The real robbers

katertaif Fri 9 May - 11:47

It is getting almost funny in a way. Osborne floats a new idea for us being robbed by HMRC, and MP's warn this is unacceptable. Can we take it from that it is all right for MP's to rob us in terms of their expenses, flipped second homes, 50" plasma TV's, stable heating etc. etc? Ever since the expenses scandal broke, they claim to have been thinking up ways to close the loopholes. Mostly schemes involving watchdogs, and committees all of which simply add another layer of bureaucracy and cost money. We don't need committees, watchdogs, and guidelines, all our MP's have to do is stop stealing from us, end of story.

All these schemes to restore public trust, are so much hot air and useless hot air at that. Just stop robbing us, and public trust may be restored. then what can you do, when what used to be proudly called the Mother of Parliaments have sunk so low, to third world levels in fact that unable to counter the arguments of Nigel Farage, and UKIP, they resort instead to smear campaign after smear campaign. That is how frightened they are and shows as nothing else could how completely out of touch, and lost for ideas they have become.

Except for their expense claims of course. There they are endlessly creative.

**malena stool** Fri 9 May - 17:04

Getting robbed by our, 'Honourable Members' our own elected representatives is seemingly quite ok, katertaif, but for the Chancellor to suggest that we should be turned over by the Ponzi scheme otherwise known as HMRC, reflects pretty badly on how much our representatives are representative of our views...

Especially as there is an election looming.......

They'll get nothing out of me, I've put my pension into an offshore account..
The real robbers 25346

katertaif Sat 10 May - 15:47

malena stool wrote:Getting robbed by our, 'Honourable Members' our own elected representatives is seemingly quite ok, katertaif, but for the Chancellor to suggest that we should be turned over by the Ponzi scheme otherwise known as HMRC, reflects pretty badly on how much our representatives are representative of our views...

Especially as there is an election looming.......

They'll get nothing out of me, I've put my pension into an offshore account..

They wont get anything out of me either old son, for the same reason. As for being representative of our views. the Angevin charter signed at Runnymede in 1215 seems to have been rescinded by our MP's. I find it offensive that every 5 years or when someone leaves in disgrace for having taken the public purse too literally. prospective candidates come round. Depending on the importance, and or state of the incumbent majority, the established parties trundle out what have become known as the "big hitters" In Prescott's case that being a quite literal description. They all promise the Earth if only we will entrust them with our vote.

Once the returning officer has announced the incumbent again, all that goes out of the window. They know better than we do, no matter what the subject under discussion, and will follow the party line, completely ignoring their electorate. Of course they don't have to prepare to feather their nests at this point, having been thinking and refining ideas on that ever since they decided to stand.

When someone comes along promising among other things a clean up of parliament, the establishment, unable to counter any policies because they have none of their own, only the party line, and anyway are perfectly well aware of what the public want, can find no more honourable course than to smear the interloper. That isn't politics, by any stretch. That on it's own would prevent me voting for them.

**malena stool** Sat 10 May - 19:50

Good evening katertaif,
Historic charters mean little to our present nest of vipers. The majority know next to nothing of English or British History anyway.
Even the leader of the opposition, 'Miliband the Thick' demonstrated his total ignorance of our history when forgetting Benjamin Disraeli was the first Jewish Prime Minister...

But then Disraeli was a real politician, with real views and principles, something else Miliband has no conception of.....

**Lioned** Sat 10 May - 20:50

It is going to be really difficult in the coming election deciding who to vote for !

I make no secret of being a devout socialist in the old fashioned sense and also a devoted believer in the Trade Union movement and collective bargaining.

Make no mistake that the Torys will always persecute the working classes and just feed us enough cake and trips to Benidorm to stop us taking to the streets and burning down the shops in Croydon.

They will sell off everything to their fat bloated chums as they have just done with the post office.

I really do not know which way i will vote yet but i never thought i would vote anyone but Labour.

Well Bliar and Brown have seen to that.

Also there is one thing that is certain. You should never vote for anyone who looks like a cartoon character,cos most likely that is what you will get.

So that rules out Milliband and Farage !

Clegg is a proven liar as everyone in the World knew about that fat bastard Smith.

So that leaves Cameron who i believe,at the moment,to be a decent sort of guy.

What a dilemma.
.

**malena stool** Sat 10 May - 22:04

Hi Lioned,
I also was always a devout Labour voter, sadly I must admit I contributed towards Blair's administration, but after seeing how the NHS reforms conceived and planned by the Tory witch Thatcher back in 1989 were continued for 13 years under both Blair's and Brown's New Labour I changed to voting for the Tories to oust New Labour and its take on the practices and policies their Labour Party were pursuing and will continue to do so.

None of the present batch of smooth talking deviants in any party are trustworthy enough to be in post

Cameron has shown his preference for promoting the 'old boy' system by refusing to dismiss ministers he has selected, even when they continue to display blatantly corrupt practices following exposures of the biggest political scandal for centuries... the expenses fiasco. (I doubt even professional criminals would continue to thieve and steal with the eyes of the world watching their every move).

Miliband has both personality and maturity issues.... and Clegg is as you say, a liar.

Farage is perhaps not the ideal leader of UKIP, but if he can lead them to getting some seats in parliament, it could as others on here have suggested, force the two main parties, (the Libdems don't count as a main party imho) to clean up their act.

**Lioned** Sat 10 May - 22:26

Hi malena,i agree a vote for Farage may prompt a wake up call so i havnt ruled that out

A move out of the EU would get my vote for sure but thats not the end of it.The one trick pony would then have to earn his corn on a more intellectual level.

**malena stool** Sat 10 May - 23:00

I to can see difficulties in leaving the EU, because we don't have anything like the manufacturing base we had when we cut our ties with the world markets..

Our once vast industrial base is now owned by by private, foreign entrepreneurs, the machinery stripped and exported abroad or have been absorbed by large foreign consortiums. Our skilled, (never highly paid) workforce has been systematically decimated, forced into taking menial work or migrated to the US or Aussie and replaced by cheaper immigrant labour.

katertaif Sun 11 May - 9:19

Lioned wrote:Hi malena,i agree a vote for Farage may prompt a wake up call so i havnt ruled that out

A move out of the EU would get my vote for sure but thats not the end of it.The one trick pony would then have to earn his corn on a more intellectual level.

Good morning lioned

That would be my main reason for voting UKIP. I believe that at least some of our MP's have the interests of the country at heart. Sadly they are outgunned by the chancers and have very little say. What motivates the majority now is fear. Fear of losing another opportunity of parking their bottoms on the green leather benches, commanding respect far out of anything they could get in their own field, remember most of them have failed at their professions (mainly law,) and go into politics as an easy alternative. At the end of a thoroughly mediocre career, there is always the possibility of exchanging the green leather for red leather. Where else can you go for 40 peaceful winks, and collect £300/day for it?

At the moment though, they are running scared. Terrified that UKIP may take their own seat away from them. That is IMHO why the constant smears and backbiting is going on. They cannot counter any arguments UKIP put up, because they have none of their own only the party line.

If UKIP can help break the disgraceful state that the Mother of all parliaments has sunk to, I'm in favour. If there is no UKIP standing, I would vote BNP for the same reason. to frighten the existing establishment into once again representing us and not regarding us as a herd of cows to be milked at will. We voted them in as our representatives, and that is what they should be doing, representing us.

You and malena stool were both dyed in the wool socialists, and are now in effect disenfranchised in your own country. I on the other hand was a dyed in the wool conservative, and now for the reasons you state am effectively disenfranchised in my own country. That is how desperate the situation is now in our houses of representatives. they must be able to see it for themselves, but unless weget a few UKIP MP's and possibly a couple of BNP, they will continue to treat us with contempt.

katertaif Sun 11 May - 9:37

malena stool wrote:I to can see difficulties in leaving the EU, because we don't have anything like the manufacturing base we had when we cut our ties with the world markets..

Our once vast industrial base is now owned by by private, foreign entrepreneurs, the machinery stripped and exported abroad or have been absorbed by large foreign consortiums. Our skilled, (never highly paid) workforce has been systematically decimated, forced into taking menial work or migrated to the US or Aussie and replaced by cheaper immigrant labour.

Succintly, and accurately put old son. Farage, would be hard pressed to answer that side of it. Hopefully, we'll never get that far. Europe needs to redefine it's aims and goals and we need to find some way of addressing the countries lining up to join in order to line their pockets at our expense. There is a great deal wrong at this time in the EU but you are absolutely right.

As I say hopefully UKIP will never be in position to do anything so precipitate. A few UKIP MP's would, I hope and believe serve to put the H. of C. back on track ie. representing us, not as against what many are doing now, and representing themselves.

**malena stool** Thu 15 May - 15:48

katertaif wrote:
malena stool wrote:I to can see difficulties in leaving the EU, because we don't have anything like the manufacturing base we had when we cut our ties with the world markets..

Our once vast industrial base is now owned by by private, foreign entrepreneurs, the machinery stripped and exported abroad or have been absorbed by large foreign consortiums. Our skilled, (never highly paid) workforce has been systematically decimated, forced into taking menial work or migrated to the US or Aussie and replaced by cheaper immigrant labour.

Succintly, and accurately put old son. Farage, would be hard pressed to answer that side of it. Hopefully, we'll never get that far. Europe needs to redefine it's aims and goals and we need to find some way of addressing the countries lining up to join in order to line their pockets at our expense. There is a great deal wrong at this time in the EU but you are absolutely right.

As I say hopefully UKIP will never be in position to do anything so precipitate. A few UKIP MP's would, I hope and believe serve to put the H. of C. back on track ie. representing us, not as against what many are doing now, and representing themselves.

Good afternoon katertaif,
I've just completed my postal vote for next week as I'm away for the week on my annual escape from reality by the side of a lake.... fishing.

The Tory mandate available on the net has this little Gem attached....

Quote
LET BRITAIN DECIDE

62% of people believe we need a referendum on Europe, but some people and some parties don't believe we should have a say.
Enter your details below to back David Cameron's commitment to a referendum on Europe by the end of 2017.
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Unquote.

I thought the sentence I've highlighted, considering the ongoing sale of UK Ltd by both main parties, was hardly likely to convince anyone except perhaps the party faithful or their groupies.....

If UKIP do well, perhaps there will be a leakage of experienced MPs dissatisfied with the performance of their leadership from the main parties to swell the ranks of UKIP in the General Election, as happened when the LibDems broke away.

I don't think it will going unnoticed that the economy has suddenly broke into an upward gallop according to Osborne, but the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney is a little less forthcoming with the childish enthusiasm shown by the Chancellor and his sycophant, Danny Alexander.

katertaif Fri 16 May - 10:00

Good morning Malena old son

You probably will not be reading this until your return from your well deserved leave. I still intend to vote UKIP even though I agree with a great deal of what you say, we can be strangled quite literally having sold/given away our industrial base., With what is left, mostly foreign owned caused by a compounding of bad decisions, Union activities, and plain old fashioned greed.

I believe there is a groundswell in the H. of C. where some MP's are beginning to understand that we have been taken to the cleaners just once too often, and that they are our representatives, and not our masters which seems to be still the prevalent attitude. That must change. It must change if this country is to survive with even a semblance of what it once was.

The only thing that will increase that groundswell, and make other MP's realise the enormity of what they have done in their arrogance and ignorance is fear. Fear of losing their seats. Comfortable, and whatever they claim, relatively well paid, with power and influence far beyond the abilities of most of them. Not to mention the possibilities for making extra money.

It would be a disaster if UKIP were to gain enough seats to form a government at the next elections, because they simply don't have the experience in government. I think there is very little danger of that however with the safe seat system in this country. I believe a labour or Conservative government will be elected; hopefully without the Liberals. They have proved why they were in the political wilderness for a century.

I hope that UKIP get at least a double handful of seats, I don't think more is realistic. That would be enough to show the establishment that we can no longer be taken for granted, as voting fodder. I also believe this is UKIP's last chance, as the demographic make up is changing rapidly, and this inevitably means fewer and fewer voting for them. After that, the slide is inevitable, and irreversible, at least peacefully.

katertaif Fri 16 May - 12:51

malena stool wrote:Good evening katertaif,
Historic charters mean little to our present nest of vipers. The majority know next to nothing of English or British History anyway.
Even the leader of the opposition, 'Miliband the Thick' demonstrated his total ignorance of our history when forgetting Benjamin Disraeli was the first Jewish Prime Minister...

But then Disraeli was a real politician, with real views and principles, something else Miliband has no conception of.....

Milliband the thick about covers it. The same could be said of the majority of the "nest of vipers" In particular, I find Cameron's actions and speeches to be totally incomprehensible. he appears to not be able to wait to give this country away. The indigenous; being us do not seem to matter in his world.

Of course he has a point in that he only needs to hang in there for a very few short years, and our votes will cease to matter; being merely a sideline to the main event. If that is indeed his idea, and certainly there is a lot of circumstantial evidence supporting it, then it is the very worst kind of betrayal.

As you say D'Israeli was a man of principle as were most MP's of that era. I would say up to the end of WW2 almost all our MP's were. Then they seem to have gone steadily downhill until we are very close to not having a country to call our own.

**malena stool** Fri 16 May - 19:58

katertaif wrote:
malena stool wrote:Good evening katertaif,
Historic charters mean little to our present nest of vipers. The majority know next to nothing of English or British History anyway.
Even the leader of the opposition, 'Miliband the Thick' demonstrated his total ignorance of our history when forgetting Benjamin Disraeli was the first Jewish Prime Minister...

But then Disraeli was a real politician, with real views and principles, something else Miliband has no conception of.....

Milliband the thick about covers it. The same could be said of the majority of the "nest of vipers" In particular, I find Cameron's actions and speeches to be totally incomprehensible. he appears to not be able to wait to give this country away. The indigenous; being us do not seem to matter in his world.

Of course he has a point in that he only needs to hang in there for a very few short years, and our votes will cease to matter; being merely a sideline to the main event. If that is indeed his idea, and certainly there is a lot of circumstantial evidence supporting it, then it is the very worst kind of betrayal.

As you say D'Israeli was a man of principle as were most MP's of that era. I would say up to the end of WW2 almost all our MP's were. Then they seem to have gone steadily downhill until we are very close to not having a country to call our own.

Hi katertaif,
Cameron, came across as a breath of fresh air after the corrupt administration of Blair and Brown's farcical attempt to prove himself a normal functioning person, but he was in a position way above his capabilities, showing himself only as the challenged incompetent bully he is. Sadly Cameron's initial promise was a flop. perhaps in part by having to take on board many of the loony ideologies of Clegg. The both of them together have shown their incompetence and failings as potential leaders.

I might be a bit old fashioned, but I'm a believer in leaders having Leadership Qualities, whatever their particular trade/profession. They must also earn the respect of those they lead and as Prime Minister they should have the welfare of the vulnerable of our society in mind as well as that of the nation.

My own view is the last peace time PM to have any real consideration for the electorate was Jim Callaghan. The five since Callaghan have been purely fiscal in their policies, all have eroded the industrial power of the Nation by allowing and encouraging the sell offs of Public Utilities that were never theirs to sell. And standing idly by while mergers and buy outs of private companies resulted in hundreds of thousands of job losses, repossessions and family break ups! Cameron is continuing with this mantra, he allows multi-million bonus payments to his banking friends who run their banks at a loss. The elderly, the infirm and the out of work 'plebs' have to go before boards and panels to get pittance subsistance payments that our leaders call benefits. They are not benefits or handouts, people have worked for, paid into and earned them. Which is more that can be said of the tax cheats and expense account frauds who importune themselves in the toilets of the House of Parliament.

But many are not even British, they sit in the House because of the money they have donated to the party which has taken them in. Where else in the world do aliens take preference over indigenous and better qualified representatives?

Sorry, rant over.
ms.

katertaif Fri 16 May - 21:12

Hi Malena stool

Quite correct in your analysis. cameron did appear to be a viable alternative to the blair/brown disaster (small case deliberate) Now he wants to blame his failures on his partners in crime, while they continue to climb on any bandwagon going.

The truth is, he milliband and especially clegg have absolutely no idea what to do about the mess they themselves have created. It will take some draconian measures to sort out and there isn't much time left to do it in.

Quite frankly, and I hate to sound like a Jobs comforter I wonder if Farage can make an impact in time.

**malena stool** Sun 25 May - 19:06

katertaif wrote:Hi Malena stool

Quite correct in your analysis. cameron did appear to be a viable alternative to the blair/brown disaster (small case deliberate) Now he wants to blame his failures on his partners in crime, while they continue to climb on any bandwagon going.

The truth is, he milliband and especially clegg have absolutely no idea what to do about the mess they themselves have created. It will take some draconian measures to sort out and there isn't much time left to do it in.

Quite frankly, and I hate to sound like a Jobs comforter I wonder if Farage can make an impact in time.

Hi katertaif,
I doubt if any experienced political party or leader could reverse the present disaster we are about 17 years and 3 parliaments into... Between them New Labour and latterly the Coalition have sold off or stolen the nation's assets to hide the horrendous mismanagement that's taken place since Blair's New Labour took the 1997 General Election.

katertaif Sun 25 May - 20:24

Good evening old son

It sounds to me as if we two were surrounded by the prophets of doom they would be trying to cheer us up, and telling us things aren't so bad, but unfortunately you're right and they are.

Yes the countries assets have been steadily sold off as you say, mostly to foreign investors who could pull the plug at any time. On top of political mismanagement, the unions must shoulder some of the blame for decimating other industries, shipping being probably the best example. Although the politicos would probably have sold that off as well given the chance.

UKIP did well in the council elections, In the European ones it will be interesting to see if this surge from the right translates into seats. I hope UKIP's council performance does translate next year into the 20 seats they are targeting. You know my reasoning on that, and I have the greatest respect for your analysis re:- getting out altogether. I think it comes down to renegotiating something a lot closer to the erstwhile Common Market rather than the inexorable march towards the United States of Europe.

having said that, and back to the prophets of doom I feel that demographics will overtake us before then; not only here but in Europe generally. What the consequences of that might be, I shudder to think, but it may mean the EU being the least of our worries, assuming there still is one.

**malena stool** Sun 25 May - 21:48

Good evening katertaif,
I've just tweaked a small smile picturing demons of the deep and wailing banshees handing out group hugs and cups of tea jollying us along saying how much worse it could be... The real robbers 25346

Sadly you are correct the working man has always been his own worst enemy, often times encouraging their unions to push for impossibly (to the point of stupidity) high working conditions and rates of pay, or striking over who marks and drills fixing holes on construction sites.

It can only be good to see a new political party springing up out of virtually nowhere and light a fire under the arrogant, complacent, overconfident main parties. As we have both said it may well get them into reality mode and working for their living again.

You are right katertaif, there are many events occurring in Eastern Europe which may reduce the EU to the least of our problems.

**Lioned** Sun 25 May - 22:01

The Unions have not Decimated any industries.(Decimated means devided by ten but thats me just being stupid i suppose !)

They messed up in the press and they wern't so clever in the Ship building industries towards the end of that 'Thatcher' wipe out.And in the London docks you could go back further if you want.

If it wasn't for the Unions we would still be sending 15 year old kids to their deaths,health and safety would be non existent and Women would be chained to the kitchen sink.

Many people would be dead if it wasnt for the Unions.

So get things into perspective please.

That said i agree about Europe which has always been a calamity.

**malena stool** Sun 25 May - 22:30

Lioned wrote:The Unions have not Decimated any industries.(Decimated means devided by ten but thats me just being stupid i suppose !)

They messed up in the press and they wern't so clever in the Ship building industries towards the end of that 'Thatcher' wipe out.And in the London docks you could go back further if you want.

If it wasn't for the Unions we would still be sending 15 year old kids to their deaths,health and safety would be non existent and Women would be chained to the kitchen sink.

Many people would be dead if it wasnt for the Unions.

So get things into perspective please.

What you are saying is right Lioned, but the unions were also wrongly used as political tools by both the government/employers and the workforce. Thatcher and Scargill for example used the miners union for their own ends.

**Lioned** Sun 25 May - 23:09

If it wasn't for the Unions many people would be dead and working class people would be living in poverty and women would have little or no rights in the work place.That is a fact and i doubt anyone can put forward a cohesive argument to the contrary,

The Torys and Aristocracy import cheap labour from the Eastern European countries to do there menial work and slag off British kids for not wanting to work for a pitance.

That is why we have the EU so that Capitalists can make more profit from cheap labour.And then people winge and whine about immigrants and miss the point completely.

The Capitalists introduced the facility to bring in Immigrants so they can run their business's on the cheap (bit like the slave trade really).

Now the working class,mostly,slag of the immigrants ! Thats just what the Torys want.

I have seen Ukranian builders sleeping on a building site in London (free of charge and tax free/on the lump))working for £3 per hour because the builder wont employ British workers at £10 per hour (British workers who have to go home and pay tax and mortgage or rent) so that he can make more profit.I have seen Rumanian 'grape pickers' living in a 'free house' on a farm in Kent,sleeping on the floor,six to a room at a quarter of what the farmer would have to pay British workers.

I have seen it so many times as to not be just an anectodal whim.

Only the Unions throughout the 60's and 70's stopped this happening until the Torys and Thatcher tried to take workers rights back to Victorian times.

katertaif Mon 26 May - 9:49

Lioned wrote:The Unions have not Decimated any industries.(Decimated means devided by ten but thats me just being stupid i suppose !)

They messed up in the press and they wern't so clever in the Ship building industries towards the end of that 'Thatcher' wipe out.And in the London docks you could go back further if you want.

If it wasn't for the Unions we would still be sending 15 year old kids to their deaths,health and safety would be non existent and Women would be chained to the kitchen sink.

Many people would be dead if it wasnt for the Unions.

So get things into perspective please.

That said i agree about Europe which has always been a calamity.

Good morning lioned

No one has said you were stupid my friend, but the wider sense of the word "decimate" is to destroy heavily or suffer great loss. The original meaning as you say from "deci" means a tenth. I stand by my usage of the word.

There are two parts to the cost of a ship. the actual building cost, and the demurrage. That being the loss for every day the ship is not carrying cargo. So in the days we are talking about, a tramp steamer may have cost say £3,000,000. The demurrage could easily be as high as £150,000 per diem. So if it is delayed for any reason for only 3 weeks, it's cost has doubled. That is only in money terms, and does not take into account trust, goodwill, and future business.

It's beyond denying that poor management skills were part of the problem, but equally poor union management in the form of go-slows, work-to rules, overtime bans, and plain strikes all contributed to losing orders to foreign shipyards. Yes, the British workman built the best ships in the world, but that meant nothing to an owner who was waiting for his ship. Orders we will never get back, and the loss of steel demand of course had a knock on effect with British Steel.

Malena Stool is right in that Both Scargill and Maggie were pursuing a political agenda. She to severely curb the unions, and he to bring down the government. You are completely correct when you say unions were necessary. of course they were, no one could deny that, but equally some unions at least became laws unto themselves, and have cost the country and their members money, I was a member of a union for years, and even a shop steward for a time, and I have seen some of the "mistakes" which have cost members, When I was a young electrician on contract within ICI in Redcar, we had a shop steward barely two years older than me. I eventually had to leave because while I had only taken the job for the money to get married, we were hardly ever at work due to him continually finding fault with management. Of course the men were also at fault for allowing themselves to be so used.

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