Matt Oldfields check ?

jassi wrote:Can the police do reconstructions by computer simulation ?
It woulds seem a glaringly obvious thing to do if they have the technology and given the sophistication of video games, I'd have thought the technology might well be there.

Good point Jassi , the problem is, redwood has discounted the timellines, he could have arranged a simulation and put not only the Tapas 9, but allthe other statements, especially Smith's . I can't remember seeing Gerry.s statement about when he was searching.

DavidA wrote:Can I check something here? I am confused. Maybe it is important, maybe not.

Is it that the 'official' events are that Gerry went to check immediately after Matt Oldfield's check (where Matt only listened), but then also says did not actually see Madeleine in bed?

Gerry's statement (this is straight after Matt's 'listening only' check I presume)

Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He then went to the toilet, where he remained for a few instants, left the apartment, and then crossed ways with someone with whom he had played tennis, who had a baby buggy, also a British citizen, with whom he had a brief conversation. He then returned to the restaurant. At around 9.30 pm, his friend MATT (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and on his way he went into the deponent's apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked. He went into the room, saw the twins and didn’t even notice if Madeleine was there, as everything was quiet, the shutters closed and the bedroom door half-open as usual. Then MATT went back to the restaurant.


e.t.a. Gerry's second statement 10th May....now enters via patio door.

He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings. Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were deeply asleep. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, then went to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the shutters, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the living room.

It was the 9.30pm check by Kate that Oldfield offered to do because he was checking on his child as well. He first of all said he went into the Bedroom , then changed his statement to say he only listened at the Window. Gerry is the one, why use the Front door key when he knew the Patio the PJ made a big mistake in not having a recon while the McCanns were in PDL Door would be unlocked. Why suggest he felt as if there was someone behind the door, yet not LOOK. !!1 Also, hadn't he just come out of 5a via the Patio Door, and was by the side gate when he went across to speak to Jez.

Panda wrote:

It was the 9.30pm check by Kate that Oldfield offered to do because he was checking on his child as well. He first of all said he went into the Bedroom , then changed his statement to say he only listened at the Window. Gerry is the one, why use the Front door key when he knew the Patio the PJ made a big mistake in not having a recon while the McCanns were in PDL Door would be unlocked. Why suggest he felt as if there was someone behind the door, yet not LOOK. !!1 Also, hadn't he just come out of 5a via the Patio  Door, and was by the side gate when he went across to speak to Jez.

Yes this post and some others above make some very interesting points. I think Matt Oldfield and Gerry need to be asked again why they would go to the apartment and not look at all the children. This seems to be a very unnatural thing to do.

DavidA wrote:

Panda wrote:

It was the 9.30pm check by Kate that Oldfield offered to do because he was checking on his child as well. He first of all said he went into the Bedroom , then changed his statement to say he only listened at the Window. Gerry is the one, why use the Front door key when he knew the Patio the PJ made a big mistake in not having a recon while the McCanns were in PDL Door would be unlocked. Why suggest he felt as if there was someone behind the door, yet not LOOK. !!1 Also, hadn't he just come out of 5a via the Patio  Door, and was by the side gate when he went across to speak to Jez.

Yes this post and some others above make some very interesting points. I think Matt Oldfield and Gerry need to be asked again why they would go to the apartment and not look at all the children. This seems to be a very unnatural thing to do.

I think Matt Oldfield listened at the window at an earlier check, but if you read the comment I posted earlier, you will see from Oldfield's statement of May 4th 2007, that he said he had gone into the McCanns' apartment at around 9.35pm. He got the number of windows wrong. In his rogatory statement, he got the colour of the curtains wrong.

When my nippers were the age those poor little kids were I used to check they were breathing. Go up and touch them to make sure they were warm etc.
My first child died of 'cot death' or 'Sudden Infant Death'.
The McCanns must have been aware of this possibility surely, being doctors and all.
They should all be ashamed of themselves as parents.
Especially Mampilly. Disgraceful.

My sympathies to you The Slave about the loss of your first child.
 
What a silly thing it was for Kate to say that she thought it was safe to leave her children as who would ever have thought that someone would walk in and take one.
 
The reason that people don't leave their children unattended is not because of the billion to one chance that a random paedophile has been staking the place out, waiting for his chance to pounce.
 
It's because so many every day things can happen; children being sick, suddenly becoming ill (my son used to get frequent throat infections which sent his temperature rocketing within minutes), waking up crying, getting up and wandering around and finding all manner of dangerous household objects - etc.
 
A reminder of the McCanns being anxious to promote the idea that they were checking only every half an hour. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3eAJnjiD6g

What can have been so bad that it was preferable to present themselves as selfish, useless parents?

AnnaEsse wrote:I think Matt Oldfield listened at the window at an earlier check, but if you read the comment I posted earlier, you will see from Oldfield's statement of May 4th 2007, that he said he had gone into the McCanns' apartment at around 9.35pm. He got the number of windows wrong. In his rogatory statement, he got the colour of the curtains wrong.

 
 
This is my understanding too, that Oldfield listened at the window at the 9:05 check and then went in the apartment but did not enter the children's bedroom at the 9:25 pm check. Oldfield checking on his kids at 20 minute intervals, but then not bothering to check on them at 10 pm when Kate went for her check does not make any sense. Nor does Kate not offering to return the favor to check on Oldfield's child when she conducts her check at 10 pm.
 
As stated above, it is completely unnatural (and unbelievable) for Oldfield to enter the McCann apartment during the 9:25 pm check. It was out of his way (as opposed to a listening check) and only 10-15 minutes after Gerry had allegedly just checked. It would have made much more sense for him to do a listening check outside the window at this time, but in doing so he would have had to have noticed the window open in order to coincide with the Tanner bundleman/eggman sighting.
 
Oldield's alleged check could hold the key to this mystery. Nothing about his checks make any sense, and SY needs to determine why he was lying about his checks. It is also interesting to note that the purpose of his alleged 9:05 pm check was changed from checking on the kids in his witness statement to hurrying up the Paynes in his rogatory. Why did his story change to hurrying up the Paynes? Perhaps because a check just 20 minutes after arriving at the table doesn't make any sense.
 
8:45 arrival, 9:05 check, 9:25 pm check and then no check at 10 pm!

jinvta wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:I think Matt Oldfield listened at the window at an earlier check, but if you read the comment I posted earlier, you will see from Oldfield's statement of May 4th 2007, that he said he had gone into the McCanns' apartment at around 9.35pm. He got the number of windows wrong. In his rogatory statement, he got the colour of the curtains wrong.

 
 
This is my understanding too, that Oldfield listened at the window at the 9:05 check and then went in the apartment but did not enter the children's bedroom at the 9:25 pm check. Oldfield checking on his kids at 20 minute intervals, but then not bothering to check on them at 10 pm when Kate went for her check does not make any sense. Nor does Kate not offering to return the favor to check on Oldfield's child when she conducts her check at 10 pm.
 
As stated above, it is completely unnatural (and unbelievable) for Oldfield to enter the McCann apartment during the 9:25 pm check. It was out of his way (as opposed to a listening check) and only 10-15 minutes after Gerry had allegedly just checked. It would have made much more sense for him to do a listening check outside the window at this time, but in doing so he would have had to have noticed the window open in order to coincide with the Tanner bundleman/eggman sighting.
 
Oldield's alleged check could hold the key to this mystery. Nothing about his checks make any sense, and SY needs to determine why he was lying about his checks. It is also interesting to note that the purpose of his alleged 9:05 pm check was changed from checking on the kids in his witness statement to hurrying up the Paynes in his rogatory. Why did his story change to hurrying up the Paynes? Perhaps because a check just 20 minutes after arriving at the table doesn't make any sense.
 
8:45 arrival, 9:05 check, 9:25 pm check and then no check at 10 pm!

Matthew's rogatory interview, talking about his first check at 9/9.05 when he listened at the windows:

..so I listened outside our shutters and went along to their shutter and had a listen out there, not because I'd been asked to, but, or it's not the sort of thing you think about, it's just kind of, erm,".

4078 "You thought you might as well?"

Reply "So I thought I might as well and I can report back and they can be, you know, be reassured that everything was okay. And we talked a lot in the previous interviews about what state the shutters were in, whether they were, and they were all definitely down, there's three shutters, you know, there's, you know, two, and they're all at the same level, there was no, I would have noticed if they were, if one was up and the rest were down, it would have looked odd".

Matthew's rogatory interview, concerning the shutter when he visited the McCanns' apartment at 9.25/9.30pm:


So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I didn't check, I turned round and came back out, said all was quiet when I got back to the table and then we went on with food. Now the room was, we talked also in the interviews about how light the room was and whether I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because the curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like that. But the room seemed light, and we spent a lot of time talking about this, whether it could be light coming in from the street outside, but there was a light behind us in the room and for some reason I thought, I got the impression of light coming through the doorway from behind me, which is why I said that I thought perhaps the moon was out, erm, but there as no sort of, you know, it's a question of whether, there was no sort of slats of light coming through the back that particularly caught my eye. So I didn't specifically see the shutters and I couldn't say that they were definitely open, but certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet"

Slave, I am so sorry for your loss.

It makes me so mad that these little kids were so neglected by an entire group of parents who should have known better. Poor wee Maddie deserved much, much better and she is still being used and done a disservice to this day, it's tragic and it makes me so, so angry. All wee children should go to parents who will love and cherish them and never, ever, neglect or harm them.

jinvta wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:I think Matt Oldfield listened at the window at an earlier check, but if you read the comment I posted earlier, you will see from Oldfield's statement of May 4th 2007, that he said he had gone into the McCanns' apartment at around 9.35pm. He got the number of windows wrong. In his rogatory statement, he got the colour of the curtains wrong.

 
 
This is my understanding too, that Oldfield listened at the window at the 9:05 check and then went in the apartment but did not enter the children's bedroom at the 9:25 pm check. Oldfield checking on his kids at 20 minute intervals, but then not bothering to check on them at 10 pm when Kate went for her check does not make any sense. Nor does Kate not offering to return the favor to check on Oldfield's child when she conducts her check at 10 pm.
 
As stated above, it is completely unnatural (and unbelievable) for Oldfield to enter the McCann apartment during the 9:25 pm check. It was out of his way (as opposed to a listening check) and only 10-15 minutes after Gerry had allegedly just checked. It would have made much more sense for him to do a listening check outside the window at this time, but in doing so he would have had to have noticed the window open in order to coincide with the Tanner bundleman/eggman sighting.
 
Oldield's alleged check could hold the key to this mystery. Nothing about his checks make any sense, and SY needs to determine why he was lying about his checks. It is also interesting to note that the purpose of his alleged 9:05 pm check was changed from checking on the kids in his witness statement to hurrying up the Paynes in his rogatory. Why did his story change to hurrying up the Paynes? Perhaps because a check just 20 minutes after arriving at the table doesn't make any sense.
 
8:45 arrival, 9:05 check, 9:25 pm check and then no check at 10 pm!

Yes, and this is what SY are getting at too when they say the timeline has changed. SY have forced the McCanns to admit that the timeline agreed amongst the friends does not add up and, in the Crimewatch recon they have 'Matt' simply saying the words "All quiet" when he gets back to the dining table, with 'Kate' acknowledging in a contented way and continuing to enjoy her night out. The McCanns do not add anything themselves at this point but what does "All quiet" mean?

It means, imo, that either Matt did not like to admit to the McCanns that he did not go in properly but gave more importance to his own children or that the McCanns wanted his check to count for their own reasons, but now SY have rumbled it and they have no choice but to go along with it.

I've always wondered if Matt was supposed to 'find her gone' so to speak but he didn't check properly so KM had to do it at 10. Gerry's 'check' straight after Matt's earlier check doesn't make sense and we only have Gerry's word that he saw Maddie 'looking so beautiful, thought how lucky he was' etc. i.m.o he was up to something at 9.05.

ann_chovey wrote:I've always wondered if Matt was supposed to 'find her gone' so to speak but he didn't check properly so KM had to do it at 10. Gerry's 'check' straight after Matt's earlier check doesn't make sense and we only have Gerry's word that he saw Maddie 'looking so beautiful, thought how lucky he was' etc. i.m.o he was up to something at 9.05.

Your theory certainly fits in and also makes sense

I definitely read that Oldfield's Lawyer said his Client had returned to POrtugal to change his statement which now Redwood concedes that Madeleine was not seen for an hour , between 9 and 10pm. The Police received the call at 10.40pm,plenty of time to put Madeleine's body in the Tennis Bag and hide it until it was safe to move it.... Gordon prostrating himself on the reception Floor and the both of them in front of the Police was for the benefit of the Cameras.

I think Russell and Matt searched for Madeleine together, do we know if David and Gerry did???

Panda wrote:
I definitely read that Oldfield's Lawyer said his Client had returned to POrtugal to change his statement which now Redwood concedes that Madeleine was not seen for an hour , between 9 and 10pm. The Police received the call at 10.40pm,plenty of time to put Madeleine's body in the Tennis Bag and hide it until it was safe to move it.... Gordon prostrating himself on the reception Floor and the both of them in front of the Police was for the benefit of the Cameras.

I think Russell and Matt searched for Madeleine together, do we know if David and Gerry did???

D.Payne's statement (rogatory)

"Yeah so you’ve started to take part in the searches and you’ve taken part with Matt and Russell.”Reply "Mm.”
1485 "You’ve done a bit of a loop of the…”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Down to the Supermarket. Just tell me…”
Reply "I mean the…”
1485 "You went back, subsequently back to your apartment and then bedtime and then…”
Reply "Yeah I mean my, my, you know a lot of the movements you know the, initially with the sweep that I did straight away round the complex I was on, you know I did that on my own err you know, going up to the room, that bit I did on my own and where I swept down to the beach and walked along you know and shouted for Madeleine and seeing other people as I went along you know that was purely, I was running and I was doing that on my own. Then when I went back to the apartment, then swept up you know at some stage looking up at the, the area above the apartment to the side, looking in the rough err some rough land which was on the way to the err Millennium err where we ate, err and there was err bumped into Dan, he was looking, you know the tennis pro, looking there you know err I say that was another part of the search. In the meantime there was also, you know, discussion with Mark Warner people and the Police immediately outside the, err, the apartment err you know so there was, I can’t think of anything else to say.”

The purpose of this thread was to point out glaring discrepancies in the 'tapas ' statements,particularly Oldfields as i think this is pivotal,and that of SY interpretation of the timeline in crimewatch.
It is entirely possible that no checks were taking place at all and especially in regards to the mccann children.
I maintain that Oldfields statement suggests gerry left the table shortly after he returned from his 9.30 check.
This puts gerry in the frame to be 'smithman'.

I am not convinced 'smithman' is gerry actually it could well be another red herring.

Gerry had already placed his alibi well and truly with tanner. Only if Maddie had died that evening would he have the need to be legging it down to the beach with a dead body,and going where exactly ?

Too risky unless he had a pre determined hiding place or maybe rendezvous with persons unknown.

And running round with someone else's kid to create the storyline i think unlikely.

All those things are possible off course but probably more likely that much of that day was spent dealing with the body,cleaning up and working out a plan of action.
Somewhere in amongst that you would have to assume there must be at least some period of panic that seems to have been quite well suppressed.

Most likely that Maddie was already dealt with and not impossible that the scene was set for one of the others to find Her missing .

i think it was all over by the time mathew did his check too mathew was suposed to find madeleine missing imo sy need to know FACT who was the last person to see madeleine outside the group all this crap about trusting each other - i trusted nobody with my kids like that they were nearly strangers fgs

I can go with that,though i guess that assumes Oldfield being an innocent party in this ?

Not wishing to go off on to much of a tangent but is it absolutely established that the shutters were down and windows shut ?

Lioned wrote:I can go with that,though i guess that assumes Oldfield being an innocent party in this ?

Not wishing to go off on to much of a tangent but is it absolutely established that the shutters were down and windows shut ?

Lioned, I posted an article on the other thread called "the one big thing". It's a piece from an Irish newspaper which refers to an interview with Mitchell on a current affairs programme, on which he claims the window was not open. So I think nothing can be established absolutely with the McCanns and friends.

Thanks mossman.

Its been so many years now i am starting to forget.Will have another read and maybe start it up again on the shutters thread.

Lioned wrote:Thanks mossman.

Its been so many years now i am starting to forget.Will have another read and maybe start it up again on the shutters thread.

It's not you, this is the first time I have seen a denial from team MCcann about the windows. Even on CW last week, Kate still spoke of the window and whooshing. That is why I found the article interesting. 

Just continuing on who was at the table at particular times here is what DW said when kate returned apparently at 'precisely' 10 pm to raise the alarm...

'Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22h00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from Kate, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the McCann couple in order to find out what was going on.

In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the McCann apartment.'

I was wondering why DW stayed behind for 5 mins ? What does the remaining members of the group mean here ? Surely not waiting for the whole lot to come back so does it mean there are still one or two away from the table at 10pm when kate rushes in ?

DW then goes on further as she made her way back to the apartment 5a having stayed behind at the restaurant for 5 mins waiting for who (was gerry still missing at 10pm)


In that apartment she found that Kate was completely in panic, in "state of shock".

Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found Kate and the twin siblings of Madeleine.

She added that she did not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in that bedroom, other than that which she said above. However, she states that Kate had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was, or was not, open.

However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.

Lioned wrote:Just continuing on who was at the table at particular times here is what DW said when kate returned apparently at 'precisely' 10 pm to raise the alarm...

'Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22h00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact of Madeleine's disappearance. Asked about the reaction of other members of the group when they heard the above from Kate, the witness says that everyone, except the witness, left the restaurant and went to the apartment of the McCann couple in order to find out what was going on.

In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the McCann apartment.'

I was wondering why DW stayed behind for 5 mins ? What does the remaining members of the group mean here  ? Surely not waiting for the whole lot to come back so does it mean there are still one or two away from the table at 10pm when kate rushes in ?

To me, that sounds like she had been waiting for those remaining members of the group to return from somewhere so she could tell then where everyone else had gone. Kate rushes in, they're not all there for some reason, so DW elects to stay and let them know what is happening.

I have to agree with others that Oldfield may have been willing to fabricate "checks" in order to avoid being charged with negligence, rather than to cover up for the McCanns. Allegedly he arrived at the bar at 8:45 pm and had no intentions of conducting any type of check at 10 pm. It was quite convenient for him to be able to say that he made two checks in order to make him appear to be a responsible parent.

One thing that is interesting to note is the Kate McCann claims it was Russell who conducted a check at 9:05 pm, just before Gerry. Apparently she had not memorized the agreed upon timeline when she gave her interview. This check could very well have been Russell as his daughter was sick. Further, the 9:25/9:35 pm check could have been Russell and Gerry rather than Russell and Matt, as the waiters only remember two men going for the check. Matt initially probably agreed to say it was him, not thinking that he would have to claim to have gone in the apartment. However, since the windo would have to be open at this time to coincide with the Tanner sighting, the check had to be internal, thus avoiding the window.

IMO Matt lied about both checks. The police are not properly investigating if they are not trying to find out the reason for his lies.