Matt Oldfields check ?

In the crimewatch deconstruction it says he got up to do his 'listening ' check at around 9.30 so kate didnt need to go.

So now go back to Oldfields rog statement and you will read that he says he did that 'listening' check at 5 to 9. or about 9.
He then goes on to wonder why gerry has to go and do another check a little after 9.

Reply "So, erm, back to the table, erm, we have, oh, back to the table, Gerry got up to go and, to go and check on his kids, I mean, and I'd come back and said, you know, I didn't hear any noise when I listened outside your room, so I thought it was a little bit odd that, you know, not kind of a wounded pride that he sort of didn't trust me, but, erm, I just thought, oh, you know, I've just checked you don't really need to check and sort of, you know, sort of go back, but, erm, he sort of got up and went back to check on, erm, on his kids. But, you know, you don't, you know, we're all sort of responsible for our own children and you wouldn't sort of say, you know, you don't need to do that, I just sort of felt, oh I've listened, you don't need to do that because I've kind of just done it, but I hadn't gone into the apartment, so, erm".



So why did gerry go back to check again immediately after Oldfields check ?

This would have given gerry the opportunity to 'deal' with Maddie.Maybe he then saw Jez and had to put Maddie down in the flowerbed temporary ?

Oldfields 'check' at 9.30 according to SY is questionable ? Maybe next check was kates,a little earlier than 10.

Kate screaming and in the confusion gerry gets Maddie and hotfoots it down to the Smiths.

How is he not seen i dont know but for gerry to be Smithman he's got to be away from the table at around the time SY say Oldfield 'check' which they say was 9.30 but that is not true according to the Rog statement.

Please can someone else check this for me  and see if it makes sense ?

Eta.Just to say that even if their is some confusion over the time,even if SY got it right at 9.30, the statement is quite clear that gerry got up immediately after Oldfield !

Stephen Carpenter said everyone from the Tapas group was seated by 8:30 pm, 1/2 hour earlier than the group claims. Jez Wilkins says that he met with Gerry between 8:30 and 9:15, so that meeting could have occurred much earlier. The Carpenters left the Tapas bar 9:15-9:30 pm. Mrs. Carpenter heard someone screaming "Madeleine" on their way back to the apartment, which would have been at least 1/2 hour before Kate allegedly raised the alarm. I believe that many of the MW staff also stated that the group was away from the table well before 10 pm. Maybe this is why it was so important to establish the "timeline," as they were trying to slide everything forward in order to provide an alibi for Gerry?

Well who do you believe, the waiters and some off the holiday makers 9.30 or 10.00. The tapas lot.


The fact they ask Webster to stay at the table so as NOT to get her involved speaks volumes ...



The fact that after they all met secretly and she changed her statement re the 'chivvy the paynes up (oldfield) says that she now knows is covering up for her daughter and son in law because I wouldn't cover for someone didn't know, would you.

Excellent point, Lioned.
So all independent witnesses are saying it was much earlier than what the Tapas lot claim.
Like kitti, says, who do you believe, the Tapas lot or independent witnesses??  

wjk wrote:Excellent point, Lioned.
So all independent witnesses are saying it was much earlier than what the Tapas lot claim.
Like kitti, says, who do you believe, the Tapas lot or independent witnesses??  

The main point is what Oldfield said about gerry going off to do another check.

We know the timelines are all over the place and have done from the beginning.Discrepancies can occur in timelines sometimes for genuine reasons people can just forget or not be sure.

Oldfield says gerry left the table and made a clear point about it being a bit odd that gerry should need to do that.

SY put this at 9.30 pm.

What we can be reasonably confident about is the Smith timing,give or take a few minutes either way maybe.

If you want 'Smithman' to be gerry then you have to prove gerry was away from the table at that time.

Oldfield says he was and so now do SY.

jinvta wrote:Stephen Carpenter said everyone from the Tapas group was seated by 8:30 pm, 1/2 hour earlier than the group claims. Jez Wilkins says that he met with Gerry between 8:30 and 9:15, so that meeting could have occurred much earlier. The Carpenters left the Tapas bar 9:15-9:30 pm. Mrs. Carpenter heard someone screaming "Madeleine" on their way back to the apartment, which would have been at least 1/2 hour before Kate allegedly raised the alarm. I believe that many of the MW staff also stated that the group was away from the table well before 10 pm. Maybe this is why it was so important to establish the "timeline," as they were trying to slide everything forward in order to provide an alibi for Gerry?

Where is Mrs Carpenters statement, I cannot find it. It is she who heard the calling, not him, he refers to it, would be interesting to know what exactly she said. From his statement : thanks to mccannpjfiles


Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day........

Lioned wrote:

wjk wrote:Excellent point, Lioned.
So all independent witnesses are saying it was much earlier than what the Tapas lot claim.
Like kitti, says, who do you believe, the Tapas lot or independent witnesses??  

The main point is what Oldfield said about gerry going off to do another check.

We know the timelines are all over the place and have done from the beginning.Discrepancies can occur in timelines sometimes for genuine reasons people can just forget or not be sure.

Oldfield says gerry left the table and made a clear point about it being a bit odd that gerry should need to do that.

SY put this at 9.30 pm.

What we can be reasonably confident about is the Smith timing,give or take a few minutes either way maybe.

If you want 'Smithman' to be gerry then you have to prove gerry was away from the table at that time.

Oldfield says he was and so now do SY.

Lioned

I think there are also statements from some of the waiters that say pretty much the same thing.

If you were an independent witness, like the Carpenters, and your statement is now at odds with what the McCanns are saying, wouldn't you be getting in touch with SY or someone and letting them know? I would, the last thing you would want is to be held up as a liar.

Keela wrote:If you were an independent witness, like the Carpenters, and your statement is now at odds with what the McCanns are saying, wouldn't you be getting in touch with SY or someone and letting them know? I would, the last thing you would want is to be held up as a liar.

Yes, you would expect that, SY already know all this - they've been through the files.

The important thing is whether they are going to do anything about it, or just steam ahead with their abduction theory.

mossman wrote:

Lioned wrote:

wjk wrote:Excellent point, Lioned.
So all independent witnesses are saying it was much earlier than what the Tapas lot claim.
Like kitti, says, who do you believe, the Tapas lot or independent witnesses??  

The main point is what Oldfield said about gerry going off to do another check.

We know the timelines are all over the place and have done from the beginning.Discrepancies can occur in timelines sometimes for genuine reasons people can just forget or not be sure.

Oldfield says gerry left the table and made a clear point about it being a bit odd that gerry should need to do that.

SY put this at 9.30 pm.

What we can be reasonably confident about is the Smith timing,give or take a few minutes either way maybe.

If you want 'Smithman' to be gerry then you have to prove gerry was away from the table at that time.

Oldfield says he was and so now do SY.

Lioned

I'll second that!  

This according to crimewatch.....

At about 9.0pm Matt gets up to go and check on the children.So Matt has left the table.Shortly after 9.0pm gerry says thats about half an hour i'm going to check (or words similiar),so when gerry gets up this time Matt is not there,he has already gone.
Gerry enters the apartment and notices that the door to the bedroom is open wider than before and assumes Matt left it that way.

That is Oldfields first 'check' which i believe he didn't enter the apartment he listened at the window (someone please correct me if that is wrong)

Look again at Matts 'rog' statement

Reply "So, erm, back to the table, erm, we have, oh, back to the table, Gerry got up to go and, to go and check on his kids, I mean, and I'd come back and said, you know, I didn't hear any noise when I listened outside your room, so I thought it was a little bit odd that, you know, not kind of a wounded pride that he sort of didn't trust me, but, erm, I just thought, oh, you know, I've just checked you don't really need to check and sort of, you know, sort of go back, but, erm, he sort of got up and went back to check on, erm, on his kids. But, you know, you don't, you know, we're all sort of responsible for our own children and you wouldn't sort of say, you know, you don't need to do that, I just sort of felt, oh I've listened, you don't need to do that because I've kind of just done it, but I hadn't gone into the apartment, so, erm".

Matt returns to the table and gerry is there and gets up to go check.Matt is clearly talking here about his second 'check'.
According to this both Matt and SY revised timeline puts gerry away from the table around 9,30pm

He was back at 5a at 10.30, Mrs Fenn says so. She says that it was then she heard Kate's cries of we have let her down and lots of commotion. She looked over her balcony saw Kate going nuts and spoke to Gerry.

Actually in kates book she said she and Fiona spoke to Mrs Fenn, didnt she ? mrs fenn says she spoke to gerry. I never noticed that before.

She seems fairly certain of the time she first heard all the commotion. Could she have missed out a full thirty minutes of commotion, if Kate's 10 pm is right ? She says she was home alone, does not mention being asleep or anything.

mossman wrote:He was back at 5a at 10.30, Mrs Fenn says so.  She says that it was then she heard Kate's cries of we have let her down and lots of commotion.  She looked over her balcony saw Kate going nuts and spoke to Gerry.  

Actually in kates book she said she and Fiona spoke to Mrs Fenn, didnt she ?  mrs fenn says she spoke to gerry. I never noticed that before.

She seems fairly certain of the time she first heard all the commotion.  Could she have missed out a full thirty minutes of commotion, if Kate's 10 pm is right ?  She says she was home alone, does not mention being asleep or anything.

Yes, she said she had been watching the 10 o'clock news, didn't she?
That's how she was sure of the time.

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:He was back at 5a at 10.30, Mrs Fenn says so.  She says that it was then she heard Kate's cries of we have let her down and lots of commotion.  She looked over her balcony saw Kate going nuts and spoke to Gerry.  

Actually in kates book she said she and Fiona spoke to Mrs Fenn, didnt she ?  mrs fenn says she spoke to gerry. I never noticed that before.

She seems fairly certain of the time she first heard all the commotion.  Could she have missed out a full thirty minutes of commotion, if Kate's 10 pm is right ?  She says she was home alone, does not mention being asleep or anything.

Yes, she said she had been watching the 10 o'clock news, didn't she?
That's how she was sure of the time.

Yes, although I thought she was just about to watch the 10.30pm but that is how she was sure of the time.

chrissie wrote:

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:He was back at 5a at 10.30, Mrs Fenn says so.  She says that it was then she heard Kate's cries of we have let her down and lots of commotion.  She looked over her balcony saw Kate going nuts and spoke to Gerry.  

Actually in kates book she said she and Fiona spoke to Mrs Fenn, didnt she ?  mrs fenn says she spoke to gerry. I never noticed that before.

She seems fairly certain of the time she first heard all the commotion.  Could she have missed out a full thirty minutes of commotion, if Kate's 10 pm is right ?  She says she was home alone, does not mention being asleep or anything.

Yes, she said she had been watching the 10 o'clock news, didn't she?
That's how she was sure of the time.

Yes, although I thought she was just about to watch the 10.30pm but that is how she was sure of the time.

You're probably right chrissie.
I thought she said the 10 o'clock news had just finished that's how she new it was half ten.

wjk wrote:

chrissie wrote:

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:He was back at 5a at 10.30, Mrs Fenn says so.  She says that it was then she heard Kate's cries of we have let her down and lots of commotion.  She looked over her balcony saw Kate going nuts and spoke to Gerry.  

Actually in kates book she said she and Fiona spoke to Mrs Fenn, didnt she ?  mrs fenn says she spoke to gerry. I never noticed that before.

She seems fairly certain of the time she first heard all the commotion.  Could she have missed out a full thirty minutes of commotion, if Kate's 10 pm is right ?  She says she was home alone, does not mention being asleep or anything.

Yes, she said she had been watching the 10 o'clock news, didn't she?
That's how she was sure of the time.

Yes, although I thought she was just about to watch the 10.30pm but that is how she was sure of the time.

You're probably right chrissie.
I thought she said the 10 o'clock news had just finished that's how she new it was half ten.

No, you're probably right. My brain gets frazzled  

chrissie wrote:

wjk wrote:

chrissie wrote:

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:He was back at 5a at 10.30, Mrs Fenn says so.  She says that it was then she heard Kate's cries of we have let her down and lots of commotion.  She looked over her balcony saw Kate going nuts and spoke to Gerry.  

Actually in kates book she said she and Fiona spoke to Mrs Fenn, didnt she ?  mrs fenn says she spoke to gerry. I never noticed that before.

She seems fairly certain of the time she first heard all the commotion.  Could she have missed out a full thirty minutes of commotion, if Kate's 10 pm is right ?  She says she was home alone, does not mention being asleep or anything.

Yes, she said she had been watching the 10 o'clock news, didn't she?
That's how she was sure of the time.

Yes, although I thought she was just about to watch the 10.30pm but that is how she was sure of the time.

You're probably right chrissie.
I thought she said the 10 o'clock news had just finished that's how she new it was half ten.

No, you're probably right.  My brain gets frazzled  

Same here  
I really need an early night, my minds been buzzing since Crimewatch  

Gerry notices the door open wider than he left it during his 9:15 pm check and then closes it back to 5 degrees. Oldfield then checks at 9:25 pm and notices the bedroom door half open. Therefore, we are now to believe that the "abductor" was in 5A before 9:15 pm. We also must believe that the "abductor" was still in the apartment after Gerry left because he still had to open the window for Kate to find at 10 pm and open the door again for Matthew to find half open at 9:25 pm.

If Smithman is abductorman, as Deadwood claims, he would either have had to hang out in the apartment for a good 45 mintues before leaving and being spotted by the Smiths at 9:55 pm or left immediately after Gerry left and then wandered the streets for more than a half an hour before being spotted by the Smiths. Neither scenario makes any sense.

Gerry and Matthew have really painted themselves in a corner with these very detailed descriptions of how far the door was open and what the implications are for when the "abductor" would have entered and left the apartment. Bother observations render the Smithman as abductorman to be extremely unlikely. Matthew needs to be reinterviewed. He clearly lied about his 9:25 pm check (wrong number of window, wrong color of curtains, etc) and there must be a reason why. Perhaps this is the direction that SY is taking the investigation?

Ask yourself why Kate was so vicious in her description of Mrs Fenn. There was absolutely no need for it, unless it was to discredit her testimony, writing her off as an interfering old bat. Which makes me tend to believe Mrs Fenn's version of events, rather than Kate's.

Well yes, I'd believe Tom Pepper (a proverbial liar) before Kate.

Woe betide anyone who doesn't treat her with the respect that she thinks she deserves.

Can I check something here? I am confused. Maybe it is important, maybe not.

Is it that the 'official' events are that Gerry went to check immediately after Matt Oldfield's check (where Matt only listened), but then also says did not actually see Madeleine in bed?

Redwood has discounted the Statements, a great opportunity missed a long time ago to get the truth. All he needed to do was call a recon , the Tapas 9 could not refuse this time ......why did he not arrange it when he read their statements and staff etc. ?

Can the police do reconstructions by computer simulation ?
It woulds seem a glaringly obvious thing to do if they have the technology and given the sophistication of video games, I'd have thought the technology might well be there.