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Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  Autumn on Mon 2 Jan - 22:32

AnnaEsse wrote:
NoStone wrote:
Velvet wrote:I'm not claiming anything, I'm merely saying that a witness to seeing Madeleine shouldn't be discredited because they say they saw her in an adult pool. What reason do the Boyds have to lie about where they seen her? There are two conclusions a) They saw their son playing with Madeleine in the big pool b) They saw their son with someone they believe to be Madeleine playing in the big pool. IF the Boyds are certain it was Madeleine, what reason would they have change the place from a child's pool to an adult pool? I do have to point out that the boyds seemed happy with their little boy (who was also three) playing around the big pool.

I have to stress I am not saying she was without doubt in the adult pool, but making the point that we don't know what pool she was in. We therefore cant discredit a witness who claimed to have seen her, because it doesn't fit in with our own perceptions of where she should/shouldn't have been.

Your claiming the siting was correct but the description of the location was wrong! Fair enough - so at least half the story is a lie. If it were totally true then Vicky (who works in a bank) would have said they played happily around the pool. Why would she lie and fabricate a waterslide?? - that's the point that discredits the story.....if half of it is a lie then how can we trust the rest?? Just like the many many other discrepancies in this case. The windows were jemmied - the windows were not jemmied - we did not search - we searched - the man was carrying a bundle - the man was carrying a child in pink PJ's - I only listened at the door- I went inside but did not see Madeleine - etc etc......everything that does not ring true will be questioned and these stones turned over and over until the truth outs!

I've been looking for images of the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, to find the swimming pools. So far, I haven't found a pool with a waterslide. Perhaps someone else can find one?


Slide and Splash at Lagoa is the nearest water park for somewhere to cool off on those hot summer days and Zoomarine at Guia (near Albufeira) although a little further away, (about a forty minute drive) is another great family day out - take your swimsuits as there are pools as well. Going west towards Sagres, there is a Blo karting track just beside the N125 past Vila do Bispo and of course there are always the more exposed beaches of the western atlantic coast around Sagres for surfing.

http://www.praiadaluzuncovered.com/
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  Wintabells on Mon 2 Jan - 23:33

gillyspot wrote:I've checked through the booking forms and the Boyds didn't stay at Ocean Club according to the PJ records.

lol
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  HiDeHo on Tue 3 Jan - 3:45

Just to add...

My point in scrutinising the witness statements that say they saw Madeleine was not to prove them wrong...for all we know some of the statements may be correct (though many are obviously mistaken about the child they saw being Madeleine)

What I was trying to establish was whether there was a sighting of Madeleine that had such credibility that it was reasonable proof that Madeleine was seen, in which case, something happening to her earlier in the week would be less probable.

Under the circumstances, one would think that there would be several reliable sightings of Madeleine.....not finding one is not only odd but it only helps CONFIRM the possibility that something happened to Madeleine earlier in the week.
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  jinvta on Tue 3 Jan - 4:31

HiDeHo,

That is a good point. I would think that anyone who was at the resort with the McCanns and saw Kate or Gerry McCann or both parents with the twins and an older blond child in tow, would have just assumed that it was Madeleine who was with the group. I know that I would have, particularly after the fact. I am sure that all of these witnesses meant well and that they truly thought that they saw Madeleine, but as you say, none of the sightings were very reliable. All of the sightings could have easily been cases of mistaken identity, as was the case with so many sightings after Madeleine disappeared.
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  HiDeHo on Tue 3 Jan - 4:50

The important point to me is, because I believe there is a possibility that something happened to Madeleine earlier in the week, that it is possible.

I find no need to prove that Madeleine was seen alive during the week of the holiday. That may or not be possible.

I believe that something happened earlier in the week. I am looking for SOMETHING to prove that was impossible...something to tell me that I am absolutely wrong because there is no doubt she was seen....

To date...I have not found anything...
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  Velvet on Tue 3 Jan - 8:47

marxman wrote:
Velvet wrote:I'm not claiming anything, I'm merely saying that a witness to seeing Madeleine shouldn't be discredited because they say they saw her in an adult pool. What reason do the Boyds have to lie about where they seen her? There are two conclusions a) They saw their son playing with Madeleine in the big pool b) They saw their son with someone they believe to be Madeleine playing in the big pool. IF the Boyds are certain it was Madeleine, what reason would they have change the place from a child's pool to an adult pool? I do have to point out that the boyds seemed happy with their little boy (who was also three) playing around the big pool.

I have to stress I am not saying she was without doubt in the adult pool, but making the point that we don't know what pool she was in. We therefore cant discredit a witness who claimed to have seen her, because it doesn't fit in with our own perceptions of where she should/shouldn't have been.

Hi Velvet, Context is paramount when extracting witness evidence.
If person is viewed within a nonsensible situation then it degrades
that particular testimony, does it not?

Hi marxman, I wholly agree with you. My point is, IS the boyds view nonsensible? If someone has a fact which discredits them then I can happily say yes I won't take her opinion into consideration. But I won't because someone else says, 'Well she should be discredited because Madeleines a child and a child won't be in the adult pool.' To be that's nonsensible. Do you see what I mean?
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  margaret on Tue 3 Jan - 10:33

HiDeHo wrote:As I mentioned before..

The statements do not prove that she WASN'T seen during the holiday, but NOT ONE after Sunday proves that she WAS seen!

(Please correct me if it is not apparent, but it may be necessary to check the link to see the original statement to understand how they are not totally credible)

Another confirmation, to me, of the possibility that something happened to her earlier in the week.

(If Fatima da Silva's statement claimed she saw them on Wednesday, and her work schedule allowed for that sighting, it would be enough for me to reconsider the earlier in the week possibility.)

However, by coincidence.....it shows as Sunday, the last time we can be relatively certain that she was seen.

It is open to scrutiny and keep in mind I have only summarised the discrepancies, but I really do challenge anyone to show me a credible sighting of her in that week.

What's interesting about this HiDeHo is that there is someone on Twitter who claims Maddie died on Sunday 29th and was subsituted in the creche everyday afterwards by another child of a couple who never get mentioned. He apparently analyses communications (i.e mobile phone data) 'who's contacting who and why'.

It is a fact that the only people who could say for sure they saw Maddie were the McCanns and the tapas crew, probably not including Dianne Webster, the others had holidayed together before.... holidaymakers could only assume they had seen THE 'Madeleine' because that was the elder girl child with the Mcs, could have been anyone!
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  marxman on Tue 3 Jan - 10:40

Velvet wrote:
marxman wrote:
Velvet wrote:I'm not claiming anything, I'm merely saying that a witness to seeing Madeleine shouldn't be discredited because they say they saw her in an adult pool. What reason do the Boyds have to lie about where they seen her? There are two conclusions a) They saw their son playing with Madeleine in the big pool b) They saw their son with someone they believe to be Madeleine playing in the big pool. IF the Boyds are certain it was Madeleine, what reason would they have change the place from a child's pool to an adult pool? I do have to point out that the boyds seemed happy with their little boy (who was also three) playing around the big pool.

I have to stress I am not saying she was without doubt in the adult pool, but making the point that we don't know what pool she was in. We therefore cant discredit a witness who claimed to have seen her, because it doesn't fit in with our own perceptions of where she should/shouldn't have been.

Hi Velvet, Context is paramount when extracting witness evidence.
If person is viewed within a nonsensible situation then it degrades
that particular testimony, does it not?

Hi marxman, I wholly agree with you. My point is, IS the boyds view nonsensible? If someone has a fact which discredits them then I can happily say yes I won't take her opinion into consideration. But I won't because someone else says, 'Well she should be discredited because Madeleines a child and a child won't be in the adult pool.' To be that's nonsensible. Do you see what I mean?

Hi Velvet, I understand your point but any investigator worth their salt would
view such a 'sighting' with caution and seek a more reliable situation for a
confirmation.
The adult swimming pool as a possible factual sighting must be deemed unreliable
for the following reasons;
Too many distractions,ie, noice,water activities, environmental situation
Parental transference ie, child assumed to belong to adults present.
Negative interest up and until after an event.
preconceptions,ie, child safety issues,

I have taken my grandchildren to the swimmers and I can't realistically
distinguish them apart from when they are home and dry.


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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  matthew on Tue 3 Jan - 10:51

margaret wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:As I mentioned before..

The statements do not prove that she WASN'T seen during the holiday, but NOT ONE after Sunday proves that she WAS seen!

(Please correct me if it is not apparent, but it may be necessary to check the link to see the original statement to understand how they are not totally credible)

Another confirmation, to me, of the possibility that something happened to her earlier in the week.

(If Fatima da Silva's statement claimed she saw them on Wednesday, and her work schedule allowed for that sighting, it would be enough for me to reconsider the earlier in the week possibility.)

However, by coincidence.....it shows as Sunday, the last time we can be relatively certain that she was seen.

It is open to scrutiny and keep in mind I have only summarised the discrepancies, but I really do challenge anyone to show me a credible sighting of her in that week.

What's interesting about this HiDeHo is that there is someone on Twitter who claims Maddie died on Sunday 29th and was subsituted in the creche everyday afterwards by another child of a couple who never get mentioned. He apparently analyses communications (i.e mobile phone data) 'who's contacting who and why'.

It is a fact that the only people who could say for sure they saw Maddie were the McCanns and the tapas crew, probably not including Dianne Webster, the others had holidayed together before.... holidaymakers could only assume they had seen THE 'Madeleine' because that was the elder girl child with the Mcs, could have been anyone!

Thats a theory i could go along with & it could account for the discrepencies in madeleines character from the creche staff...shy/outgoing

Still... to rely on a child, to pretend to be someone else...& more people added to cover up...


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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  NoStone on Tue 3 Jan - 11:02

matthew wrote:
margaret wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:As I mentioned before..

The statements do not prove that she WASN'T seen during the holiday, but NOT ONE after Sunday proves that she WAS seen!

(Please correct me if it is not apparent, but it may be necessary to check the link to see the original statement to understand how they are not totally credible)

Another confirmation, to me, of the possibility that something happened to her earlier in the week.

(If Fatima da Silva's statement claimed she saw them on Wednesday, and her work schedule allowed for that sighting, it would be enough for me to reconsider the earlier in the week possibility.)

However, by coincidence.....it shows as Sunday, the last time we can be relatively certain that she was seen.

It is open to scrutiny and keep in mind I have only summarised the discrepancies, but I really do challenge anyone to show me a credible sighting of her in that week.

What's interesting about this HiDeHo is that there is someone on Twitter who claims Maddie died on Sunday 29th and was subsituted in the creche everyday afterwards by another child of a couple who never get mentioned. He apparently analyses communications (i.e mobile phone data) 'who's contacting who and why'.

It is a fact that the only people who could say for sure they saw Maddie were the McCanns and the tapas crew, probably not including Dianne Webster, the others had holidayed together before.... holidaymakers could only assume they had seen THE 'Madeleine' because that was the elder girl child with the Mcs, could have been anyone!

Thats a theory i could go along with & it could account for the discrepencies in madeleines character from the creche staff...shy/outgoing

Still... to rely on a child, to pretend to be someone else...& more people added to cover up...


This is the difficult thing for me Matthew - normal practice would be for the children to wear name badges - a child badged with someone else's name would keep telling staff - I'm not Maddy I'm.....'

of course unless any of the other children had a middle name Maddy!!??


Last edited by NoStone on Tue 3 Jan - 11:03; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  margaret on Tue 3 Jan - 11:19

No, apparently this child was also called Madeleine - although with a different spelling.... A child of a couple called Naylor, if you check the creche records Gerry does sign the Naylors child into the creche, same handwriting and signature for both a child of Naylor AND The Mcs Madeleine.....

It would also account for the 'last photo' having to be 3rd May when the weather ties it to much earlier in the holiday...

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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  margaret on Tue 3 Jan - 11:27

Just been over to Twitter and found the photo, it's the same handwriting is it not?

Did Gerry sign in a child of Naylors and where do they fit in?



(It looks like you have to make the image fullsize to see Gerrys signature. IMO you can't say someone else wrote all the info and Gerry just signed it, it really does look like the same handwriting.)
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  NoStone on Tue 3 Jan - 11:30

margaret wrote:Just been over to Twitter and found the photo, it's the same handwriting is it not?

Did Gerry sign in a child of Naylors and where do they fit in?



(It looks like you have to make the image fullsize to see Gerrys signature. IMO you can't say someone else wrote all the info and Gerry just signed it, it really does look like the same handwriting.)

Hmmnn - so who were the Nayloy's - its the first time I have come across this Margaret!!!????
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  margaret on Tue 3 Jan - 11:30

Seen this aswell, what's it all about it links to this forum?

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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  margaret on Tue 3 Jan - 11:33

NoStone wrote:
margaret wrote:Just been over to Twitter and found the photo, it's the same handwriting is it not?

Did Gerry sign in a child of Naylors and where do they fit in?



(It looks like you have to make the image fullsize to see Gerrys signature. IMO you can't say someone else wrote all the info and Gerry just signed it, it really does look like the same handwriting.)

Hmmnn - so who were the Nayloy's - its the first time I have come across this Margaret!!!????

I know, me too. Could be something and nothing but it's odd, why have we never heard this couple mentioned? Where are their statements if they were known to the tapas lot.
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  matthew on Tue 3 Jan - 12:01

Jeez...just when i thought i knew all the players....

regarding the screenshot of gerrys cat No reference from kaossis...ive come across her on youtube channel...pretty sick....but if her youtube account has been hacked...

26/04-05/05 G4N Naylor (2) owner booking : This is the only naylor booking i could see at OC...



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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  matthew on Tue 3 Jan - 12:06

Naylor 2+1(2 children age 3, 11m) robert naylor is signed in at same creche as madeleine& im guessing he was the child aged 3+
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  margaret on Tue 3 Jan - 12:09

matthew wrote:Naylor 2+1(2 children age 3, 11m) robert naylor is signed in at same creche as madeleine& im guessing he was the child aged 3+

Robert Naylor is the person signing in a child, not the child itself.

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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  Not Born Yesterday on Tue 3 Jan - 12:28

I've heard a lot about the Naylor family on another forum. The debate is whether Gerry was signing someone else's child into creche and the handwriting does suggest that he was. This is strange because he supposedly knew nobody else there other than the party he'd travelled with. You would have to know someone well I feel to let them take your child to creche. From memory I think the Naylor child was called Elizabeth so I have no idea why her father's name was given rather than hers.

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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  Guest on Tue 3 Jan - 12:35

If Gerry can't even remember Margaret Madeleine's name, how do you expect him to be able to remember the name of somebody else's kid.
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  matthew on Tue 3 Jan - 12:41

NoStone wrote:
margaret wrote:Just been over to Twitter and found the photo, it's the same handwriting is it not?

Did Gerry sign in a child of Naylors and where do they fit in?



(It looks like you have to make the image fullsize to see Gerrys signature. IMO you can't say someone else wrote all the info and Gerry just signed it, it really does look like the same handwriting.)

Hmmnn - so who were the Nayloy's - its the first time I have come across this Margaret!!!????

Hi Margaret on the creche record..

Robert Naylor & below Madeleine Mccann...looks like these were the creche guests...no?

They do look the same handwriting though
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  matthew on Tue 3 Jan - 12:43

Forgot to add...26/04-05/05 G4N Naylor (2) owner booking

but in the creche records it states his room/apartment No as B1??
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  HiDeHo on Tue 3 Jan - 13:03

I try to avoid getting involved in creche records comparisons or the possibility of substitute children. Others have done extensive research in this area and are very detailed in the results of their findings.

I don't find the need to prove WHAT happened, only to look at whether the possibility exists that the records are questionable allowing for my continued belief that something happened earlier in the week.

The questionable credibility of the creche records continues to confirm to me that 'something happening earlier in the week theory' is possible.

This article shows some of the discrepancies in the creche records and the questionable credibility of Catriona's statement (she was able to change her original statement)

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/11/tvmais-at-what-time-did-maddie-leave.html
Some have doubts about the Ocean Club’s crèche records. The doubts increase if we pay attention to the depositions from Maddie’s last nanny

by Hernâni Carvalho

“The disappearance took place during the time period between 5.35 and 10.05 p.m. on the 3rd of May 2007”, reads the report from the 4th Brigade of the PJ in Portimão. A premiss that is now questioned. Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker was the nanny who worked at the crèche and was responsible for Maddie since the McCanns arrived in Praia da Luz. The statements that the nanny gave to the police raise doubts. After Maddie’s disappearance, she was heard by the PJ in Portimão. One week later, she was transferred to another location by her employers. Soon afterwards, she returned to England. At Leicestershire police, she was also heard, but corrected the statements that she had given in Portugal.

“I was allowed to refresh my memory by reading the translated version of my original statement to the Portuguese police”, one can read in the report that was taped by Leicester police. The contents of the nanny’s statements was such that she was heard three times on the same day, and had to have her memory refreshed. At Leicestershire police headquarters, Catriona Baker was heard by detective Gierc between 10.09 and 10.54 a.m. on Monday, the 14th of April 2008. Between 11.57 and 12.12 a.m. on the same day, she was heard again by the same detective and between 1.35 and 1.45 p.m. on the same day she was again questioned by the same detective.

«They Showed her the PJ's Report to Refresh her Memory»

The nanny revealed that she only met the McCanns in Portugal; she recognized that after returning to England she visited the couple upon their invitation, in November 2007. “I visited the family at their home following an invitation to see how all of us were doing.” The McCann couple is worried about searching for Maddie and about knowing how the nannies are doing. Catriona explained how the McCanns behaved in Portugal. “The twins sometimes looked tired at tea time, after a long day and maybe also because of the heat, but I never saw a reason for concern with the McCanns children or their behaviour.”

Maddie’s last nanny remembers extraordinary details about that last day, but she doesn’t remember who picked up Maddie and at what time. “On Thursday the 3rd of May 2007, I remember Gerry dropping Madeleine off at the club between 9.15 and 9.20 a.m. I don’t remember who picked her up for lunch that day, but in the afternoon she returned for a swim. We carried out activities with other children. On that day, we practiced sailing and I remember meeting friends of Madeleine’s parents on the beach, David and Jane. At around 2.45 p.m., Madeleine returned to the Minis Club above the reception, but I don’t remember who brought her. On that afternoon, we went swimming. Kate picked up Madeleine in the Tapas Bar area, and as far as I remember, she was wearing sports clothes at that time and I deducted that she had been jogging. It was around 3.35 – 6 p.m.”

At what time did the little girl leave after all?

Catriona can’t remember. She remembers Kate’s jogging suit. That’s not too bad. Coincidentally, Catriona Baker didn’t go out with her friends that day (the 3rd of May 2007). “Some of my colleagues were going out, but I was too tired to accompany them.”

Catriona Baker stated to the Portuguese and British police that on that day she went into her room to sleep because she was tired. And that’s why she only noticed that Madeleine McCann had disappeared when her colleagues from the crèche went to alert her. On that night, Mark Warner invited all the resort’s employees to cooperate in the searches for Maddie. “The director told us where to search. We searched everywhere. I walked most of the routes that Madeleine passed through and that could be familiar to her”, the nanny told the British police. Catriona Baker took part in the searches, but found neither Maddie not the McCanns. “I didn’t see Kate or Gerry that night.”

The Ocean Club crèches

There is a number of children clubs at the Ocean Club resort. The children are grouped according to their age. Clubs for 3-11 months (Baby Club), 12-23 months (Toddler Club), 24 months to 3 years (Toddler 2 Club), 3 to 5 years (Minis Club), 6 to 9 years (Juniors Club), 10 to 14 years (Kids Club) and from 14 to 17 years (Indies Club). In May 2007 there were 16 nannies at the Ocean Club. Catriona Baker is one of them. The importance of her deposition derives from the fact that she was the nanny who cared for Madeleine McCann.

Samples from the crèche records

Reports

The workings of the Ocean Club crèche was explained to the British police by Catriona herself: “Mark Warner has the usual procedure of signing a form whenever the parents leave the child in the club’s care, which they sign again with the name and the time at which the child was collected. There is a separate sheet for the morning shift and another for the afternoon shift. The sheet contains space for the child’s name, the time and the parent’s signature. Only parents are allowed to take the children, except when an agreement is made in another sense, in due time.”

In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did anyone notice?
Source: TvMais, paper edition only 18.11.2008

Questionable enough to continue to allow for the possibility something happened to Madeleine earlier in the week!
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  Lioned on Tue 3 Jan - 13:17

Which morning did the mccanns turn the cleaners away,and which day did gerry cancel his tennis lessons because of 'an injury' ?
Have i got that right or are these forum myths ?

In other words can you pin point the start of the 'strange/unusual' behaviour.And offcourse the 'crying' reported by Mrs Fenn.
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

Post  NoStone on Tue 3 Jan - 13:23

Oh I think I remember now! Was'nt this Sir Robert Naylor - high up in the NHS?? Did he not leave before the eek was up and take his children to their mother in France? Am I right? If so where do we get the info from that his daughter was also called Madeleine?
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Re: Was Madeleine Seen During the Holiday?

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