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Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  fedrules on Thu 20 May - 11:10

I think this whole story has snowballed and , as in the McCann case, turned out to be quite different and more complex than at first appeared. The problem with instant news is that articles are put out without too much verification. The papers now have to be careful not to prejudice any future trial and, although I find it odd, if Mr Smith is innocent, that he chose to flee to Spain, he does have the right to a fair trial and to be assumed innocent until proven otherwise.
It's so tragic and wrong that the two innocents in this situation have had their lives cut short.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  fedrules on Thu 20 May - 11:28

This mother, who ran a nursery in Barcelona for 3-6 year olds and was head of a child protection department in Cumbria, claimed she couldn't cope with being left with two children to look after!!WTF.
I imagine that, if Smith is a paedophile, people will be asking questions of Cumbria Council!!!

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Sterling10 on Thu 20 May - 11:45

Yes, professions (past and present) throw up a lot of red flags.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  fedrules on Thu 20 May - 11:49

Lianne Smith allegedly had this to say to the 'publicist':
she said: "Never once did I question Martin as to whether it was true or not. If I had only one small doubt, I would have ended our relationship'

Sounds like she was preparing her defence if accused of aiding and abetting this man..telling us she knew nothing about it. I find it pretty alarming that this pair were running a nursery together.
Is it normal not to ask your husband about such accusations??!

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Dimsie on Thu 20 May - 13:42

Sterling10 wrote:Dimsie, I would imagine a person would be charged with something like aiding and abetting or as an accessory? I'm sure there's some technical name for it. She was obviously well aware of why they left Britain in the first place. What I find somewhat concerning is the fact that while on the run they've chosen to work with children and opened a school/group teaching English.

What puzzles me is that if these people are as 'normal' as the papers are now inferring, and their claims that the accusations are all false then why is he 'Britain's most wanted man'?? I think these are very serious charges he's having to answer to... all 13 of them but today's reports seem to be dampening them down a bit. Is it because their occupations and lifestyle are coming to light. Makes no bloody difference imo.

Mrs Smith, a former head of a Cumbria County Council department set up to protect children, ran a nursery in the Spanish city for youngsters aged three to six.
Sterling, yes, good point about the working with children in Spain. I wonder if this woman had to give any references or other proof of her background before she was allowed to set up her teaching English group? Or can anyone just say they're going to teach English to children and that's it?

Another thing: if this woman's earlier job was involved in child protection, wouldn't she be very aware that those who abuse children are often the last people you'd suspect of such a thing, that they're not all dirty old men in raincoats but are often seemingly respectable members of the public with good jobs, men whose wives or other family members never suspect a thing? Wouldn't she have questioned her husband and insisted on his facing his accuser(s) in court, so that he could prove his innocence, not run away to another country to avoid having to answer the charges at all?

This is a very odd case, no doubt about that, and I'm sure there's a lot yet to be told. But the very word 'publicist' raises the reddest of red flags - since when did it become the norm to contact a publicist in cases involving the well-being of children (assuming it to be true that she actually did contact a publicist, of course)? What did she want the publicist to do?

A dreadful case, with a horrific outcome. But it'll be interesting to see how the media, especially the press, treat this case, especially given this couple's background.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Guest on Thu 20 May - 14:50

Dimsie wrote:
fedrules wrote:According to the Telegraph website Martin Smith has been accused by a young woman of abuse over a ten-year period when she was a child. Smith apparently grew up in a strict Roman Catholic household..not sure what to make of that..

The Mail online is saying that Mrs Lianne Smith was in touch with a 'publicist' in the days before the children's deaths saying she didn't know how she'd cope after her husband's extradiction. Lianne Smith was convinced of her husband's innocence.
A publicist? What on earth for? I find this extraordinary if it's really true. I'm assuming it wasn't Clarence anyway, as presumably he's too busy with publicity for the McCanns and the Tories.

What is the legal position if someone knows the whereabouts of someone else who's wanted by the police? Are you obliged by law to inform the police of what you know? Or can you just stay quiet and keep your knowledge to yourself?

Im no legal Eagal but have worked for a time in this field,so i stand to be corrected

Its my understanding that if she was AWARE of the warrant out for his arrest,and knew his whereabouts,but said nothing,then she could in theory be guilty of assisting an offender,or harbouring a fugative,possibly even perverting the course of justice if she aided his exit from the country,however,he would have to be convicted FIRST for those charges to stick against his wife.

There is also a litlle known piece of legistlation that requires every citizen to assist the police,though this is more in keeping with actually physically helping a police officer detain a suspect.

Hope that helps,like i said i could be wrong but thats as i understand it.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  jeanie on Thu 20 May - 15:06

this is a very hard thing to say but, i have wondered if this woman killed her children so that they wouldn't be able to talk to the police...

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Badboy on Thu 20 May - 15:15

that kind of thought did cross my mind,or if she couldn't bare the thought of them suffering further abuse.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  wjk on Thu 20 May - 15:31

Latest on Sky saying the mother tried to take her own life, you can see bandages on her wrist.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Spain-Hotel-Deaths-Mother-Of-Two-Children-Found-Dead-Faces-Questioning-By-Police/Article/201005315635242?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15635242_Spain_Hotel_Deaths%3A_Mother_Of_Two_Children_Found_Dead_Faces_Questioning_By_Police

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Dimsie on Thu 20 May - 16:05

Twobitz wrote:Im no legal Eagal but have worked for a time in this field,so i stand to be corrected

Its my understanding that if she was AWARE of the warrant out for his arrest,and knew his whereabouts,but said nothing,then she could in theory be guilty of assisting an offender,or harbouring a fugative,possibly even perverting the course of justice if she aided his exit from the country,however,he would have to be convicted FIRST for those charges to stick against his wife.

There is also a litlle known piece of legistlation that requires every citizen to assist the police,though this is more in keeping with actually physically helping a police officer detain a suspect.

Hope that helps,like i said i could be wrong but thats as i understand it.
Thank, Twobitz - that's what I thought. I remember when a teenage girl I knew stood idly by while her boyfriend and another lad took letters out of a nearby post box, someone called the police and all three were threatened with being charged. The girl said she had done nothing, it was nothing to do with her, but the police said it was her duty to report what they were doing and by failing to do so she had broken the law. IIRC she was let off with a police caution, mostly due to the fact her father was seriously ill in hospital at the time and she was very dependent on her boyfriend for support, but she knew of course that what he and the other boy were doing was illegal.

It'll be interesting to hear more about this case, though the thought of two innocent children being killed is so sad. If adults decide to kill themselves, then that's up to them (more or less), but they have no right to take the life of a child. Everyone who gets born has a right to life.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  fedrules on Thu 20 May - 16:31

jeanie wrote:this is a very hard thing to say but, i have wondered if this woman killed her children so that they wouldn't be able to talk to the police...
'
At 11 months the youngest wouldn't be much of a threat. I imagine the post mortem will be able to establish if sexual abuse had occurred. It's my feeling that Lianne Smith was not in a normal state of mind when she committed this atrocious act and that it wasn't premeditated, but I do find it weird that she claims not even to have asked her husband about the abuse charges,especially considering her former job in child protection.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  jeanie on Thu 20 May - 16:31

imo..if this woman thought her partner was truly innocent why would she murder her children...he may have been found not guilty..he hadn't been to court....i can usually empathise with a lot but these kind of things are beyond my comprehension...
imo..the photo of the five year old is a lonely looking child


Last edited by jeanie on Thu 20 May - 16:37; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  fedrules on Thu 20 May - 16:35

jeanie wrote:imo..if this woman thought her partner was truly innocent why would she murder her children...he may have been found not guilty..he hadn't been to court....i can usually empathise with a lot but these kind of things are beyond my comprehension...
'
I can't imagine anyone being able to do this either, but I'm sure she was totally irrational and desperate at the time.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  jeanie on Thu 20 May - 16:39

desperate of what..kids in care or murder them....there is a choice there

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as above

Post  halfamo on Thu 20 May - 16:42

Did'nt the mother say she killed them because she was afraid SS would take them away from her?.I think that the little girl was known to SS in the UK and the family fled to spain slipping through the net ,as a result two children are dead,more questions than answers.IMO.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  fedrules on Thu 20 May - 16:55

jeanie wrote:desperate of what..kids in care or murder them....there is a choice there
'
I'm not saying I condone it or that I understand how she could do it, I'm saying that she was ill or suffering a breakdown at the time. Sadly, these sort of tragedies occur quite regularly.Seemingly normal men go home and shoot their families before turning the gun on themselves just because they are in financial difficulties or their wives are leaving them. There have been several cases over the past few years here in Switzerland. Sometimes people lose it and behave in a way which defies logic or explanation. It's my opinion that this woman was totally out of her mind when she did this terrible thing. I'm sure she can't live with herself now.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  LJC on Thu 20 May - 17:37

The McCanns are not going to like this story at all. Not one little bit. Especially they will be concerned that their own missing daughter Madeleine's case keeps being mentioned by the reporting journalists and it seems to be suggesting a link between how the Portuguese handled their case and how the Spanish Police have learned lessons from the Portuguese Police experience. They will be unhappy that their case is being linked with a murder investigation albeit indirectly.

Also they will be feeling uncomfortable with the coincidences cropping up. Both incidents happened in May, in neighbouring countries abroad, both in costal holiday resorts. Both families are white middle class, one from Leicestershire and one from Staffordshire, which are not very far away from one another. Gerry and Martin are both Irish names and there is a similarity in their looks. Both little girls are/were a similar age to each other with blond hair (in fact Rebecca looks a little like a Madeleine look-alike). Both mothers undertook work that put them in a position of trust. Both families are of Roman Catholic faith.

In this latest tragic case, the mother, IMO, did not have the support the McCanns had as she was alone in a holiday resort whereas the McCanns were with a large circle of friends. Therefore, if indeed Mrs Smith has cracked under pressure, she had no one with her to 'help'.

I don't know, but I can just envisage a situation here whereby if Mrs Smith had been in the company of others the children could have 'gone missing'.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  fred on Thu 20 May - 18:01

It is being reported that the mother has been taken back to the apartment and her arms are both bandaged, Sky news of course are saying that she of course tried to slash her wrists after she killed the children!

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Guest on Thu 20 May - 18:27

LJC wrote:The McCanns are not going to like this story at all. Not one little bit. Especially they will be concerned that their own missing daughter Madeleine's case keeps being mentioned by the reporting journalists and it seems to be suggesting a link between how the Portuguese handled their case and how the Spanish Police have learned lessons from the Portuguese Police experience. They will be unhappy that their case is being linked with a murder investigation albeit indirectly.

Also they will be feeling uncomfortable with the coincidences cropping up. Both incidents happened in May, in neighbouring countries abroad, both in costal holiday resorts. Both families are white middle class, one from Leicestershire and one from Staffordshire, which are not very far away from one another. Gerry and Martin are both Irish names and there is a similarity in their looks. Both little girls are/were a similar age to each other with blond hair (in fact Rebecca looks a little like a Madeleine look-alike). Both mothers undertook work that put them in a position of trust. Both families are of Roman Catholic faith.

In this latest tragic case, the mother, IMO, did not have the support the McCanns had as she was alone in a holiday resort whereas the McCanns were with a large circle of friends. Therefore, if indeed Mrs Smith has cracked under pressure, she had no one with her to 'help'.

I don't know, but I can just envisage a situation here whereby if Mrs Smith had been in the company of others the children could have 'gone missing'.



They just look like a normal everyday family don't they? just like you know who.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  jejune on Thu 20 May - 18:46

Dimsie wrote:
Twobitz wrote:Im no legal Eagal but have worked for a time in this field,so i stand to be corrected

Its my understanding that if she was AWARE of the warrant out for his arrest,and knew his whereabouts,but said nothing,then she could in theory be guilty of assisting an offender,or harbouring a fugative,possibly even perverting the course of justice if she aided his exit from the country,however,he would have to be convicted FIRST for those charges to stick against his wife.

There is also a litlle known piece of legistlation that requires every citizen to assist the police,though this is more in keeping with actually physically helping a police officer detain a suspect.

Hope that helps,like i said i could be wrong but thats as i understand it.
Thank, Twobitz - that's what I thought. I remember when a teenage girl I knew stood idly by while her boyfriend and another lad took letters out of a nearby post box, someone called the police and all three were threatened with being charged. The girl said she had done nothing, it was nothing to do with her, but the police said it was her duty to report what they were doing and by failing to do so she had broken the law. IIRC she was let off with a police caution, mostly due to the fact her father was seriously ill in hospital at the time and she was very dependent on her boyfriend for support, but she knew of course that what he and the other boy were doing was illegal.

It'll be interesting to hear more about this case, though the thought of two innocent children being killed is so sad. If adults decide to kill themselves, then that's up to them (more or less), but they have no right to take the life of a child. Everyone who gets born has a right to life.

I haven't had chance to check this out, but I thought that in British (and American) courts a spouse couldn't be made to testify against their partner. I'm not saying that this means they couldn't be accused of charges like aiding an offender - but if this the case, any information they offer about their spouse wouldn't be as useful in court as other corroborating evidence. Of course, presumably she'll be tried in Spain, which will have their own precedures. Don't know why I mentioned this really

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Guest on Thu 20 May - 19:42

Brunty's blog

Spain Tragedy: Someone Let Down The Children

May 20, 2010

Why did the Spanish police arrest Martin Smith on child sex crime allegations and allow his wife and their two children to disappear with such tragic consequences?

I'm trying to find an answer, but the three UK police forces involved seem reluctant to discuss their own responsibilities.

Spanish police were acting on British intelligence and someone might have considered taking a little more care of Lianne Smith, her daughter Rebecca, 5, and son, 11-month-old Daniel.

A source here in Lloret de Mar said the Spanish cops simply asked Mrs. Smith if she needed any help contacting her family in the UK.

She refused the offer and then vanished with the kids who were found dead two weeks later.

She has reportedly confessed to their murder.

Not surprisingly the Independent Police Complaints Commission is considering whether to investigate Cumbria Police, who were looking for Mr. Smith and Staffordshire Police who were in charge of the missing persons investigation around Lianne and Rebecca.

The Serious Organised Crime Agency was in charge of the Most Wanted appeals last year for the public's help in finding Mr. Smith.

Could SOCA have done more?

Someone let down those children.

http://blogs.news.sky.com/lifeofcrime/Post:db10777e-e34b-4a8c-b011-3caf52973850

IPCC takes up Spanish deaths case

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jcjtP3ZtattTffqwsPwc7at4WwNw

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Sterling10 on Thu 20 May - 19:58

I don't think that it's anything that the majority of us can comprehend. I'm of the view that nobody has the right to take any child's life, no matter what the circumstances. I feel like screaming 'why didn't she just kill herself' and let the children live their lives. She had no right, unfortunately it's something that is sadly commonplace in our society - parent getting back at the other parent or thinking that they 'own' that child.

She may have been in a very dark place, but her actions have ensured that it will only get darker. Tragically not as dark as the two little ones have paid the price.

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  Guest on Fri 21 May - 0:54

This child looks so unhappy



http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Spain-Hotel-Deaths-Mother-Of-Two-Children-Lianne-Smith-To-Hear-If-Judge-Rules-She-Will-Face-Charges/Article/201005315635845?f=rss

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Re: Breaking: Two British Toddlers Dead In Spanish Hotel

Post  pennylane on Fri 21 May - 8:50

jeanie wrote:imo..if this woman thought her partner was truly innocent why would she murder her children...he may have been found not guilty..he hadn't been to court....i can usually empathise with a lot but these kind of things are beyond my comprehension...
imo..the photo of the five year old is a lonely looking child

The fact that the mother was seen dragging the little girl roughly by her collar off of the balcony back into the room so soon before she killed her, makes me very suspicious about this woman. The picture of the little girl is filled with despair. Her eyes are so sad.

I believe the mother put her depraved partner and herself, before her children's needs. The result was her life spiralled into a big mess. She is both selfish and sick in equal measures imo.

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