Iraq.................

What a mess Bush and Bliar left behind a country likely to implode and be every bit as deadly as it ever was with warring factions.
Unsavoury though it is to watch you cannot interfere between those intent on destroying each other.

What a waste of money and lives that war was and the same goes for Afghanistan.Achieves absolutely nothing as far as any kind of lasting peace is concerned.

The politicians know that very well but have other motives.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10888958/Al-Qaeda-seizes-Iraqs-third-largest-city-as-terrified-residents-flee.html

More on the battle for Mosul...


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27789770

THEY HAVE TAKEN TIKRIT,AT THIS RATE THEY WILL BE IN BAGHDAD BY SUNDAY.

More refugees fleeing, fears that the Sunnis will reach Baghdad and Iraq will be yet another Middle East Country in turmoil. I wonder if the USA and Britain have a conscience about the damage they have done.......I think not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27800319

Badboy wrote:THEY HAVE TAKEN TIKRIT,AT THIS RATE THEY WILL BE IN BAGHDAD BY SUNDAY.

Good morning Badboy.

I don't think you would find many who would argue against you there. What seems to be inexplicable,, on the face of it, Iraqi government forces vastly outnumber this latest terror group and have a lot of American weaponry, so what is happening?

An American who was a spokesman during the two gulf wars with Iraq, said last night that it argues collusion from within. certainly having taken Mosul and Tikrit, they will have acquired a lot of additional arms.

What is even more worrying is apparently they are too extreme even for al Queda to swallow. Murdering thousands in the twin towers atrocity among other things is in all conscience bad enough but if those same people who could do that think these ISIS or ISIL terrorists are too extreme then God help us.

They are speaking openly about establishing a Caliphate in the grounds they control, and don't respect any country borders. Ban Kee Moon has made a speech but I think any response from the UN will have to be a lot more robust. especially given that these people are happy to die, since it guarantees Paradise for them. (That is their belief) I have grave doubts about any American response.

Good Evening panda

The situation in Iraq is indeed serious. It doesn't take much imagination to see a scenario which goes well beyond the Middle East. This latest grouping of terrorists recognise no borders. They are in the process of establishing a global caliphate.

The basic difference between Shi'ite and Sunni is which of two brothers assumed the top job. That they are still killing each other over it some 1400 years later is to say the least idiotic, but real people are being killed, even as we speak. They would see it differently

There were two gulf wars, and I don't know how many dead and maimed on all sides, to say nothing of the money that was lavished and it hasn't done a particle of good. all the signs are that Afghanistan is already going the same way. We don't seem able to learn any more than those fighting over what amounts to nothing.

Islam and democracy do not mix, Their Deity is not forgiving merciful, and loving. Theirs is vengeful and unforgiving. for instance Muslims believe that at the end all non-Muslims will be cast into the fire for eternity. So if that is the case, why on Earth did he create non-Muslims to start with?

What I am saying is that Muslims need, and absolutely require a strong leader, and an undemocratic one. Yes, by any measure of ours Saddam Hussein was a monster, who used nerve gas deliberately on his own people. People were routinely tortured and killed. How many have died since he was overthrown?

I don't know the answer panda I wish I did. Saddam had no atomic weapons but he would have got them eventually. So yes, it is probable that we would have had to take him out anyway sooner or later. We certainly won the war, but lost the peace.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10899323/Iraq-crisis-SAS-may-be-sent-in-to-help-army.html

Morning katerfait, no way should Britain send troops to Iraq!!! We have lost too many Soldiers getting involved in the tribal wars of Middle East Countries. What have we got a United Nations for???? It is a tragedy for the innocent but for all the years spent in afghanistan, nothing was acheived.

Good morning panda

I could not agree more that sending troops, (at least in the numbers we could muster) would be completely and utterly pointless. We have already lost too many lives, and achieved nothing at all. As I say, many more have died in sectarian attacks, since we "pacified" the place, than Saddam ever killed.

The US could of course send enough troops, and I have no doubt they would be given the bases, in Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, but again to what purpose? In addition to which there has always been a strong Isolationist feeling among our colonial cousins, and like us they have watched their young men and women killed and maimed for nothing.

No doubt the idea was good. Get rid of Saddam, put in a democratically chosen government, and everybody would be happy. It hasn't worked out that way. As I say, I wish I knew the answer to it. One thing is it will have to be US led. having said that, I have the deepest suspicions about Obama, as more and more people do with every passing day.

One question I would like answered is where all these weapons arming the Tribes are coming from ??? If the CIA and other intelligence agencies got together and pooled their knowledge steps could be taken to stop the proliferation of weapons into the middle East. Cut off the supply and these
conflicts would cease.

Tragically it is the innocent who suffer, , more Refugee Camps where children growing up will never have a home and Parents live day to day on what the Agencies provide.

Tehran and Washington form fragile alliance to aid Nouri al-Maliki as jihadist group threatens to take Baghdad

Iran has sent 2,000 advance troops to Iraq in the past 48 hours to help tackle a jihadist insurgency, a senior Iraqi official has told the Guardian.

The confirmation comes as the Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani, said Iran was ready to support Iraq from the mortal threat fast spreading through the country, while the prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, called on ordinary Iraqis to take up arms in their country's defence.


Iran now probably holds the key to any prospect of restoring some kind of order.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27847498

According to the video,it is the Iraq Officers who are fleeing . Some leadership qualities ehh?

Panda wrote:One question I would like answered is where all these weapons arming the Tribes are coming from ??? If the CIA and other intelligence agencies  got together and pooled their knowledge steps could be taken to stop the proliferation of weapons into the middle East. Cut off the supply and these
conflicts would cease.

Tragically it is the innocent who suffer, , more Refugee Camps where children growing up will never have a home and Parents live day to day on what the Agencies provide.

Not so very long ago the Russians, and the Americans aided in part by the Chinese, and even ourselves armed every insurgent that was fighting in favour of their own interests.

Kalasnnikov assault rifles, were made by the millions, and the Chinese made a copy of it as well. These were distributed throughout Africa to the point where you can now buy one, for the literal equivalent of $5.

The Russians were fighting in Afghanistan before us and it suited the US to arm the so called Mujahideen. including the very sophisticated ground to air missile called the stinger. The only thing that can bring down the heavily armoured Russian gunship. Known as a Hind. Those weapons haven't gone away, they are still in use, and probably by the same people. When we, in our turn went into Afghanistan, the Russians supplied weaponry to these freedom fighters.

Massive quantities of arms and ammunition have been produced, with one basic aim and that is to destabilise. During the then Rhodesian bush war, or chimurenga as Mugabe would call it, the Chinese were the main suppliers of guns ammunition, land mines, anything that could be carried. They also supplied weaponry to Angola, when the S. Africans went in.

That's where they all come from panda, and while we aren't in the same league as the US/Russia/China, we aren't totally blameless. When I lived in S. Africa you could get an Israeli Uzi machine pistol if you knew where to look. Totally illegal of course for a private citizen but hey. I knew for certain two people who had one.

What chance is there then of an end to the bloodshed and destruction of the Middle East, the Refugee youngsters will be the next generation of extremists and so it goes on . At the same time,the West will continue to offer aid , probably take in more Refugees, while the Oil rich Countries in the Middle East do nothing.

I doubt if there will never be an end to the fighting in the Middle East, Panda. As individual tribes they have been at each others throats since time immemorial. While the poor unskilled members of their populations are held back from receiving an education and any say in the structure and running of their country they will follow the instructions of their rich and powerful religious and political leaders like sheep.

Any intervention from outsiders usually unites the individual tribes/clans to fight the invaders who will go back to fighting each other when the outsiders have been beaten.

It's a waste of our soldier's lives to become involved.

Yes Malena I agree , no more involvement please, It will never be controlled. In Afghanistan the Russians were in first, they withdrew because they knew that it was hopeless. If the Russians, who are not ones to hold back on their means to an end, could not control Afghanistan. What chance do we have? Same in Iraq. Leave it alone is what I say. I hope the USA does too. We will all suffer for it here, if they don't.

Hi fuzeta. It will be political suicide for any PM or President to put troops on the ground in any Middle Eastern conflict.. I saw the news earlier interviewing American veterans from the conflicts in both Iraq and Afghanistan asking whether they thought Obama should send in troops again.. All those interviewed said it was a bad idea. They are as war weary as are we, especially as we are struggling to come out of the recession without any British owned industry exporting potential and are reliant on the world and his dog for food and fuel. Not to forget we are the only EU country who sent combat troops into the war zone, where is this 'Union of Nations' with common interests that we hear so much about and pay so much into?

Union of Nations , who are they?  Never hear about them these days, thought they had retired

fuzeta wrote:Union of Nations , who are they?  Never hear about them these days, thought they had retired

Sorry, fuzeta. The EU...

malena stool wrote:

fuzeta wrote:Union of Nations , who are they?  Never hear about them these days, thought they had retired

Sorry, fuzeta. The EU...

Yes Malena, sorry I was being facetious . Well it always seems to be down to us when the s*** hits the fan.

Panda wrote:What chance is there then of an end to the bloodshed and destruction of the Middle East, the Refugee youngsters will be the next generation of extremists and so it goes on . At the same time,the West will continue to offer aid , probably take in more Refugees, while the Oil rich Countries in the Middle East do nothing.

Good evening all

I think malena stool is (as usual) completely correct. The chances of a permanent end to the bloodshed are very slim. Fighting is all they know and understand. Infidels for preference, tearing lumps out of each other in lieu.

The House of Saud has come closest. They took the most warlike of the tribes, and formed them into a National Guard, with the best of everything given them (including alcohol if they want it) Their own hospitals, schools, even entire towns purpose built for them.

Of course it is their interest now to preserve the status quo, and in doing so preserve the House of Saud. Yet still there are rumbles of discontent.

As I say I don't know the answer or even if there is one.

IT APPEARS ISIS HAVE MOVED LOTS OF MATERIAL TO SYRIA