David Payne's Statement to Leicester Police

Vol. XIII, Pages 3909-3915

To: Ricard Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

I read carefully the written statements given by David Payne but was not able to extract any other information besides what is already known.

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann’s apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. Similarly he does not indicate for how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and he cannot remember if anyone else was there.

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.

He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.

For many of the questions, he does not give a complete answer, affirming simply that he has already given this information/declaration to the Portuguese police.

I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband.

Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with “they conform to my earlier deposition” or some similar statement.

============================

This is the Statement research worldwide wanted, saying it had never been sent to the PJ, I'm not surprised , it is nothing like the Tapas 9 statements to the PJ.

I found this in mcannfiles..........you only have to look at the first words from Payne " Saw Madeleine at 5pm......according to the JP interview it was 6.30pm ????

Someone needs to go through and make two lists, one from the LP interview and one from the original interview....any offers?



This is taken from Blacksmith's new blog. A long piece to copy and paste, but this bit about the David Payne visit is interesting reading, (the different versions) as is the whole article......................

The David Payne Visit — Multiple Worlds?


The visit, the “last sighting” of Madeleine McCann by someone outside the family, remains highly controversial and has been the subject of exhaustive debate on the internet and elsewhere.

The questions about it arise at the very beginning since it was not mentioned by David Payne, Gerry or Kate McCann in their initial police statements, despite Kate McCann’s repeated assertions in the book that she had told the police “everything”. The first reference to it comes, oddly, not from either of the individuals involved but from Gerry McCann, in his May 10 statement:

“David went to visit Kate and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, which he refused.”

Note the initial locution, “David went to visit Kate and the children”: there is no mention of any reason for the visit. Unfortunately the PJ did not hear what the principals had to say: neither Payne nor Kate McCann were present for that second round of interviews. Kate had cried off with stress; quite how Payne avoided questioning is unclear. Whatever, the result was that the Portuguese police received no information about the claimed visit from one of the participants until Kate McCann was questioned over four months later, on September 6 2007. And they still had no statement from Payne; in fact they were unable to compare his account with that of Kate McCann until they listened in to his rogatory interview in April 2008.

Kate McCann’s September 6 statement runs thus:

“While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly.”

She now departs from direct knowledge deriving from her own experience, as she often does on important matters, adding helpfully:

“David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place.”

Then, reverting from hearsay to evidence, she concluded:

“David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t even actually enter the flat, he remained at the balcony door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.”

This was the first appearance of the “Gerry asked Payne...” story — after four months! — and it was followed some twenty four hours later by the same story from Gerry himself in his arguido interview.

Two weeks later, with the couple safely back in England and during that muffled and murky period when they and the lawyers were using the media to explore their vulnerabilities, a lengthy and carefully contrived leak was given to the London Times by Clarence Mitchell. The story purported to be about disagreements between the McCanns as to how far to co-operate with the PJ but buried half way into the story we find this:

“Last week, however, a senior police source told a Portuguese newspaper that officers were still suspicious about the McCanns’ movements during the “missing six hours” before Madeleine’s disappearance.

Sources close to the family [Clarence Mitchell] say that David Payne, one of the holiday party, saw Madeleine being put to bed when he visited the McCann apartment at 7PM. Previously the last confirmed sighting of Madeleine was at 2.29PM when a photograph of her and Gerry was taken at the swimming pool.

Kate and Gerry McCann believe Payne’s testimony will be crucial in proving their innocence. They arrived at the tapas bar at 8.30PM, which would leave just an hour and a half in which they are supposed to have killed their daughter and disposed of the body.

A source close to the legal team [this was also Mitchell] said: ‘If they were responsible for killing their daughter, how would they have done so and hidden the body in that time? There is a very limited window of opportunity.’”

So the story had developed even further. Note that Payne himself, after almost six months, has still told the Portuguese police absolutely nothing about the visit. The only reference to it that he ever seems to have made comes in a curiously unsatisfactory email from the Leicester police to their Portuguese counterparts accompanying some forwarded statements. Detective Constable Marshall wrote that Payne had stated informally:

“...that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 [probably an error for 7PM] on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.”

Well!


The situation, therefore, was that Payne’s version of this visit was still open and, as it were, up for grabs. But not yet and certainly not for grabbing via the newspapers by the McCanns and their spokesman.As we have seen from his ingenious defence of the “checking” Payne has an instinct for keeping his options open. The claims were left standing, without rebuttal, for several weeks and perhaps there was a hope somewhere that it reflected Payne’s acquiescence in the story and the altered timescale. Not likely.

In late October, strangely enough on the same date that Detective Constable Marshall sent his email along with the Gaspar statements to Portugal, he made the extremely rare move of communicating via journalists himself, speaking effusively to the Daily Mail about Kate McCann and her lack of problems with her children [media code: no, she wasn’t nutty or stressed-out enough to have whacked the child and accidentally killed her]. But 7PM was now firmly out: in that same article Mitchell and the McCanns had to reverse themselves, now stating “David Payne saw Madeleine at around 6.30pm.” Point made.

In April 2008, just under a year after the child’s disappearance, David Payne was finally compelled to talk about the visit, making a statement to Leicester police as part of the rogatory interviews. The Portuguese police representatives watched the televised proceedings from behind a screen. Whether Lusitanian guffaws of disbelief resounded from their vantage point is not disclosed but Payne and Kate McCann seemed to be not just on different visits but different planets.

Q: Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go and, would you mind checking at Kate?

DP: I had to go back to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing tennis in, and err so he knew that I’d walk up that by and past so he said oh why don’t you err, you know can you just pop in on the way, the way up...[fails to describe reason for visit]

KM again: David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area,

Q: Did you open the door? Or was it already open?

DP: I think it was already open.

KM: This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly.


Q: Did you actually go into the apartment?

DP: I did.

Q: Or did you do the conversation from the door?

DP: No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.

KM: He didn’t even actually enter the flat; he remained at the balcony door.

Q: Okay, so now what I’m gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.
DP: I’m afraid that is, you know I’m, I cannot recall at all. I know that’s, you’d think that’d be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn’t say exactly what they were wearing. Err…

Q: But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example?

DP: I can’t, no.

KM: She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door.

Q: I’m gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for.

DP: In their apartment, it, it, I’d say three minutes, five maximum.”

KM: David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds.

Q: When you finished ...did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine?

DP: "Yeah, err yeah, I haven’t mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I’d certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything’s fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you’ve got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer...[fails to give reason for visit]

KM: ...asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area.

What can one say? It doesn’t corroborate and it doesn’t tally: there might have been visits to apartment 5A by David Payne or other members of the group that day but the written evidence shows that the one described by Payne and the McCanns did not take place.

Dangerous waters! What does Kate have to say now? Very little. In the book she falls back on copying out her September 6 statement:

“At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room.”

But then she uses words that aren’t in the statement: “David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me,” which quite cleverly attempts to resolve the open/closed doors discrepancy as well as shading another question —inside the doors or outside the doors? Neither! He is in the doorway, head popping.


Having dipped her toes she moves rapidly back to the much safer territory of what others had said:

“The others had met up with Gerry at the tennis courts and he’d mentioned we were thinking of bringing the kids to the play area. David had nipped up to see if he could give me a hand taking them down. As they were all ready for bed and seemed content with their books I decided they were probably past the stage of needing any more activity. So he went back to the tennis while I quickly dressed and sat down on the couch with the children.”

One wonders which lawyers were involved in the “popping” paragraph because, by altering her statement, Kate McCann has provided internal evidence that she is covertly attempting to smooth away inconsistencies that are hazardous for her rather than trying to throw light on the truth as she vowed to do. Oh, and the bit about Payne only staying for thirty seconds has somehow gone missing



[snipped from article]

Full article here:

they couldn't even agree what they said to each other

http://twitpic.com/1l86l8

weissnicht wrote:they couldn't even agree what they said to each other

[url=http://twitpic.com/1l86l8

http://twitpic.com/1l86l8[/quote[/url]]

the more we read weissnicht the harder it is to understand why a recon wasn't DEMANDED of the Tapas 9 .!!!! The PJ let them off very lightly once it was established that an abduction wasn't feasible. These were Professional people for goodness sake dealing with important matters. Was there anything more important than remembering what they said and did at a specific time that night.?

Panda wrote:

weissnicht wrote:they couldn't even agree what they said to each other

[url=http://twitpic.com/1l86l8

http://twitpic.com/1l86l8[/quote[/url]]

the more we read weissnicht the harder it is to understand why a recon wasn't DEMANDED of the Tapas 9 .!!!! The PJ let them off very lightly once it was established that an abduction wasn't feasible. These were Professional people for goodness sake dealing with important matters. Was there anything more important than remembering what they said and did at a specific time that night.?

Yes, you are right. but don't forget, there was pressure on PJ from highest level, to drop investigating tapas 9. And that is one of the reason why I think pedophilia is the reason for cover up. (not the reason why Maddie died. Could be ...could not) Cover up. Payne called child protection in UK 3th of may middle of the night. Somebody he knew there. Surprise..no! And then Jim Gamble run of to PDL (not part of his job, not at all) and Mark Williams is one of biggest mccann supporters...etc etc etc. Go figure.

[quote="weissnicht"]

Panda wrote:

weissnicht wrote:they couldn't even agree what they said to each other

http://twitpic.com/1l86l8[/quote]

the more we read weissnicht the harder it is to understand why a recon wasn't DEMANDED of the Tapas 9 .!!!! The PJ let them off very lightly once it was established that an abduction wasn't feasible. These were Professional people for goodness sake dealing with important matters. Was there anything more important than remembering what they said and did at a specific time that night.?

Yes, you are right. but don't forget, there was pressure on PJ from highest level, to drop investigating tapas 9.

so you have to wonder why the Portugese did not tell Blair/Brown where to go. Britain and Portugal go a long way as allies and the McCann case has done a lot of damage to that relationship.

[quote="Panda"]

weissnicht wrote:

Panda wrote:

weissnicht wrote:they couldn't even agree what they said to each other

http://twitpic.com/1l86l8[/quote]

the more we read weissnicht the harder it is to understand why a recon wasn't DEMANDED of the Tapas 9 .!!!! The PJ let them off very lightly once it was established that an abduction wasn't feasible. These were Professional people for goodness sake dealing with important matters. Was there anything more important than remembering what they said and did at a specific time that night.?

Yes, you are right. but don't forget, there was pressure on PJ from highest level, to drop investigating tapas 9.

so you have to wonder why the Portugese did not tell Blair/Brown where to go. Britain and Portugal go a long way as allies and the McCann case has done a lot of damage to that relationship.

Socrates and Brown came to an agreement, that's why Amaral was sacked. A trade or defence deal was being completed at the time and Socrates had taken a bribe - well before 3/5/07. However it was easy to manipulate him so the PJ didn't stand a chance.
Brown isn't that squeeky clean either but I'm not talking about money.

Agreed, too many inconsistencies for this visit to have taken place.

From Kate's 4 May statement: "Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband."

Why would Kate take a 5 minute shower at 6:30 and then later take a bath after putting the kids to bed? Surely she wouldn't need to bathe twice within an hour.

Also, from Kate's 6 Sep statement: "They arrived at the apartment at around 5:40 p.m., earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00 p.m. At the apartment they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00 p.m. Gerry went to the tennis courts, right after the children had finished their bath...After the children’s bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, and gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness."

So, apparently at around 6pm Kate and Gerry jointly decided that the children were too tired and would not be going to tennis that night. However, only a half an hour to an hour later, Gerry had completely forgotten about this joint decision and decided that the kids should go to tennis.

Further, why would Kate need help getting 3 children to the tennis courts anyway? Wasn't it like dining in their back garden? This seems a little farfetched that Gerry would send someone else to fetch his kids who are too tired to leave the apartment and escort them a mere 100 m or so to the tennis courts. Especially when that someone was on his way back to his own apartment to gather his gear.

Also from the 6 Sep statement: "As the children were asleep, she dried her hair and put on make up. Gerry maybe had a shower and they sat on one of the sofas in the living room, she doesn’t know which one."

What happened to the bath that she claimed to have taken in her earlier statement? Also, Gerry maybe had a shower? Hadn't he just returned from playing tennis all afternoon? Surely he would have showered! This was the best she could come up with?

It's a wonder the Tapas 8 (exclude Fiona's Mother) havm't grown noses like Pinocchio

However, If a deal was done between Brown and Socrates why didn't they close the case then, not shelve it.?The Greeks didn't do much to help Ben's Mother. After over a year and spending over E 2 million , plus constant interference and lack of co-operation from thr McCanns, the PJ could be forgiven for closing , because Madeleine was not even a Portugese citizen.

Panda wrote:It's a wonder the Tapas 8 (exclude Fiona's Mother) havm't grown noses like Pinocchio

However, If a deal was done between Brown and Socrates why didn't they close the case then, not shelve it.?The Greeks didn't do much to help Ben's Mother. After over a year and spending over E 2 million , plus constant interference and lack of co-operation from thr McCanns, the PJ could be forgiven for closing , because Madeleine was not even a Portugese citizen.

The due process of law could not be stopped, even by the prime minister, Portugal is a democracy. The McCanns only wanted the 'good' publicity to come out. In the UK, which is also a democracy, they have largely succeeded thanks to the libel laws and the way the press was 'persuaded' to print the gospel according to TM.
Only the internet and twitter remain open to genuine opinions. Here we can give our opinion on all matters, I'm very thankful for that and for the people who set up these sites and monitor them, because without them we would not be here. I'd not have a clue how to do this and I understand it isn't exactly free either, so here's to MM!

tigger wrote:

Panda wrote:It's a wonder the Tapas 8 (exclude Fiona's Mother) havm't grown noses like Pinocchio

However, If a deal was done between Brown and Socrates why didn't they close the case then, not shelve it.?The Greeks didn't do much to help Ben's Mother. After over a year and spending over E 2 million , plus constant interference and lack of co-operation from thr McCanns, the PJ could be forgiven for closing , because Madeleine was not even a Portugese citizen.

The due process of law could not be stopped, even by the prime minister, Portugal is a democracy. The McCanns only wanted the 'good' publicity to come out. In the UK, which is also a democracy, they have largely succeeded thanks to the libel laws and the way the press was 'persuaded' to print the gospel according to TM.
Only the internet and twitter remain open to genuine opinions. Here we can give our opinion on all matters, I'm very thankful for that and for the people who set up these sites and monitor them, because without them we would not be here. I'd not have a clue how to do this and I understand it isn't exactly free either, so here's to MM!

Yes tigger, I second that and judging by the number of visitors MM is popular with non Members as well. The design is very good but maybe coming into overload with regards to the number of posts. I occasionally get messages from forumotion on this subject, does anyone else? Maybe a lot of the old topics can be deleted now and not so many duplications of the same topic. I would happily pay a one-off Membership Fee..

It would be a shame if any topics on Maddie and the McCanns were removed. I think quite a lot of the old news items could be deleted and some members' discussions on other topics.

tigger wrote:It would be a shame if any topics on Maddie and the McCanns were removed. I think quite a lot of the old news items could be deleted and some members' discussions on other topics.

No, we shouldn't delete anything to do with Madeleine....that is the reason for the forum.maybe a filing system that everyone adheres to, for instance, there have been threads on the Daily News and the same topic on UK News, etc. My very first job was as a filing Clerk and I was taught how to file correctly which is why I get a bit Bossy when I see threads all over the place.

Kate McCann’s September 6 statement runs thus:

“While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly.”

She now departs from direct knowledge deriving from her own experience, as she often does on important matters, adding helpfully:

“David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place.”

Then, reverting from hearsay to evidence, she concluded:

“David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t even actually enter the flat, he remained at the balcony door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.”

===============================

Now we know that according to Gerry David was talking to him and he asked him to go to 5a and ask Kate if she wanted to bring the children to the Court.

1. Kate says David called around 6.30pm, Gerry's Tennis Lesson finished about 7pm , the children, by his own admission on T.V. were in bed by 7.30pm so what was the point of that?How was Kate expected to manage without a buggy.?

2. Kate and David's timelines disagree and she says he was only there for 30 seconds, David says he saw the children in their Pyjamas sitting on the Settee ....all that from the balcony door???

Panda wrote:
He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann’s apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry.

Oh, Gerrys in the apartment in this statement, not on the tennis courts asking Payne to check on Kate and the kids then?

How they're still free is mind boggling.

Mind boggling isn't the word. How many people can you think of who have given so many different versions of the same story and haven't been tackled about it.

Isn't there another comment by Paynes saying he and Fiona went to 5a at 7pm.???

The more you read the more you wonder why the PJ didn't assert some authority and order a recon much earlier, they missed a big opportunity . The question now is,WHY are the Tapas 8 statements at such variance? Because they had something to hide? They couldn't have had that much to drink that night because the table was booked for 8.30pm and it appears they all arrived by 8pm , had a drink at the Bar, drank 4 bottles of wine during the Meal, not much between 8.30pm and 10pm for their memories to differ so much.

Panda wrote:Isn't there another comment by Paynes saying he and Fiona went to 5a at 7pm.???

The more you read the more you wonder why the PJ didn't assert some authority and order a recon much earlier, they missed a big opportunity . The question now is,WHY are the Tapas 8 statements at such variance? Because they had something to hide? They couldn't have had that much to drink that night because the table was booked for 8.30pm and it appears they all arrived by 8pm , had a drink at the Bar, drank 4 bottles of wine during the Meal, not much between 8.30pm and 10pm for their memories to differ so much.

http://truthformadeleine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=448

But even here the versions do not even minimally coincide: David says he saw Madeleine and the twins and defined the moment as a vision of three immaculate angels. David is, therefore, the last person, besides the parents, to see Madeleine, as far as we know.

- HOWEVER, according to Fiona Payne, Gerry was not playing tennis. He was at home with Kate. And David and Fiona went TOGETHER to 5A to see Kate and Gerry.

I can't find anything in FP's statement to support this, however from her first statement.....'The interviewee has never been in Madeleine's family's apartment.'

ann_chovey,

For 8 Professional people who make important decisions in their working lives they sure were lacking in total recall.

Stuart Prior had no business telling Rachel Mapilly that "no useful purpose " would be served by a recon.