Stephen Lawrence Forensic to be used in Madeleine McCann case /Littlemorsals

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er, then the world will know true peace" ~ Jimi Hendrix
Friday, 6 January 2012
Stephen Lawrence Forensic to be used in Madeleine McCann case
According to the Daily Express

“SCIENTIFIC advances used in the Stephen Lawrence case could solve the mysteries of Madeleine McCann and Jill Dando.

Forensic experts working on the racist murder devised new techniques to discover microscopic clues that convicted two of the killers.

Now Scotland Yard hopes the same revolutionary approach could help find the truth behind the disappearance of three-year-old Madeleine in 2007 and the killing of BBC Crimewatch presenter Miss Dando in 1999.”

The forensic experts the Daily Express mention is LGC Forensics http://www.lgc.co.uk/divisions/lgc_forensics.aspx who not only provided key evidence in the Stephen Lawrence case but also for Joana Yeates, Rachel Nickell, Damilola Taylor as well as others, details of each can be read here. Most of these cases were previously overseen by Birmingham forensic Science Service (FSS) who, so it would seem, overlooked vital clues, ones which LGC picked up on and consequently brought the respective murderers to justice. As you may recall it was FSS who were also involved with the Madeleine McCann case. If they overlooked vital clues in other cases is it possible they also overlook clues in Madeleine’s?

Madeleine McCann case

Even though LGC appear to have an excellent track record, it’s difficult to understand how they will be of use in the McCann case.

In previous cold cases handled by LGC they had the benefit of clothing and/or footwear from possible suspects and/or items from the deceased, but in the McCann case there is nothing from the supposed ‘abductor’ to test forensically (least of all any evidence that there was ever an intruder, except for the word of the McCann couple), nor has Madeleine’s body been found...as yet...if she is indeed dead of course.

However, if Scotland Yard is willing to put aside the McCann abduction scenario, then LGC could work on the only items available...those alerted to by Eddie and Keela. But then that is dependent on whether or not Kate’s trousers and other personal items belonging to the McCann couple have been kept in storage. If they have then it seems possible that LGC could use them as a starting block and re-examine them for possible clues.

But what if those personal items have since been returned? What is left to examine? Nearly five years have gone by since Madeleine’s disappearance so it’s unlikely that the car hired by the McCann couple (also alerted to by Eddie) will be of any use... unless it is true that the lining of the car boot was securely locked away in the Birmingham forensic Science Service (FSS) – which, incidentally, is due for complete closure by March 2012 – and is still available for further tests.

It doesn’t matter which way I look at the possibility of LGC re-examining the McCann case I can’t seem to pin down anything which they could use...or am I overlooking something? Perhaps the hairs, blood and other forensics originally sent to FSS by the Portuguese police have not been destroyed as we have been led to believe?

We can only hope that if there is any truth in the Daily Express article, then there is something left to be examined.
Posted by Sasha at 11:45

The Express is probably speculating here; it sells newspapers and keeps up the pressure on TM who are no friends of theirs. As far as re-testing forensic samples is concerned, it would be a serious case of misconduct if indeed the FSS had already destroyed samples provided for testing, unless the very method of testing such samples destroyed them in the process. I do recall that samples were also sent to the Portuguese own labs for testing and therefore it is quite possible that forensic evidence can still be found by a highly competent lab.

T4two wrote:The Express is probably speculating here; it sells newspapers and keeps up the pressure on TM who are no friends of theirs. As far as re-testing forensic samples is concerned, it would be a serious case of misconduct if indeed the FSS had already destroyed samples provided for testing, unless the very method of testing such samples destroyed them in the process. I do recall that samples were also sent to the Portuguese own labs for testing and therefore it is quite possible that forensic evidence can still be found by a highly competent lab.

Apologies T4Two, I should have been more specific in my blog entry. I meant that perishables had apparently been destroyed by FSS (blood; saliva; swabs and so on). I will update the blog entry as soon as I can to add the information. Thank you for pointing this out

I cannot provide a link because unfortunately Pamalam has removed McCannPJFiles, however, it is still available via Google cache:

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm+site:mccannpjfiles.co.uk+perishable&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2i1aTkAe_QEJ:www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm+site:mccannpjfiles.co.uk+perishable&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Date 2007.08.21

Letter from the FSS

Destruction of Samples


Investigating officer. Stuart Prior


A - Perishable samples.

Certain samples constitute a potential health risk. With the concurrence of the Home Office, it has been decided that such samples will not be submitted to the courts unless specifically requested by the Defence. (This is an extension of the procedures for the disposal of blood samples previously agreed by the Lord Chief Justice, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the former Chief Metropolitan Magistrate.

The laboratory has examined one or more of the samples listed below. They will not be returned to you but will be destroyed in due course unless we are requested by the Defence to preserve them. You should notify the Defence solicitors in accordance with Home Office circulars 40/73 and 74/82 which allow a period of 21 days in which notice in writing must be given, by the defendant or his legal representative to the laboratory to prevent the samples being destroyed.

- Blood samples.
- Saliva samples.
- Swabs from body orifices.
- Other swabs bearing potentially hazardous material.
- Vomit, faeces, urine, etc.

The above list includes perishable personal samples, the destruction of which is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (1984).

B - Non-Perishable samples

The destruction of other, non-perishable personal samples is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. These include:

- Control head hair samples.
- Control pubic hair samples.
- Finger nail samples.
- Casts- e.g of teeth or feet.

Except as below those non-perishable personal samples are returned to you as parts of exhibits for production at court, etc. The laboratory is not responsible for their destruction.

The part of these samples which were removed for examination, will be retained by the laboratory for the period of time as specified in the MOU for Retained Materials (3, 7 or 30 years) from the date of this notice to allow access to other legitimate parties. After this period, in the absence of written instruction to the contrary, the retained samples will be destroyed and a record made of their destruction.

Signed.

Dated 21st August 2007.

Page one of one

Update: Apologies for the duff information. Pamalam's site is up and running but I cannot access it from my computer for some reason. I can however access it from Mr Morsals.

I thought some DNA was sent to Spain ....or did it not.

You know, with the Stephen Lawrence case where there was just ONE speck.....the McCann case had MORE than ONE speck......the wall behind the settee....the tiles.....the boot off the car......this case was REEKING with blood samples....


How can EVERY sample off either been destroyed or as they said.....not enough to do a repeat test.


Rubbish.

kitti wrote:I thought some DNA was sent to Spain ....or did it not.

kitti yes in the early days there was talk of a very small amount being taken to spain , but that was in the 3as i think , can anyone remember ? was it one of iornsides posts

I think this is the papers messing with our heads again.

kitti wrote:I thought some DNA was sent to Spain ....or did it not.

I'm not sure about Spain but they did send samples from Apartment 5A and saliva swabs to the Genetics and Biological Forensics Service of the INML - Lisbon.

Edited to add:

Mr Amaral asked whether in the tests done by the INML Madeleine's profile was established.

Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral:

“We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.”

Other questions asked by Mr Amaral:

4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry.

5. In the follow-up of point 4, we request to be informed whether in the English profile the girl is the daughter of the McCann couple.

Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral:

- The samples were then studied using mitochondrial DNA analysis, the same was done for the other samples, giving the results in accordance with our report of 9th July No. 2007/000226 LX-BC.

- As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.

If I’m understanding this correctly then it appears that none of the samples from the Portuguese lab yielded anything positive regards Madeleine, while there seems to be a question mark over the results from FSS (could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.)

Link: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm#p9p2416

kitti wrote:You know, with the Stephen Lawrence case where there was just ONE speck.....the McCann case had MORE than ONE speck......the wall behind the settee....the tiles.....the boot off the car......this case was REEKING with blood samples....


How can EVERY sample off either been destroyed or as they said.....not enough to do a repeat test.


Rubbish.

Out of all the forensics used in the Lawrence case I'm a tad suspicious of the technique used for the blood spot. The new technique (called DNA SenCE) uses only two or three human cells when normally 200 would be needed, then magnified 60-fold...I’m no expert but that sounds a similar technique to LCN used in the McCann case.

SashaM wrote:

kitti wrote:I thought some DNA was sent to Spain ....or did it not.

I'm not sure about Spain but they did send samples from Apartment 5A and saliva swabs to the Genetics and Biological Forensics Service of the INML - Lisbon.

Edited to add:

Mr Amaral asked whether in the tests done by the INML Madeleine's profile was established.

Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral:

“We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.”

Other questions asked by Mr Amaral:

4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry.

5. In the follow-up of point 4, we request to be informed whether in the English profile the girl is the daughter of the McCann couple.

Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral:

- The samples were then studied using mitochondrial DNA analysis, the same was done for the other samples, giving the results in accordance with our report of 9th July No. 2007/000226 LX-BC.

- As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.

If I’m understanding this correctly then it appears that none of the samples from the Portuguese lab yielded anything positive regards Madeleine, while there seems to be a question mark over the results from FSS (could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.)

Link: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm#p9p2416

Very interesting SashaM ,

"4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry."

This question indicates that there was attempts made to generate a genetic profile of Madeleine from samples found in PDL and the reply -

" “We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.”

Would this be referring to the analysis of the hair samples only , or other biological samples also?

SashaM wrote:

kitti wrote:You know, with the Stephen Lawrence case where there was just ONE speck.....the McCann case had MORE than ONE speck......the wall behind the settee....the tiles.....the boot off the car......this case was REEKING with blood samples....


How can EVERY sample off either been destroyed or as they said.....not enough to do a repeat test.


Rubbish.

Out of all the forensics used in the Lawrence case I'm a tad suspicious of the technique used for the blood spot. The new technique (called DNA SenCE) uses only two or three human cells when normally 200 would be needed, then magnified 60-fold...I’m no expert but that sounds a similar technique to LCN used in the McCann case.

It's claimed that this new process avoids some of the difficulties traditionally associated with low template DNA ( LCN ), specifically contamination of the samples.

The difficulties of establishing Madeleine's DNA profile, which even led to McCann's trip to Rothley to obtain a sample from her pillow, are frankly beyond comprehension for the average observer. I'm still not convinced that her profile has been established beyond all possible doubt. To my mind this is one of the most compelling reasons for keeping the corpse hidden.

T4two wrote:The difficulties of establishing Madeleine's DNA profile, which even led to McCann's trip to Rothley to obtain a sample from her pillow, are frankly beyond comprehension for the average observer. I'm still not convinced that her profile has been established beyond all possible doubt. To my mind this is one of the most compelling reasons for keeping the corpse hidden.

I would agree with you there T4two.

If for example you and I were siblings and I went missing and no DNA / biological sample could be found to create my genetic profile, only a stain on a pillow case which when compared to your profile proved not to be yours but did contain common inherited markers .... would that prove conclusively then it was from me without any other sample from me to compare it to ?

Processos Vol IX, pages 2280 to 2281

THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE®
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior
Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks
Police reference: 07/06085 Qperation TASK
Laboratory reference:
Order reference: 300 555190
Scientist:400 913 609
Scientist: LESLEY DENTON
Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Kate HEALY 51162896) and Gerald McCANN (51162897).

A DNA profile has also been obtained from a pillowcase (SJM/1).

DNA profiling reveals a series of bands, half of which a child inherits from their natural mother (maternal) and half of which ït ïnherits from their natural father
(paternal)

In this case, all of the bands present in the profïle of abtained from the pillowcase are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of theirs.

The results of the DNA profife obtaïned from the pïllowcase is approximately 29 million times more likely if the profïle originates form a natural child of theirs rather than someone unrelated to them.

In my opinion, the results detailed above provide extremely strong support for the view that the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN.

Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could have originated fromher as the genetics would be in keeping with those described above.

If I can be of further assitance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01XXX XXXXXX.

Yours sincerely

Lesley Anne Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 28 June 2007


Forensic Report, 18 July 2007

Processos Vol IX, pages 2287 to 2288

THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE®
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior
Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks
Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK
Laboratory reference: 300 655 190
Order reference: 400 922 755
Scientist: Lesley Denton
Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Amelie Eve McCANN (SBM/2) and Sean Michael McCANN (SBM/3).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profiles of both Amelie McCANN and Sean McCANN are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if Amelie McCANN and Sean Michael McCANN were their natural children.

Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile.

If I can be of further assistance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01937 548287.

Yours sincerely,

Lesley Ann Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 18 July 2007

ELI wrote:

T4two wrote:The difficulties of establishing Madeleine's DNA profile, which even led to McCann's trip to Rothley to obtain a sample from her pillow, are frankly beyond comprehension for the average observer. I'm still not convinced that her profile has been established beyond all possible doubt. To my mind this is one of the most compelling reasons for keeping the corpse hidden.

I would agree with you there T4two.

If for example you and I were siblings and I went missing and no DNA / biological sample could be found to create my genetic profile, only a stain on a pillow case which when compared to your profile proved not to be yours but did contain common inherited markers .... would that prove conclusively then it was from me without any other sample from me to compare it to ?

From Processos Vol IX, pages 2280 to 2281: Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could have originated from her as the genetics would be in keeping with those described above.

Conclusive? Apparently not.

The twins were not the donors of the dna on the pillow case but another child of the mccanns...still unbelievable that after 6 days on holiday there was no dna of madeleine there & that includes blood under the tiles,on curtains,on sofa...what blood on there was either no match or not enough for a meanigful interpretation...from what i know the boot of the hire car had the closest match to madeleines dna(15/19)...i dont know if the item(s) tested were kept


Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

matthew wrote:The twins were not the donors of the dna on the pillow case but another child of the mccanns...still unbelievable that after 6 days on holiday there was no dna of madeleine there & that includes blood under the tiles,on curtains,on sofa...what blood on there was either no match or not enough for a meanigful interpretation...from what i know the boot of the hire car had the closest match to madeleines dna(15/19)...i dont know if the item(s) tested were kept


Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

From Processos Vol IX, pages 2280 to 2281: Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could have originated from her as the genetics would be in keeping with those described above.

Not nitpicking for the sake of it here matthew, but this quote from the FSS laboratory appears to be at odds with other quotes when it talks about a formal possibility not a 29 million to one chance or whatever. Sufficient for any barrister worth his salt to cast reasonable doubt on the veracity of any forensic evidence submitted in a court case? IMO yes.
A feature of this case is the suspects' behaviour in pre-empting possible lines of inquiry and causing maximum confusion. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that fluids from used nappies were indeed intentionally deposited in the Renault Scenic to be found by forensic teams in case the dogs marked the car. I'd even go as far as to accept the possibility that the corpse was not actually carried to its resting place in the Scenic but in a second vehicle. IMO the case will not be solved by forensics without the body being found and even then, it would still appear to be an extremely difficult undertaking. But based on recent precedences British police do not always need forensic evidence or even a body to obtain convictions.

Don't they do a standard blood test when a baby is born to screen for certain problems? Could there be DNA info stored too? Would have been the ideal place to get positive DNA.

ETA....just looked it up on the NHS website.

For police forensic work
In certain unusual situations the police can apply for a court order to allow them access to the blood spot cards of specified dead or missing individuals for forensic purposes.

Angelina wrote:Don't they do a standard blood test when a baby is born to screen for certain problems? Could there be DNA info stored too? Would have been the ideal place to get positive DNA.

ETA....just looked it up on the NHS website.

For police forensic work
In certain unusual situations the police can apply for a court order to allow them access to the blood spot cards of specified dead or missing individuals for forensic purposes.

I still have the clamps that were used to seal the cords, for all of my children, AND their first teeth. Doesn't every mum keep these?

Angelina wrote:Don't they do a standard blood test when a baby is born to screen for certain problems? Could there be DNA info stored too? Would have been the ideal place to get positive DNA.

ETA....just looked it up on the NHS website.

For police forensic work
In certain unusual situations the police can apply for a court order to allow them access to the blood spot cards of specified dead or missing individuals for forensic purposes.

Thank you Angelina. Now that's interesting. You'd have thought Leicestershire Constabulary would have known all about that - so why did they go to all the trouble of accompanying McCann to Rothley mansions to pick up a pillowcase I wonder? Just to see what he'd do perhaps? Btw. Got a link?

Iris wrote:

Angelina wrote:Don't they do a standard blood test when a baby is born to screen for certain problems? Could there be DNA info stored too? Would have been the ideal place to get positive DNA.

ETA....just looked it up on the NHS website.

For police forensic work
In certain unusual situations the police can apply for a court order to allow them access to the blood spot cards of specified dead or missing individuals for forensic purposes.

I still have the clamps that were used to seal the cords, for all of my children, AND their first teeth. Doesn't every mum keep these?

Nope but I've got some hair from the first time it was cut.

There was a blood sample - On 12 October 2007, the Forensic Science Service received a blood spot in a cardboard frame (object JRB/1) from Leicestershire Constabulary. That object was inside a sealed package.

This sample matched the saliva sample on the pillowcase, however, this is where it gets interesting, note the date it was recieved, 12th Oct. , I believe the 'first' FSS report is dated 6 September 2007.

So any comparisons done between the evidentiary samples found in the apartment and hired vehicle could only have been done using the profile created from pillow case sample. But without another definite sample I would question if the only definite components or markers which would prove conclusive may have been those that are shared with siblings and parents - ie familial markers.

Hi t4two,if im reading it right,the formal possibility was in place...untill they collected dna from the twins...

matthew wrote:Hi t4two,if im reading it right,the formal possibility was in place...untill they collected dna from the twins...

Thank you. If that be so, I stand corrected of course although I do still tend to believe that there is sufficient confusion concerning the missing child's actual DNA to make it extremely difficult to establish evidence beyond reasonable doubt without actually finding the body. But at least recent precedents show that it is not actually necessary for British police to have DNA evidence or even a body in order to prosecute a case succesfully and I should have thought that there are sufficient other lines of investigation to follow here where medical or scientific knowledge cannot be used to muddy the waters.