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The Information in the files that is with-held

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The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Loopdaloop on Sat 7 Jan - 4:29


Would this be possible evidence of with-held information? The statement of George Brooks where he stated how he saw a couple down by the marina with child a 6am in the morning is stated as 'missing' ?

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GEORGE_BURKE_BROOKS.htm#a5v1p7



During our conversation, she said that she has worked there since May of this year, the owner of the space being George Brooks, identified by the enclosed photocopy of his passport, which she provided.

She said that the whereabouts of the owner were unknown since the 21st September 2007. On this date he collected....

(following page 8 is missing)

Is there more obvious things missing or is this information just stored elsewhere? I was searching this and came across a good timeline from the 'leaving no stone unturned' blog http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/p/theory-english.html which has a really good speculation about the removal of the body



The encounter with the Smith family had been a disaster. Suddenly Gerry needed an alibi because he had been away from the table at the time of the meeting. The time of the actual alarm had to be confused so much that they could boldly place it at 22:00, the time of the Smith sighting. Therefore Kate's screaming from the balcony. But this was not enough. A completely independent witness had to give Gerry an alibi at the exact time of the abduction. The only independent witness that night had been Jeremy Wilkins and the time Gerry had met him was nowhere near the time of the Smith encounter. But it had to do... Poor Jane Tanner had to tell the police of her sighting of the abductor at the exact same time she had also seen Gerry and Jez talking together. In order to make her "vision" less obvious Gerry placed his meeting with Jez at the other side of the road further down. This made way for Jane's sighting, would explain why Jez did not see her and would also purport the theory that 3 witnesses never completely agree in their statements. The fact that the poor abductor had to wander the streets of Praia da Luz in search for the sea for 45 minutes was a fact the police should rack their brains about. Matthew's badly concocted statement about his visit in 5A served as additional “evidence“ that she was taken away between Gerry's and Matthew's check, thus by Jane's egg-man.



The plan was to remove the body from the apartment at 21:00, a time when parents, who dined at the tapas restaurant usually picked up their children from the children's club, often carrying them sleeping in their arms. Gerry had witnessed it live the night before with the parents at the next table and it would be a good disguise for him carrying Madeleine in the open. The kidnapping was planned for the period between 21:30 and 22:00, Matthew Oldfield's alleged check at 21:30 should confirm that at that time everything was still fine.The original plan possibly involved a different route to the beach, one that would be consistent with the comings and goings of parents carrying their children. Possibly through the little lanes of the "shortcut" Gerry had described to the police.

At 21:00 almost all the friends were gathered in the restaurant. Matthew, of whom Dianne Webster was not sure to have seen him there, was in the process of checking the usually deserted streets and roads around the apartment block and returned shortly after 21:00 back to the table with the message that all was clear. Therefore Gerry immediately stood up to allegedly perform another check on the children. A meaningless endeavour, if it had been true. In fact, he was now going to bring the body to a pre-defined location, reachable within 30 minutes maximum including the return trip. When he was in the garden behind the house, he noticed Jeremy Wilkins coming up the street with his son in a buggy. Matt had not seen him before as Jeremy had been circling the block while trying to persuade his son to sleep.

Gerry had to cancel his trip and layed Maddie quickly down in a flower bed under the porch where later on cadaver odour was found. Gerry stepped out of the garden gate to chat with Jeremy and to distract him. When Jeremy moved on Gerry went back to the table in the restaurant.

Now, it was Russell O'Brien's turn to search the streets for pedestrians but it was getting late. After the end of the meal Dianne Webster would be the first to go into her apartment like the evenings before and would not be available as a witness any longer. Therefore they decided to keep to the schedule of an abduction between 21:30 and 22:00 but to dispose of the body AFTER Kate's enacted discovery that was triggered by Russell's return. The schedule would not change, the "kidnapping" would still have happened between 21:30 and 22:00 with Gerry at the table during that time. Only Dianne had to be prevented from storming with the others to the apartment and seeing Gerry as he disappeared with Maddie towards the sea. Therefore, Dianne's daughter gave her the order to stay at the table in case Maddie should appear there. The whole thing went ahead shortly before 22:00 and Gerry hurried with Maddie in his arms straight into the group of the Smith family. He tried a different, more quiet route now - to no avail.

Now the situation changed radically. Gerry had no alibi any more for the time of the encounter with the family. Jane Tanner, in panic of being sued for neglect in Portugal agreed to tell the story of the hijacker who was crossing the street at exactly the time when the only independent witness was talking with Gerry. The man who thwarted the plan the first time, had now to serve as an alibi witness.

The tension that resulted from the change in plans shows clearly in the first police interview of Gerry when he erroneously told them details of the original plan, namely, that Matthew had noticed the blinds closed during his alleged check at 21:30, although under the new plan the abduction should already have happened at that time. A change in the statement was later made on 10 May. Suddenly Matt had seen a little more light in the room than could be expected with lowered shutters. A meagre attempt to change an originally positive sighting into evidence that she had already been abducted at that time.

What happened now when Gerry ran into the group of the Smith family? He could be sure that at least one of them would remember the encounter when the media reports came in the next day. Furthermore he did not have an alibi for this time because officially he was searching for Madeleine around the resort. He had to return to the apartment immediately to show himself in front of Dianne and other persons. The 30 minutes planned for the removal would be far too long, so an intermediate place had to be found that would withstand the first searches and would have been relatively close to the Smith sighting. There was an abandoned house right at the crossing that has recently been mentioned by Goncalo Amaral in a newspaper interview.

The body might have been placed there or in one of the other abandoned houses, but these places would not withstand a thorough search. In any case Gerry would have to be back at the Ocean's Club and was then seen by Dianne Webster when she entered the apartment for the second time that evening. During her first visit he had not been there.

Jane Tanner had now to be informed to give Gerry an alibi for the time of the abduction. The man she was supposed to describe had to resemble Gerry enough to correlate both sightings but had to be different enough to not be Gerry. Therefore especially the hair had to be changed. Egg-man got long hair at the back that would not have been noticed by the Smiths since they only saw the abductor with the child from the front.

During the search by police, staff, holidaymakers and residents the parents must have been desperate until the search finally died down at 4 am. They had now 2 hours during which everything was quiet.

Around 5 am. Gerry and Kate headed for the beach to allegedly do their first own search after their daughter's disappearance. There is nothing in the files about the locations they went. But there is a statement made by a George Brooks who was heading by car from Lagos to Praia da Luz and saw a couple carrying a child in his headlight who took a flight towards a side street when he approached. This tallies perfectly with the statement of Yvonne Martin saying that Kate told her on the morning of May 4th that Maddie had been abducted by a couple. At this time Kate could hardly have known about this sighting by George Brooks and Gerry had been talking about a paedophile abduction the evening before.



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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  NoStone on Sat 7 Jan - 9:16

This is interstin Loopdaloop - thanks for posting. It makes you wonder why, if death occured earlier in the week, was the body not well disposed of prior to waiting till Thursday to rasie the alarm?? Thinking about it it is obvious really - if the body was discovered before the 'abduction' was carried out then there would be no one else to blame but the parents. It does seem like a hasty disposal mind you, but if plans to move it had been disturbed then there would have been cause to come up with a panicked contingency before moving it to its original 'safer' place which might have happened at 6am!

Personally, I think this safer place was somewhere along the route they took jogging in the few days after so they could keep an eye and make sure it was not detected before moving it to an even safer place - the church maybe some days later.

Did not Kate say at one point she though Madeleine had been buried on a hill?? wa it nt a hill they uused to jog??

I wonder what the jogging route was and if there are any easily lifted drain covers or pipes or something along that path - somewhere where specks of forensics might still be lurking - the church as well maybe as the Mc's might have washed curtains in the apt, changed freezers in the villa but they could hardly justify a deep clean of the church - non??

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Guest on Sat 7 Jan - 9:30

I happily go along with the hypothesis of Madeleine meeting her fate much earlier than we have been brainwashed into thinking - but it concerns me that Amaral doesn't appear to share that opinion. Maybe the second book will help.

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Guest on Sat 7 Jan - 9:32

The End Is Nigh wrote:I happily go along with the hypothesis of Madeleine meeting her fate much earlier than we have been brainwashed into thinking - but it concerns me that Amaral doesn't appear to share that opinion. Maybe the second book will help.

Or maybe it is a bluff. There was a case on FBI files the other night, where the detectives told the suspect that they had spoken with a missing woman (they hadn't, because they suspected that she was dead). The reaction of the suspect told them everything that they needed to know.

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  pennylane on Sat 7 Jan - 9:56

Loopdaloop wrote:

Is there more obvious things missing or is this information just stored elsewhere? I was searching this and came across a good timeline from the 'leaving no stone unturned' blog http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/p/theory-english.html which has a really good speculation about the removal of the body



The encounter with the Smith family had been a disaster. Suddenly Gerry needed an alibi because he had been away from the table at the time of the meeting. The time of the actual alarm had to be confused so much that they could boldly place it at 22:00, the time of the Smith sighting. Therefore Kate's screaming from the balcony. But this was not enough. A completely independent witness had to give Gerry an alibi at the exact time of the abduction. The only independent witness that night had been Jeremy Wilkins and the time Gerry had met him was nowhere near the time of the Smith encounter. But it had to do... Poor Jane Tanner had to tell the police of her sighting of the abductor at the exact same time she had also seen Gerry and Jez talking together. In order to make her "vision" less obvious Gerry placed his meeting with Jez at the other side of the road further down. This made way for Jane's sighting, would explain why Jez did not see her and would also purport the theory that 3 witnesses never completely agree in their statements. The fact that the poor abductor had to wander the streets of Praia da Luz in search for the sea for 45 minutes was a fact the police should rack their brains about. Matthew's badly concocted statement about his visit in 5A served as additional “evidence“ that she was taken away between Gerry's and Matthew's check, thus by Jane's egg-man.



The plan was to remove the body from the apartment at 21:00, a time when parents, who dined at the tapas restaurant usually picked up their children from the children's club, often carrying them sleeping in their arms. Gerry had witnessed it live the night before with the parents at the next table and it would be a good disguise for him carrying Madeleine in the open. The kidnapping was planned for the period between 21:30 and 22:00, Matthew Oldfield's alleged check at 21:30 should confirm that at that time everything was still fine.The original plan possibly involved a different route to the beach, one that would be consistent with the comings and goings of parents carrying their children. Possibly through the little lanes of the "shortcut" Gerry had described to the police.

At 21:00 almost all the friends were gathered in the restaurant. Matthew, of whom Dianne Webster was not sure to have seen him there, was in the process of checking the usually deserted streets and roads around the apartment block and returned shortly after 21:00 back to the table with the message that all was clear. Therefore Gerry immediately stood up to allegedly perform another check on the children. A meaningless endeavour, if it had been true. In fact, he was now going to bring the body to a pre-defined location, reachable within 30 minutes maximum including the return trip. When he was in the garden behind the house, he noticed Jeremy Wilkins coming up the street with his son in a buggy. Matt had not seen him before as Jeremy had been circling the block while trying to persuade his son to sleep.

Gerry had to cancel his trip and layed Maddie quickly down in a flower bed under the porch where later on cadaver odour was found. Gerry stepped out of the garden gate to chat with Jeremy and to distract him. When Jeremy moved on Gerry went back to the table in the restaurant.

Now, it was Russell O'Brien's turn to search the streets for pedestrians but it was getting late. After the end of the meal Dianne Webster would be the first to go into her apartment like the evenings before and would not be available as a witness any longer. Therefore they decided to keep to the schedule of an abduction between 21:30 and 22:00 but to dispose of the body AFTER Kate's enacted discovery that was triggered by Russell's return. The schedule would not change, the "kidnapping" would still have happened between 21:30 and 22:00 with Gerry at the table during that time. Only Dianne had to be prevented from storming with the others to the apartment and seeing Gerry as he disappeared with Maddie towards the sea. Therefore, Dianne's daughter gave her the order to stay at the table in case Maddie should appear there. The whole thing went ahead shortly before 22:00 and Gerry hurried with Maddie in his arms straight into the group of the Smith family. He tried a different, more quiet route now - to no avail.

Now the situation changed radically. Gerry had no alibi any more for the time of the encounter with the family. Jane Tanner, in panic of being sued for neglect in Portugal agreed to tell the story of the hijacker who was crossing the street at exactly the time when the only independent witness was talking with Gerry. The man who thwarted the plan the first time, had now to serve as an alibi witness.

The tension that resulted from the change in plans shows clearly in the first police interview of Gerry when he erroneously told them details of the original plan, namely, that Matthew had noticed the blinds closed during his alleged check at 21:30, although under the new plan the abduction should already have happened at that time. A change in the statement was later made on 10 May. Suddenly Matt had seen a little more light in the room than could be expected with lowered shutters. A meagre attempt to change an originally positive sighting into evidence that she had already been abducted at that time.

What happened now when Gerry ran into the group of the Smith family? He could be sure that at least one of them would remember the encounter when the media reports came in the next day. Furthermore he did not have an alibi for this time because officially he was searching for Madeleine around the resort. He had to return to the apartment immediately to show himself in front of Dianne and other persons. The 30 minutes planned for the removal would be far too long, so an intermediate place had to be found that would withstand the first searches and would have been relatively close to the Smith sighting. There was an abandoned house right at the crossing that has recently been mentioned by Goncalo Amaral in a newspaper interview.

The body might have been placed there or in one of the other abandoned houses, but these places would not withstand a thorough search. In any case Gerry would have to be back at the Ocean's Club and was then seen by Dianne Webster when she entered the apartment for the second time that evening. During her first visit he had not been there.

Jane Tanner had now to be informed to give Gerry an alibi for the time of the abduction. The man she was supposed to describe had to resemble Gerry enough to correlate both sightings but had to be different enough to not be Gerry. Therefore especially the hair had to be changed. Egg-man got long hair at the back that would not have been noticed by the Smiths since they only saw the abductor with the child from the front.

During the search by police, staff, holidaymakers and residents the parents must have been desperate until the search finally died down at 4 am. They had now 2 hours during which everything was quiet.

Around 5 am. Gerry and Kate headed for the beach to allegedly do their first own search after their daughter's disappearance. There is nothing in the files about the locations they went. But there is a statement made by a George Brooks who was heading by car from Lagos to Praia da Luz and saw a couple carrying a child in his headlight who took a flight towards a side street when he approached. This tallies perfectly with the statement of Yvonne Martin saying that Kate told her on the morning of May 4th that Maddie had been abducted by a couple. At this time Kate could hardly have known about this sighting by George Brooks and Gerry had been talking about a paedophile abduction the evening before.


I absolutely subscribe to this theory! It's pretty much bang on the money imho.

It's riveting to read it laid out this way. Concise and brilliant!

Read it and weep TM.


Thank you for bringing this loopdaloop. xx

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Autumn on Sat 7 Jan - 12:46


A snippet from 'The Role of Michael Wright' article by TB ...... the whole article is well worth reading and makes you wonder what his part was in all of this.


The pizza girl

During this time, on 6th May, Michael Wright says he met a girl from Liverpool. He says he bought a large quantity of pizzas from a ‘pizza shack’ on the beach of Praia da Luz; the girl serving the pizzas was from Liverpool. She apparently told him that her father, known as ‘George B’, had seen a man carrying child during the very early hours of 4th May in the resort, the day after Madeleine ‘went missing’. Michael Wright apparently didn’t know if ‘George’ had been spoken to by authorities.

This possible ‘sighting’ of Madeleine was for some reason never mentioned by the McCanns, although they many times referred to the ever-changing and unreliable claimed sighting by Jane Tanner, and to another, at around 10.00pm on the evening of 3rd May, by a man from Ireland, Martin Smith.

A number of questions have been raised about this ‘sighting’ of ‘George B’. For example, did ‘George B’ report this ‘sighting’ to the Portuguese police? If so, it should of course be in the police files. If it wasn’t reported, why not? As Michael Wright was advised by the girl of this ‘sighting’, did he run and tell the McCanns? - and did the McCanns then contact the police?

Let us look at this another way. Suppose you're out there helping your close relations Kate and Gerry after the tragic abduction of their daughter. You go down to the beach on Sunday - just three days later - and go and get some pizzas. The girl there tells you that her father saw someone carrying a young girl on the night of 3rd/4th May. So - what do you do? You might, for example: (a) immediately ’phone Kate and Gerry to and tell them of the lead, or (b) contact the Portuguese police immediately, or (c) contact the UK Police immediately, or (d) ask the girl to make contact with the father so you can speak to him? But - no. Apparently Michael Wright does none of these things. He did nothing and apparently only mentions it to the police months later.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2270-madeleine-mccann-the-role-of-michael-wright


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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  matthew on Sat 7 Jan - 12:56

The pj did seem to know about him from at least 8th may

Email

To: DIC Portimao
Sent: 8th May 2007, 11.28
Subject: Fwd Madeleine McCann

From: M. Martins (sapo.pt email address)
Date: 8th May 2007, 10.14
To: DIC Portimao
Subject: Madeleine McCann

I have followed the case in the press as I live in the Algarve. However my attention has been drawn by the news that an English citizen (George Burke) who returned to the village in the morning from Lagos and who says that he saw a couple with a child at about 06.00. Would this person not be suspicious due to being from the village and be returning 7 seven hours after the events? Please excuse my boldness and if I am bringing false accusations due to lack of information, I apologise again but feel that I have to share my preoccupation. I hope this does not make you lose time.

Good luck
MM

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  matthew on Sat 7 Jan - 13:20

Does Kate state in her bewk that she did search 4th may?





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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Not Born Yesterday on Sat 7 Jan - 13:36

I haven't the stomach to read the book myself but others have said that Kate claims to have managed about an hour of searching the next day - but apparently only in frustration that the police were doing nothing!

I'm sure all parents can relate stories of children wandering off and how they rushed round tearing their hair out until the child was found. The way that the McCanns behaved then and since makes it impossible for me to believe them.

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Badboy on Sat 7 Jan - 13:42

I DID WORK OUT WHAT SOME OF THE THINGS IN THE WITH HELD FILES WERE,CAN'T REMEMBER WXACTLY,LETS SEE.
THE FOOTAGE OF ONE/TWO PEOPLE BEING IN A PLACE WHEN THEY SAY THEY WERE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
SECOND CARPENTER(CAROLYN?)STATEMENT.
THE STATEMENT OF THE PERSON WHOM THEY TRACED THE PHONE CALLS TO(IRRELEVANT TO CASE)
ATTEMPTS TO TRACE UNKNOWN GUESTS.
CRECHE LIST 28/29 APRIL 2007.
IS THERE A BAMFIELD/BAMFORD STATEMENT IN FILES?
`FRANCISA' STATEMENT

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Loopdaloop on Sat 7 Jan - 13:45

NoStone wrote:

Did not Kate say at one point she though Madeleine had been buried on a hill?? wa it nt a hill they uused to jog??

I wonder what the jogging route was and if there are any easily lifted drain covers or pipes or something along that path - somewhere where specks of forensics might still be lurking - the church as well maybe as the Mc's might have washed curtains in the apt, changed freezers in the villa but they could hardly justify a deep clean of the church - non??

I did enjoy how that blog laid it all out there. I do agree with regard to the jogging though, that must be the next step in where they hid the body.
I'd love to know what upset the priest. As a priest he performs a role similar to that of a counseller or a psychologist. Both counsellers and psychologists have to abide by a code of conduct with regard to confidentiality however if they become aware of a crime such as murder they have to report it. Surely priests abide by a similar code of conduct? or not?
Autumn wrote:
A snippet from 'The Role of Michael Wright' article by TB ...... the whole article is well worth reading and makes you wonder what his part was in all of this.

Let us look at this another way. Suppose you're out there helping your close relations Kate and Gerry after the tragic abduction of their daughter. You go down to the beach on Sunday - just three days later - and go and get some pizzas. The girl there tells you that her father saw someone carrying a young girl on the night of 3rd/4th May. So - what do you do? You might, for example: (a) immediately ’phone Kate and Gerry to and tell them of the lead, or (b) contact the Portuguese police immediately, or (c) contact the UK Police immediately, or (d) ask the girl to make contact with the father so you can speak to him? But - no. Apparently Michael Wright does none of these things. He did nothing and apparently only mentions it to the police months later.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2270-madeleine-mccann-the-role-of-michael-wright



With regard to Michael Wright and George Brooks; the previous link I had from the files shows that the police obtained his passport somehow?
So either he was interviewed, and this is how the got his passport or its very weird! I can't imagine why an employee would have access to a passport?

Part of me wonders if he could be on of these British Criminals that you read about that go and live in Spain or Portugal which might explain his reluctance to go to the police? also a pizza place is a good place to launder money....

A further part of that link caught my eye about the Mark Warner and Ocean Club


So, we have learned that on Friday 4th May, between 10.00 and 11.00am, Michael Wright spoke to Dr Kate McCann, who told him that she wanted her parents to come to Portugal. By then, it appeared that he was already in Liverpool. He went to Portugal on 5th May and stayed to 11th May, staying close by the McCanns in their new Ocean Club apartment (they had had to move from Apartment 5A). Clearly, Michael Wright was important and Dr Gerry McCann wanted him right there by his side - immediately. Throughout - for example when apparently going on a mission to chaperon Kate back to England for the christening/baptism of a friend, he seems to have acted as a ‘trusted lieutenant’.

By this time, Dr Gerry and Dr Kate McCann were then accommodated in the new ‘replacement’ apartment on first floor of ‘Building Four’ - believed to be Apartment 5D, which had been the Paynes’ apartment. Michael Wright is believed to have stayed on the floor above the McCanns. Later, it seems that the McCanns were moved by Mark Warners to another apartment in the Ocean Club complex - plus they were given an entirely separate apartment by Mark Warners so that they could run an office from which to operate their campaign to ‘find Madeleine’.

It appears that the company are similar to places like butlins, centreparks or haven where they can move your apartment if needs be to accommodate you better, which further begs the question why on earth was Gerry replacing the fridge himself when Mark Warner would have either sent someone out to change it or could have swapped their apartments like people do hotel rooms!! And if the Curtains were so filfthy that they needed washing and did not meet Kate's exacting standards then surely they would be more likely to angle for that room swap!

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  matthew on Sat 7 Jan - 13:46

Wasn't there two sisters..irwin/irwin who were at the tapas on the 3rd may..whose statement is not public?

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  margaret on Sat 7 Jan - 13:47

I've always said it was Gerrys job to tamper with the shutters but he couldn't do that when Jez appeared. Initial newspaper reports said Jez spotted Gerry 'by the shutters' or 'tampering with the shutters' because l was horrified when l read it and thought that no-one else seemed to be putting 2 and 2 together!

Explains everything nicely.

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Badboy on Sat 7 Jan - 13:51

matthew wrote:Wasn't there two sisters..irwin/irwin who were at the tapas on the 3rd may..whose statement is not public?
THAT ANOTHER STATEMENT WITHHELD.
I WONDER IF THE PJ INTERVIEWED PEOPLE TO DO WITH THAT IMPORT/EXPORT FIRM NEAR ABRANTES.
ARE THE EVELEIGH'S STATEMENTS IN THE FILES,ASSUMING THEY WERE INTERVIEWED?

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  HiDeHo on Sat 7 Jan - 14:04

The End Is Nigh wrote:I happily go along with the hypothesis of Madeleine meeting her fate much earlier than we have been brainwashed into thinking - but it concerns me that Amaral doesn't appear to share that opinion. Maybe the second book will help.

I believe it is important to use the information available to draw ones own conclusions.

Without question, I respect Goncalo Amaral's knowledge and comments on the case, as he saw them back in October 2007. He made it very clear that these were not his opinions they were the results of the investigations.

This could mean two things...He was suggesting that the results of the investigation were not his alone, that the responsibility of suggesting Madeleine is dead lies with the 'investigation'.

However, my interpretation is that the Investigation claims details about Madeleine's disappearance because that is all they are 'allowed' to use....(known witness statements) ie Madeleine alive at high tea.

If you watch his documentary he clearly states that Madeleine's bed appears to be not slept in, indicating that Madeleine was not in her bed the night of May 3rd and, because the cleaner made it up on Wednesday morning this also indicates that she didn't sleep in i on Wednesday night either. He clearly contradicts the theory of Madeleine getting up from her bed and going to the couch and having an accident behind the couch.

JdA has made a superb theory based on all the details available in the files. I wonder how many facts are unknown, and though she has done a magnificent job showing how all the details in the files 'fit', we share a lot of thoughts on the case but I still maintain a different possibility.

I have not searched to find how the details fit together.

I looked at the weeks discrepancies (and oddities). Originally I was of the belief it was Wednesday that something happened and then I saw they started on Mon/Tues.

I 'allowed' the details to take me in whichever direction they might. I looked for proof that would show my theory was incorrect.

There are a few questionable pictures that could be attributed to another day...

I took it for granted that my theory was going to be proved incorrect once I had researched the statements of those that saw Madeleine, but to my surprise NONE of them after Sunday proved she was seen. In the few peoples statements, they were either obviously mistaken or questionable at best.

No DNA found in the apartment.

The sudden choice of the McCanns to 'distance' themselves from the others during the week.

None of the above PROVES she was not around during the week but why is there nothing to prove she WAS?

We must all take the information and theories provided by others, but still retain our own opinions.

This isn't an effort to see which one of us is correct, it is to look at all possibilities as to what happened to little Madeleine so the truth can ultimately be known.

For me, this isnt about trying to prove the McCanns are guilty and seeing them sent to prison. That would probably be a relief for them.

What happens to the McCanns is irrelevent to me..

I only want the truth to be known and little Madeleine 'found' so she can be laid to rest in peace and with the dignity she deserves and her family given the opportunity to grieve and have closure.

Little Madeleine is what's important to me....



Here is a list of details missing from the files: (subject to one or two minor corrections)

Details that cannot be found in the DVD Police Files
http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Individual-Topics/Details-that-cannot-be-found-in-the-DVD-Police-Files-1-961243.html

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 7 Jan - 17:31

margaret wrote:I've always said it was Gerrys job to tamper with the shutters but he couldn't do that when Jez appeared. Initial newspaper reports said Jez spotted Gerry 'by the shutters' or 'tampering with the shutters' because l was horrified when l read it and thought that no-one else seemed to be putting 2 and 2 together!

Explains everything nicely.

I recall reading that article about Jez finding Gerry by the shutters. It appears to have disappeared.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
"You can run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Sooner or later God'll cut you down." (Johnny Cash)

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  cass on Sat 7 Jan - 22:38

AnnaEsse wrote:
margaret wrote:I've always said it was Gerrys job to tamper with the shutters but he couldn't do that when Jez appeared. Initial newspaper reports said Jez spotted Gerry 'by the shutters' or 'tampering with the shutters' because l was horrified when l read it and thought that no-one else seemed to be putting 2 and 2 together!

Explains everything nicely.

I recall reading that article about Jez finding Gerry by the shutters. It appears to have disappeared.
anna like a lot of stuff thatsbeen whooshed over the years . theres so much stuff thats gone from forums news , sky being the biggest one to whoosh stuff . like the jane hill thing

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Lioned on Sat 7 Jan - 23:07

HiDeHo wrote:
The End Is Nigh wrote:I happily go along with the hypothesis of Madeleine meeting her fate much earlier than we have been brainwashed into thinking - but it concerns me that Amaral doesn't appear to share that opinion. Maybe the second book will help.

I believe it is important to use the information available to draw ones own conclusions.

Without question, I respect Goncalo Amaral's knowledge and comments on the case, as he saw them back in October 2007. He made it very clear that these were not his opinions they were the results of the investigations.

This could mean two things...He was suggesting that the results of the investigation were not his alone, that the responsibility of suggesting Madeleine is dead lies with the 'investigation'.

However, my interpretation is that the Investigation claims details about Madeleine's disappearance because that is all they are 'allowed' to use....(known witness statements) ie Madeleine alive at high tea.

If you watch his documentary he clearly states that Madeleine's bed appears to be not slept in, indicating that Madeleine was not in her bed the night of May 3rd and, because the cleaner made it up on Wednesday morning this also indicates that she didn't sleep in i on Wednesday night either. He clearly contradicts the theory of Madeleine getting up from her bed and going to the couch and having an accident behind the couch.

JdA has made a superb theory based on all the details available in the files. I wonder how many facts are unknown, and though she has done a magnificent job showing how all the details in the files 'fit', we share a lot of thoughts on the case but I still maintain a different possibility.

I have not searched to find how the details fit together.

I looked at the weeks discrepancies (and oddities). Originally I was of the belief it was Wednesday that something happened and then I saw they started on Mon/Tues.

I 'allowed' the details to take me in whichever direction they might. I looked for proof that would show my theory was incorrect.

There are a few questionable pictures that could be attributed to another day...

I took it for granted that my theory was going to be proved incorrect once I had researched the statements of those that saw Madeleine, but to my surprise NONE of them after Sunday proved she was seen. In the few peoples statements, they were either obviously mistaken or questionable at best.

No DNA found in the apartment.

The sudden choice of the McCanns to 'distance' themselves from the others during the week.

None of the above PROVES she was not around during the week but why is there nothing to prove she WAS?

We must all take the information and theories provided by others, but still retain our own opinions.

This isn't an effort to see which one of us is correct, it is to look at all possibilities as to what happened to little Madeleine so the truth can ultimately be known.

For me, this isnt about trying to prove the McCanns are guilty and seeing them sent to prison. That would probably be a relief for them.

What happens to the McCanns is irrelevent to me..

I only want the truth to be known and little Madeleine 'found' so she can be laid to rest in peace and with the dignity she deserves and her family given the opportunity to grieve and have closure.

Little Madeleine is what's important to me....



Here is a list of details missing from the files: (subject to one or two minor corrections)

Details that cannot be found in the DVD Police Files
http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Individual-Topics/Details-that-cannot-be-found-in-the-DVD-Police-Files-1-961243.html


Thank you HiDeHo.......... I have said before that the behaviour of the suspects prior to the 3rd is a telling feature of this.

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Autumn on Sun 8 Jan - 5:22

matthew wrote:Wasn't there two sisters..irwin/irwin who were at the tapas on the 3rd may..whose statement is not public?


Matthew yes there were 2 sisters, Jayne Jensen & Annie Wiltshire. They claim they both saw Murat on the night of Maddie's disappearance. But sister Wiltshire was not booked in at the resort until 7th May 2007. Until the 7th the booking was only in sister Jensen's name.


Extract from an interview with the sisters - Daily Mail 31st Dec 2007

Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months.
The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
They intended to remain anonymous but when their names were leaked to a Portuguese newspaper and they found themselves wrongly accused of waiting eight months before coming forward, they decided to reveal the truth.
The sisters said they were immediately struck by the behaviour of the two men on the balcony.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html#ixzz1iqBGsmmD

Booking Alterations
Jayne Marie Jensen room G4J changed her reservation not once, but twice. Sometime between the 1st and before 1am on the 3rd, Jayne Jensen makes the first of two changes to her booking. The booking is changed from ending on the 5th, to ending on the 12th, increasing her stay by 1 week. 3 days later it changes once again and this time she adds on her sisters name Wiltshire.

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Guest on Sun 8 Jan - 9:35

I believe that this is the two sisters who accosted Robert Murat and tried to get him to buy them drinks. What does that tell you?

Guest
Guest


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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Not Born Yesterday on Sun 8 Jan - 10:01

There were also two sisters called Irwin as Matthew asked but I know very little about them other that they were American and one was pregnant at the time.

P.S. I think one was called Bridget (or a variant spelling) and one of them was a nurse.


Last edited by Not Born Yesterday on Sun 8 Jan - 12:36; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Sentence added)

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Autumn on Sun 8 Jan - 14:58



MW guests who were dining at the Tapas that evening do not appear to have had statements taken:

EDMONDS

MANN

BULLER

IRWIN

SPERREY

PATEL

COX ... no initial statement altho' one was later obtained from her partner - PATEL


All these people were eating in the Tapas for varying periods of time from 7pm to at least 9.30 pm - so you would think that their 'recollections' of the evening would be of interest to the police, wouldn't you?

But maybe such statements were requested and obtained from these people but have not been released on the DVD

__________________________________________________________

GM May 10th
States that on Thursday, 03/05/07, there was no one by the name of IRWIN sitting at the table nor does he know anyone with that name.
Asked, he mentions that on Thursday, 3 May 2007, there was nobody from outside of the group seated at the table, nor does he know any person with the name IRWIN.

Jane Tanner
On these holidays, she never met nor dined (along with the rest of the group) with any family or person having the surname "Irwin".

RMO
----- Questioned, she said that on Thursday, 03/05/2007, there was no body sitting at the table, strange to the group, and she does not know anyone with the name "IRWIN."

This must have come about for two very important reasons.

1. They were booked in exactly the same time as the tapas 9, when the alarm was raised.

2. More importantly, they appeared before the McCann's booking, who we know booked their table in advance 5 days before that night.

So you can see why they were all quizzed on the Irwin's.



http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Ocean-Club-Guests/RE-Random-Info-1-807105.html

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Autumn on Sun 8 Jan - 15:21

Not Born Yesterday wrote:There were also two sisters called Irwin as Matthew asked but I know very little about them other that they were American and one was pregnant at the time.

P.S. I think one was called Bridget (or a variant spelling) and one of them was a nurse.


Yes the Irwins were the 2 British sisters who dined in the Tapas Bar at the same time as the Tapas group. I would expect they gave statements but, for whatever reason, have not been released. Lets hope one day we get to read them.

Why did the PJ ask the McCanns and friends about the Irwins?

Rachel Oldfield

Questioned, she said that on Thursday, 03/05/2007, there was no body sitting at the table, strange to the group, and she does not know anyone with the name "IRWIN."
----- She added that it was David Payne who organized this trip, and the apartment where she was already intended at the time she made the check in, there not having been any choice.

Jane Tanner

On these holidays, she never met nor dined (along with the rest of the group) with any family or person having the surname "Irwin".

Asked who had made the first booking at Tapas, JT did not know. Also doesnt know anyone by the name of ?Irwin? and no one of this name having dinner with them. Apart from Jane, only Matthew Oldfield was sick and he missed dinner on Sunday.

Matthew Oldfield

By the way, he denied that at any time did any individuals named IRWIN form part of the table, refuting equally that he had made the acquaintance of anyone so named.


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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  Autumn on Mon 9 Jan - 13:15

MW guests who were dining at the Tapas that evening do not appear to have had statements taken:

EDMONDS

MANN

BULLER

IRWIN

SPERREY

PATEL

COX ... no initial statement altho' one was later obtained from her partner - PATEL


______________________________________

Should Wayne Thornhill and partner and Carolyn Carpenter be on that list or did they make statements?

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

Post  matthew on Mon 9 Jan - 13:34

Autumn wrote:MW guests who were dining at the Tapas that evening do not appear to have had statements taken:

EDMONDS

MANN

BULLER

IRWIN

SPERREY

PATEL

COX ... no initial statement altho' one was later obtained from her partner - PATEL


______________________________________

Should Wayne Thornhill and partner and Carolyn Carpenter be on that list or did they make statements?

Maybe not in the files incase of a reconstruction?

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Re: The Information in the files that is with-held

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