Daily Mail - Why were E-fits kept secret?

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the beige trousers with the buttons on worn by the man as described by Smiths. thanks wjk I knew there was a photo somewhere

kitti wrote:?

 
widowan said," I recall something about the trousers having buttons on. Odd for man's pants. You would notice that - a row of buttons? Is that like cargo pants with the buttons that close the pockets on the leg?"
 
So, I'm just showing her what the pants 'may' have looked like that the abductor wore, kitti.

You're welcome, tanzi.

Good Lord.

wjk thanks.

My you can see how this would be distracting.

Even with Gerry alibi'd at the table by the staff and his friends, at 955 when Smith sighting was, the guy looks very much like him and the pants match the description.

How sure were the Smiths this was at 955 and not 925 or 1025 I wonder? There were a whole group of them

The receipt from Kellys said 9.55 that's when they left .

I am not so sure that Gerry does have an alibi for being at the table at 10 pm. Yes, he has the whole T7, but an independent witness, I am not so sure of that. I still think it is a possibility that it was Russell who left the table at 9:00 pm (as Kate claims in her witness statement) to check on his sick daughter and decided to stay in the room since he found her sick. This would make sense because Tanner allegedly never left the table. Tanner's lies about bundlemand could have been made up to cover for her own partner being gone for so long. And then it was Gerry and Oldfiled who left the table at 9:30 pm, Gerry took care of business, while Oldfield returned to the table. I still think there is a possibility that Gerry could be Smithman, the timeline and alibis are IMO too unreliable.

jinvta wrote:I am not so sure that Gerry does have an alibi for being at the table at 10 pm. Yes, he has the whole T7, but an independent witness, I am not so sure of that. I still think it is a possibility that it was Russell who left the table at 9:00 pm (as Kate claims in her witness statement) to check on his sick daughter and decided to stay in the room since he found her sick. This would make sense because Tanner allegedly never left the table. Tanner's lies about bundlemand could have been made up to cover for her own partner being gone for so long. And then it was Gerry and Oldfiled who left the table at 9:30 pm, Gerry took care of business, while Oldfield returned to the table. I still think there is a possibility that Gerry could be Smithman, the timeline and alibis are IMO too unreliable.

I agree. If you look at the independent witness statements, they say the table was empty by 9.20-9.30pm. Except for Dianne Webster.

I just saw yesterday a link to the statement of the young man waiting tables at Tapas, his witness statement. He served them because he spoke English. Discussed their drinking and how nice and friendly they were.

He knew after the fact that Gerry was the one whose child was missing because he saw him running through the playground next to the bar, shouting for her. He said this was the one who was loudest and telling jokes etc the previous nights.

This is the guy who heard kate scream with " a sound I never heard before" - this was after everyone had left the table, so not when she discovered Madeleine missing but afterwards -- and he was the one who said Kate said " the f*ing b*stards's have taken her" -

I can't remember which thread it was on but he put the time I think between 930 and ten. He offered to call the cops at that time and Gerry said do it.

He was a Portuguese born person who'd been living in UK and his cousin got him the job if I recall.

Why was gerry calling her name if they knew she been abducted.

widowan wrote:I just saw yesterday a link to the statement of the young man waiting tables at Tapas, his witness statement. He served them because he spoke English. Discussed their drinking and how nice and friendly they were.

He knew after the fact that Gerry was the one whose child was missing because he saw him running through the playground next to the bar, shouting for her. He said this was the one who was loudest and telling jokes etc the previous nights.

This is the guy who heard kate scream with " a sound I never heard before" - this was after everyone had left the table, so not when she discovered Madeleine missing but afterwards -- and he was the one who said Kate said " the f*ing b*stards's have taken her" -

I can't remember which thread it was on but he put the time I think between 930 and ten. He offered to call the cops at that time and Gerry said do it.

He was a Portuguese born person who'd been living in UK and his cousin got him the job if I recall.

This one.

Heres a bit of the rog' statement of barman Jeronimo Salcedas.

"Generally, they left the Tapas at 23h30/midnight, at times together and at other times in small groups. On the night in which they drank more than usual, they left a bit later, perhaps towards 00h30-01h00. I remember this detail because I was supposed to finish work at 00H00 and I wanted to go home. They always left on good terms and always wished the staff good night."

Interesting to read the rest as it has information on the wine consumption


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

kitti wrote:Why was gerry calling her name if they knew she been abducted.

Thinking she could call out if she heard her father? Out of panic? They were all running calling for her. Even if they thought she'd been abducted (Kate's the one who thought that, Gerry was still saying she can't bem she has to be there) they would still call for her. And she could have just wandered off ... especially if the open window was opened later to suggest someone had gotten in that way...

Lioned wrote:

widowan wrote:I just saw yesterday a link to the statement of the young man waiting tables at Tapas, his witness statement. He served them because he spoke English. Discussed their drinking and how nice and friendly they were.

He knew after the fact that Gerry was the one whose child was missing because he saw him running through the playground next to the bar, shouting for her. He said this was the one who was loudest and telling jokes etc the previous nights.

This is the guy who heard kate scream with " a sound I never heard before" - this was after everyone had left the table, so not when she discovered Madeleine missing but afterwards -- and he was the one who said Kate said " the f*ing b*stards's have taken her" -

I can't remember which thread it was on but he put the time I think between 930 and ten. He offered to call the cops at that time and Gerry said do it.

He was a Portuguese born person who'd been living in UK and his cousin got him the job if I recall.

This one.

Heres a bit of the rog' statement of barman Jeronimo Salcedas.

"Generally, they left the Tapas at 23h30/midnight, at times together and at other times in small groups. On the night in which they drank more than usual, they left a bit later, perhaps towards 00h30-01h00. I remember this detail because I was supposed to finish work at 00H00 and I wanted to go home. They always left on good terms and always wished the staff good night."

Interesting to read the rest as it has information on the wine consumption


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

thanks. So they booked for 730-8 every night to arrive, they were drinking a bottle of wine each, or less over 4 hours (one glass per hour each) - I can certainly drink that much although not sure I could do it 5 nights in a row - sounds like they were having a good time and unlikely to have been checking every half hour.

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother

I suppose if she was missing from 930 and then the scream from Kate - was madeleine on the ground on the veranda or something? Gerry would have time to get down to the area for Smith sighting by 955

however of course that means they all knew what happened and no one talked Gerry out of this, and they did it while the cops were on their way.

DCI Redwood said the third option they were looking as it that she interrupted a burglary. Now would a burglar silence her and perhaps kill her? Maybe. Maybe even accidentally, suffocation. But would he then take her with him? not likely.

if they found her - why would she not still be in the apt - why would Gerry be running around looking for her?

Daily Mail wrote:Numerous witnesses have also given statements making clear that Mr McCann was at his holiday complex at the moment the sighting occurred – which was at the very time when he and his wife started calling for help looking for Maddie.

But shortly after Mr Smith told police Mr McCann may have been the man he had seen carrying a little girl, a friend of the McCanns said: ‘Look at the facts. This man sees an individual carrying a child on the night Maddie vanished.

‘He waits 13 days to report this to the police, going back to Ireland in the meantime. At this stage he admits he has no idea who the man is. Almost four months go by before, after seeing him on TV, he feels that it could be Gerry.

‘The truth is that this is part of the victimisation of Gerry and Kate which has gone on from the very beginning by the Portuguese.’

Okay, I have a query here.

'Numerous witnesses have also given statements making clear that Mr McCann was at his holiday complex at the moment the sighting occurred'

In that case, why would the McCanns be trying to suppress the Smith sighting in the first place. It would matter not one jot if the sighting looked like Gerry, Father Christmas, or Humpty Dumpty, so long as that person had a cast iron alibi. This raises the question for me of how reliable Gerry's alibi's were (or perhaps this is why SY have been so long in bringing this information forward, due to tracking down and interviewing independent witnesses who will give Gerry an alibi). Could it be that back then this was not the case and Gerry was very afraid?

LJC wrote:

Daily Mail wrote:Numerous witnesses have also given statements making clear that Mr McCann was at his holiday complex at the moment the sighting occurred – which was at the very time when he and his wife started calling for help looking for Maddie.

But shortly after Mr Smith told police Mr McCann may have been the man he had seen carrying a little girl, a friend of the McCanns said: ‘Look at the facts. This man sees an individual carrying a child on the night Maddie vanished.

‘He waits 13 days to report this to the police, going back to Ireland  in the meantime. At this stage he admits he has no idea who the man is. Almost four months go by before, after seeing him on TV, he feels that it could be Gerry.

‘The truth is that this is part of  the victimisation of Gerry and Kate which has gone on from the very beginning by the Portuguese.’

Okay, I have a query here.  

'Numerous witnesses have also given statements making clear that Mr McCann was at his holiday complex at the moment the sighting occurred'

In that case, why would the McCanns be trying to suppress the Smith sighting in the first place.  It would matter not one jot if the sighting looked like Gerry, Father Christmas, or Humpty Dumpty, so long as that person had a cast iron alibi.  This raises the question for me of how reliable Gerry's alibi's were (or perhaps this is why SY have been so long in bringing this information forward, due to tracking down and interviewing  independent witnesses who will give Gerry an alibi).  Could it be that back then this was not the case and Gerry was very afraid?  

that can only be true if everyone, the smiths and the numerous independent witnesses, were aligned on the time that smiths saw the man carrying the child. If smiths THOUGHT it was ten because they left the bar at 955 because their bar tape said so -- but that tape was wrong - those things are known to be off by as much as an hour at any time - and witnesses saw Gerry at ten, they might not be agreeing about where he was.

But let's say that Gerry knows he is innocent and that if smiths saw someone carrying a kid in pajamas (that Kate says in her book published May 2011 was probably the same guy as the one Jane saw, ie the actual abductor as then thought from May 3rd 2007 through to Mayish 2013) it wasn't him and might have been the abductor, why would the distraction be more important to them than following this up?

The efit did not get produced until October 2013, they have had it all this time. Gerry would rather or Kate and Gerry and their lawyers would rather agree that it's more important not to stir the pot with people being "distracted" suspecting him, rather than run with credible evidence of the actual abductor that could help people remember who they saw that night, and help find Maddie or what happened to her?

Who are these ' numerous' witnesses ?

Certainly on the SY timeline gerry could have been anywhere between 9.30 and. 10.00.

well if G McC was totally innocent of anything and he had the cast iron alibi he says he has there would be no distractions. Ill asked Lioneds question too, who were the numerous witnesses.

does the source who says K and G were victimised by the Portuguese understand it was the British Police that suggested that K and G be investigated further and suggested the dogs were brought in.

I also understand that the distance from 5A to the smith sighting could be covered in minutes.

I would say that the numerous witnesses would be the T9 themselves. Most of the bar staff were not keeping tabs on who was at the table and when, and could not be sure that Gerry was at the table at any given time. He could have easily snuck off while nobody was looking, or left with O'Brien at 9:25 instead of Oldfield, who was all to happy to claim that he had conducted a check at this time since he hadn't got off his arse all night.

Here is one employee who disagrees that Gerry was at the table at 10 pm:

Arlindo Epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Peleja

Date/Time: 2007/05/08 21H10
Executive Chef
Portuguese

Concerning the issue of the process said;
. Is a functionary of the Ocean Club establishment since the 13th of January of the current year (2007), and is employed as executive chef of the kitchen. He clarifies that along with being responsible for the five (5) kitchens (one of whom is the Tapas) of the Ocean Club, his post essentially centres on the principal kitchen next to a reception, close to the restaurant MIRAGE. His work takes him occasionally to the other kitchens;
. He records that the past Thursday, 3rd of May, he left the central kitchen with the objective of going to the Tapas restaurant in order to determine that everything was functioning smoothly;
. When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10, he remembers that next to the Tapas reception, he saw a vehicle, dark blue in colour, with Portuguese license plates. Although he cannot be definite, he believes it was a Fiesta or Focus. The deponent furthers that is was not a small car, and for this reason it could very well have been a Focus and not a Fiesta. He tells that he does not remember any sticker indicating that it was a rental car. Inside the vehicle he saw no one.
. After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else.
. A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
. When he left, he noticed that the dark blue vehicle was no longer in its location (previously noted) and does not know of the existence or any connection between the presence of that vehicle and the disappearance of the child;
. Ending, states that during the days that preceded the facts, he did not notice any element/individual/fact that would have merited his attention;
. And nothing more said, having read the statement, finds it in conformity and signs it;
. The document is duly signed by me …

Tony Almeida, Inspector with this Polícia Judiciária.
Processos

jinvta wrote:I would say that the numerous witnesses would be the T9 themselves. Most of the bar staff were not keeping tabs on who was at the table and when, and could not be sure that Gerry was at the table at any given time. He could have easily snuck off while nobody was looking, or left with O'Brien at 9:25 instead of Oldfield, who was all to happy to claim that he had conducted a check at this time since he hadn't got off his arse all night.

Here is one employee who disagrees that Gerry was at the table at 10 pm:

Arlindo Epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Peleja

Date/Time: 2007/05/08 21H10
Executive Chef
Portuguese

Concerning the issue of the process said;
. Is a functionary of the Ocean Club establishment since the 13th of January of the current year (2007), and is employed as executive chef of the kitchen. He clarifies that along with being responsible for the five (5) kitchens (one of whom is the Tapas) of the Ocean Club, his post essentially centres on the principal kitchen next to a reception, close to the restaurant MIRAGE. His work takes him occasionally to the other kitchens;
. He records that the past Thursday, 3rd of May, he left the central kitchen with the objective of going to the Tapas restaurant in order to determine that everything was functioning smoothly;
. When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10, he remembers that next to the Tapas reception, he saw a vehicle, dark blue in colour, with Portuguese license plates. Although he cannot be definite, he believes it was a Fiesta or Focus. The deponent furthers that is was not a small car, and for this reason it could very well have been a Focus and not a Fiesta. He tells that he does not remember any sticker indicating that it was a rental car. Inside the vehicle he saw no one.
. After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else.
. A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
. When he left, he noticed that the dark blue vehicle was no longer in its location (previously noted) and does not know of the existence or any connection between the presence of that vehicle and the disappearance of the child;
. Ending, states that during the days that preceded the facts, he did not notice any element/individual/fact that would have merited his attention;
. And nothing more said, having read the statement, finds it in conformity and signs it;
. The document is duly signed by me …

Tony Almeida, Inspector with this Polícia Judiciária.
Processos

Thanks jinvta, I've worked in catering, as a chef, a waitress, a table clearer and a Stills room person. Waiting staff are rushed off their feet when a place is busy and I wouldn't have noticed if people had moved around at a table or any comings and goings.

A lot seems to hinge on where was everyone at 9.55. If they were all at the table. Or did the whole thing happen quite a bit earlier like 9.40. You wouldn't think this would be too difficult to discover. But after 6 years. There would be other diners, staff in the restaurant. And people maybe on their balconies that would hear a child was missing and the shouting.

MaryB wrote:A lot seems to hinge on where was everyone at 9.55.  If they were all at the table.  Or did the whole thing happen quite a bit earlier like 9.40.  You wouldn't think this would be too difficult to discover.  But after 6 years.  There would be other diners, staff in the restaurant.  And people maybe on their balconies that would hear a child was missing and the shouting.  

Yes, here is another statement that moves the timeline forward:

https://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t8443-stephen-carpenter-rogatory-statement

DCF: He was going to take a plane the next day to Switzerland, given that the children’s mother lived there, I had never seen him before that night, but he ended up joining us for a coffee, he was a MW tourist. Another couple whose names I do not remember, sat at the table opposite us. A man was sitting on the esplanade having a drink whilst waiting for a take away, I spoke to them briefly, I hadn’t realised that the Tapas bar had a take away service. At that time i didn’t know their names. At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things, I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals (inaudible), I think it was to check on the children , but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children. We did not talk about the system for checking the children or the fact that they had left them alone in the apartment, it was only later upon hearing the news that I realised that they had left the children alone in the apartment and that they were regularly checking to see if they were all right. Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry’s apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling “Madeleine, Madeleine”, this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine’s disappearance”. OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn’t see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing “Madeleine, Madeleine” and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

So, from these two statements alone, it would seem that Madeleine was first discovered missing at around 9:15/9:30 and that just a few people were looking for her, yet no alarm had been raised at this time. Then sometime between 9:40 and 10 pm, the official alarm was raised that Madeleine went missing and the Tapas table was cleared.

930 to ten seems to be one timeline, ten is the statement of the T9, and 930 is from Carpenter.

There is a lot that can happen in half an hour.

Sy seems happy enough that it was not Gerry martin Smith and family saw - for now.

Makes me wish Jane Tennyson was on the job :)

He don't say he's been to the creche.....did he take his children to the tapas?

kitti wrote:He don't say he's been to the creche.....did he take his children to the tapas?

Yes Kitti, he had his children in the Tapas Bar with him. He was carrying his 3-4 year old daughter and his wife had the younger child in a buggy.