlike the cadaver dogs, who can scent for what seems to be an unlimited time afterwards, the live scent only remains reliable for a short time afterwards.

I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.

I think it was 5J the other dogs showed interest in and which was searched mossman. All the dogs I believe on 4 different days, about 10 seperate deployments using 3 different items to get the target scent followed the same scent trail.

“ The trailing dog is directed to find a specific person by following minute particles of human tissue or skin cells cast off by the person. These heavier-than-air particles, which contain this person's scent, will normally be close to the ground or on nearby foliage, so the trailing dog will frequently have its "nose the ground," unlike the air scent dog. “

“All humans, alive or dead, constantly emit microscopic particles bearing human scent”

Thanks Eli, so it was different dogs, not Eddie and Keela. I have no doubt whatsoever in their capabilities. I have read as much as I have time to read about how these dogs work, primarily to make sure I understood the possibilities of error etc on their part. They are key to this obviously, so I thought it important to be clear about how they work.

For me, there are too many alerts in different places and only in relation to the McCanns. That says a lot. However what speaks volumes for me is Gerry's attempt to toally discredit them. Even if you do not believe in their science or if you have doubts about how they work, if it were your child they were alerting to, the last thing you do is discredit them. You are surely very worried, it is a terrible moment to be told of the dogs findings, it takes away another part of that glimmer of hope that she is alive that you have been holding on to. But not with the McCanns, no straight away they have an excuse for the findings and they rubbish the dogs.

I would like to see Gerry McCann get on a plane immediately after an explosive dog alerts to the possibility of a bomb being on board. Would he be first in the line to walk up those steps shouting that the dogs are notoriously unreliable ?

At the end of the day, the dogs looking for a live scent were not very successful in obtaining a trail to follow. The dogs detecting cadavour and blood provided many more alerts. So the live dogs found little, the cadaver dog found lots. As a parent, I would be near breaking point with these facts. Not talking about rotting meat, dirty nappies and the like. Simple really.

jejune Sun 13 May - 18:56

gillyspot wrote:Can I just point out at this juncture that Eddie was trained on human bodies in US (highly unusual but true)

""(PC GRIMES) has deployed police dog 'Eddie' to train on human remains in the US. This training has been valuable as it is not possible to utilise human remains in the UK. A full report from the F.B.I. to document his training and operational deployments whilst in America remains pending""

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20110186

Not a mention of "seabass" anywhere.

I was going to post about Eddie and his training in the USA, before I spotted this post. I'm pretty sure (although I can't give a link) that I've read that Eddie is one of a few search dogs who've been trained with actual dead bodies, rather than on death scent, etc. He's a very reliable expert when it comes to deciding whether there's been a dead body in the vicinity. The problem is, he doesn't speak human language, and he can't offer up his opinion in court.

Wintabells Sun 13 May - 19:40

Very interesting discussion.

So, the consensus seems to be that Eddie could not have been distracted by other scents like seabass, and that in any case, if he was capable of alerting to fish scents, he'd have alerted in other locations, given the amount of fish eating that must have been going on in the resort.

Also, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that seabass does emit cadaverine, unless it's going off.... so I'm not sure where this notion orginated?

**kitti** Mon 14 May - 7:35

How can seabass be in the wardrobe or the wheel well off the scenic?

bill516 Mon 14 May - 8:21

Cos it had no plaice left to go.

Guest Mon 14 May - 8:45

bill516 wrote:Cos it had no plaice left to go.

Good cod, that's awful!

mossman Mon 14 May - 9:00

kitti wrote:How can seabass be in the wardrobe or the wheel well off the scenic?

Or indeed the flower bed. Perhaps Sean was playing with the sea bass over a period of weeks and eventually they decided to throw the fish out, transporting him in the boot of the car to the dump. Yup, that is a possibility.

Try as I might, I cannot find any reason to doubt the cadaver dog. As I said before, I read as much as I can about them, primarily to see if they can be trusted and how they work. It is such an important factor in this case, in the interest of fairness I wanted to be sure what has been written about them is factually correct.

Quite simply, I believe them, I have no reason to doubt them and can find nothing to suggest they have a proven track record of being unreliable. As usual the McCann team will attack the vulnerable. These dogs cannot speak for themselves, but neither have they a personal interest in the case, neither do they pass judgement or hold grudges.

I heard with my own ears Kate McCann say there were posters of Madeleine on only the Scenic car so hence the dogs alert. That was enough for me. Perhaps Eddie and Keela are internet nutters, who can type and join forums.

The McCanns would do well to understand the dog has not and never will say it was Madeleine. Unfortunately, that step is up to SY who I fear will not carry out their part of the investigation with the same diligence and loyalty as Eddie and Keela.

As far as I am concerned the onus is on the McCanns to prove the dogs wrong, not for the dogs to prove themselves right. Until such time as Madeleine turns up alive, nothing will persuade me there was not a cadaver in apartment 5a, scent on cuddle cat, scent on the clothes and something terrible in the boot of the car and given that Madeleine would appear to be the only person missing from 5a, there is a strong possiblity the scent relates to her.

I would love to be wrong and I would love the dogs to be wrong but try as I might I cannot find anything that would suggest that is a strong possibility.

Wintabells Mon 14 May - 11:34

kitti wrote:How can seabass be in the wardrobe or the wheel well off the scenic?

Wardrobe could have had seabass'd clothing stored in it, wheel well got fish juice dripped it it when they brought the shopping home, says witness for the defence.

Wintabells Mon 14 May - 11:38

Even if the dogs were wrong, I still believe that something fatal happened in 5a.

I assumed that Kate's comment about the Scenic being the only car with posters plastered all over it was to insinuate that the dogs were influenced by M Grimes, not that the dogs could read.... but perhaps not *rolls eyes*.

mossman Mon 14 May - 11:56

Wintabells wrote:Even if the dogs were wrong, I still believe that something fatal happened in 5a.

I assumed that Kate's comment about the Scenic being the only car with posters plastered all over it was to insinuate that the dogs were influenced by M Grimes, not that the dogs could read.... but perhaps not *rolls eyes*.

oops I never thought of that, sorry Kate Can we talk about Seabass again? - Page 2 294124

The cadaver scent will transfer and it seems to happen very quickly. But the fish would need to be 9 to 11 days old before starting to develop the odour - a possiblity I suppose, but god he would be fairly stinky to have in your fridge.

The boot had bodily fluid that was tested and human so the fish was not in there.

bill516 Mon 14 May - 13:01

I can see there are no flies on you mossman unlike there would have been on the fish.

tigger Mon 14 May - 13:25

mossman wrote:
Wintabells wrote:Even if the dogs were wrong, I still believe that something fatal happened in 5a.

I assumed that Kate's comment about the Scenic being the only car with posters plastered all over it was to insinuate that the dogs were influenced by M Grimes, not that the dogs could read.... but perhaps not *rolls eyes*.

oops I never thought of that, sorry Kate

The cadaver scent will transfer and it seems to happen very quickly. But the fish would need to be 9 to 11 days old before starting to develop the odour - a possiblity I suppose, but god he would be fairly stinky to have in your fridge.

The boot had bodily fluid that was tested and human so the fish was not in there.

Acutally, if you look at the video, the posters were on the back and not visible from the direction that Grime came from as the car was parked with the boot against the wall.

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