The Majorca Holiday 2005

Autumn Sat 14 Jan - 13:10

Not much is known about this holiday so thought it would be a good idea to have a place to put any info about it. Who was there, how well did they know each other, who invited who along, how long were they there.

From Katherina Gaspar's Witness Statement

In September of 2005, Savio, I and Ellena, who at the time was 1 and a half years old, spent our holidays abroad, in Majorca. We went (page 2) on holidays with Kate, Gerry, and Madeleine, who should have been around 2 and a half years old and with the twins, Sean and Amelie, who were just months old. I remember that I was pregnant with Isabella.

On those holidays, with us, were as well friends of Gerry and Kate.

There was a couple, whose names were Dave and Fiona, and whose family name was PAYNE, I believe. I think that they were married and had one daughter with about 1 year old, named Lilly. I remember that on those holidays, Fiona was pregnant.

There was another couple, whose names were Tara and Stuart, and whose family name I cannot remember who were also on holidays with us. They had two boys, of 1 and 3 years old, whose names I do not remember. I did not know these two families until we went on holidays together. From memory, I think that it was David who organised these holidays and we all stayed together in a big house in Majorca.

We spent a week on holidays, however, the MCCANN family and the PAYNE family stayed for two weeks. I think that Tara and Stuart, and their two children, also stayed for just one week.

Guest Sat 14 Jan - 13:21

It would indeed be interesting to know more about the other couple Tara and Stuart and whether they are still in contact with the McCanns.

Autumn Sat 14 Jan - 13:34

I did not know these two families until we went on holidays together

So this makes clear that the Gaspars did not know the couples David & Fiona or Stuart and Tara before the holiday.

Katherina said in her statement
During our holidays I was more attentive at bath time after hearing Dave saying that.

During our vacation in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children's baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to be careful and to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, to my daughter E*****. I was very clear about this, as having heard him saying that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E***** alone.

_________________________________

I hadn't realized that the Gaspars didn't know the Payne's at all until the Majorca holiday. So to me the fact that David Payne was discussing bathing the children is very unsettling to say the least. Why did DP feel the need to say the fathers took care of bathing the children. And bathing children that were total strangers to him is very odd behaviour by anyone's standards.

**tanszi** Sat 14 Jan - 13:43

on that point i agree Autumn, i would also add to that to say that i wouldnt be happy to let anyone i had known less than a week to bathe my children, male or female. I also find it strange that it was almost like an instruction that the fathers bathed the children that week in Majorca, or perhaps thats my interpretation, in any event, holiday or not i would do what i usually did with the children. Not all children have a bath every evening do they, sometimes theyre so tired a wash of the hands and face is enough, im not talking young children who need nappies changed etc, so for me the whole children having a bath every evening is odd, or maybe im odd lol.

Autumn Sat 14 Jan - 13:45

Not Born Yesterday wrote:It would indeed be interesting to know more about the other couple Tara and Stuart and whether they are still in contact with the McCanns.

Little is known about them but remember reading on another forum that they are Stuart and Tara Gold and Stuart is a doctor. .

**Panda** Sat 14 Jan - 14:01

As anyone knows, I have no time for the Gaspar Statement for the simple reason. her Husband saw nothing wrong with the way Payne and McCann
behaved, the Mccanns met the Gaspars a few months after the holiday for lunch and it was only after Dr Gaspar read about Madeleine that she remembered??????

Brian Kennedy , the benefactor, owned a Property in Majorca and I wonder if it was his Villa the group stayed in.

**ann_chovey** Sat 14 Jan - 14:36

Autumn wrote:
Not Born Yesterday wrote:It would indeed be interesting to know more about the other couple Tara and Stuart and whether they are still in contact with the McCanns.

Little is known about them but remember reading on another forum that they are Stuart and Tara Gold and Stuart is a doctor. .

Tara Gold, University of Dundee 1991-6

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/FRIENDS.htm

**ann_chovey** Sat 14 Jan - 14:45

Not Born Yesterday wrote:It would indeed be interesting to know more about the other couple Tara and Stuart and whether they are still in contact with the McCanns.

Tara Gold is on facebook and lists her interests as Official FindMadeleine campaign.

flower Sat 14 Jan - 15:20

"I think that it was David who organised these holidays and we all stayed together in a big house in Majorca."

So, there were four families all living together in one house.

I'm not sure about anyone else but I would dread the thought of a holiday with another 3 familieis in the one house if I knew only one of the other families. I can think of nothing worse than a weeks holiday all under the one roof if the majority were people I had never met before. Does anyone else think this strange or is it just me??!!............

tigger Sat 14 Jan - 16:03

Panda wrote:As anyone knows, I have no time for the Gaspar Statement for the simple reason. her Husband saw nothing wrong with the way Payne and McCann
behaved, the Mccanns met the Gaspars a few months after the holiday for lunch and it was only after Dr Gaspar read about Madeleine that she remembered??????

Brian Kennedy , the benefactor, owned a Property in Majorca and I wonder if it was his Villa the group stayed in.

If they stayed in a villa owned by Brian Kennedy, the plot certainly thickens! Because I cannot believe that he got involved in the whole affair without having some kind of close link with the McCanns.
It's difficult to trace of course, but it's not so long ago that it's impossible to track down the actual villa.

As far as the Gaspar statement goes, in my experience men often do not see anything wrong where women and especially mothers are more finely tuned. If dr. Gaspar didn't see anything wrong with the group, it doesn't mean that there wasn't this undercurrent linking sex and children.

If the person who has arranged the holiday and made the 'booking' tells you it's customary for the fathers to bathe the children each night, my alarm bells would be ringing. Who is this friend of a friend to tell me who is going to bathe my child?
If I see and hear him make questionable gestures and remarks, I will definitely not let him near my child and certainly file away the incident in my memory.

**Panda** Sat 14 Jan - 16:17

Many men today tigger have hands on experience in bathing their children and if Dr Gaspar felt so strongly why did she agree......would you?

Why did she not go to Social Services after the Holiday? Why not confront Gerry when they were having lunch a few months after the holiday and ask
point blank what Payne meant by the gesture? Why not ask on the night in the villa come to that.?

**Badboy** Sat 14 Jan - 16:24

tigger wrote:
Panda wrote:As anyone knows, I have no time for the Gaspar Statement for the simple reason. her Husband saw nothing wrong with the way Payne and McCann
behaved, the Mccanns met the Gaspars a few months after the holiday for lunch and it was only after Dr Gaspar read about Madeleine that she remembered??????

Brian Kennedy , the benefactor, owned a Property in Majorca and I wonder if it was his Villa the group stayed in.

If they stayed in a villa owned by Brian Kennedy, the plot certainly thickens! Because I cannot believe that he got involved in the whole affair without having some kind of close link with the McCanns.
It's difficult to trace of course, but it's not so long ago that it's impossible to track down the actual villa.

As far as the Gaspar statement goes, in my experience men often do not see anything wrong where women and especially mothers are more finely tuned. If dr. Gaspar didn't see anything wrong with the group, it doesn't mean that there wasn't this undercurrent linking sex and children.

EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING,BK OWNS A VILLA IN MAJORCA/MALLORCA, I THINK IT WAS A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE THAT MENTIONED IT,HE FEEL BORED LIVING IN RETIREMENT,SO DECEIDED TO KEEP DOING BUSINESS,

If the person who has arranged the holiday and made the 'booking' tells you it's customary for the fathers to bathe the children each night, my alarm bells would be ringing. Who is this friend of a friend to tell me who is going to bathe my child?
If I see and hear him make questionable gestures and remarks, I will definitely not let him near my child and certainly file away the incident in my memory.

**margaret** Sat 14 Jan - 16:37

Panda wrote:Many men today tigger have hands on experience in bathing their children and if Dr Gaspar felt so strongly why did she agree......would you?

Why did she not go to Social Services after the Holiday? Why not confront Gerry when they were having lunch a few months after the holiday and ask
point blank what Payne meant by the gesture? Why not ask on the night in the villa come to that.?

She probably didn't want to ponder on her worries, if she saw everyone else letting the bathtimes go ahead she was probably sizing everything and everybody up, not wanting her fears to be real.

No-one wants to think that of people and to be the whistleblower in case you're wrong but when Madeleine went missing on the next holiday with Payne in tow what she experienced became too important to ignore.

FWIW in my opinion that is what lies at the heart of this case. People just don't want to believe it because they're doctors, if this was a bunch of lowlife families they'd be in prison by now.

**Badboy** Sat 14 Jan - 16:58

INTERESTINGLY,JON CORNER HAS A CONNECTION(INDIRECTLY?) IN THAT A DEBUTANTE? HIRED SOMEONE TO DO A PREFORMANCE FOR THEM.

**T4two** Sat 14 Jan - 17:09

Badboy wrote:INTERESTINGLY,JON CORNER HAS A CONNECTION(INDIRECTLY?) IN THAT A DEBUTANTE? HIRED SOMEONE TO DO A PREFORMANCE FOR THEM.

What kind of performance was that Badboy - any ideas?

**T4two** Sat 14 Jan - 17:11

margaret wrote:
Panda wrote:Many men today tigger have hands on experience in bathing their children and if Dr Gaspar felt so strongly why did she agree......would you?

Why did she not go to Social Services after the Holiday? Why not confront Gerry when they were having lunch a few months after the holiday and ask
point blank what Payne meant by the gesture? Why not ask on the night in the villa come to that.?

She probably didn't want to ponder on her worries, if she saw everyone else letting the bathtimes go ahead she was probably sizing everything and everybody up, not wanting her fears to be real.

No-one wants to think that of people and to be the whistleblower in case you're wrong but when Madeleine went missing on the next holiday with Payne in tow what she experienced became too important to ignore.

FWIW in my opinion that is what lies at the heart of this case. People just don't want to believe it because they're doctors, if this was a bunch of lowlife families they'd be in prison by now.

Spot on margaret. IMO that is exactly the mindset. Running to social services or raising the matter on the spot is the last thing anyone would do.
ETA it actually stengthens the Gaspar statement because they appear to have been reluctant to take any action at all. Only when something happened i.e. the disappearance of the child involved.

**pennylane** Sat 14 Jan - 17:18

Contacting the police about her suspicion regarding Dr David Payne bathing the children, and his disgusting, sexually explicit conversation with Dr Gerry McCann regarding Madeleine, must have been daunting and very stressful indeed. It would not have been a step she took lightly against a fellow doctor.

God bless Katerina Gaspar, she is one brave lady!

**Badboy** Sat 14 Jan - 17:27

T4two wrote:
Badboy wrote:INTERESTINGLY,JON CORNER HAS A CONNECTION(INDIRECTLY?) IN THAT A DEBUTANTE? HIRED SOMEONE TO DO A PREFORMANCE FOR THEM.

What kind of performance was that Badboy - any ideas?

MUSIC,I BELIEVE

Oldartform Sat 14 Jan - 17:37

Panda wrote:Many men today tigger have hands on experience in bathing their children and if Dr Gaspar felt so strongly why did she agree......would you?

Why did she not go to Social Services after the Holiday? Why not confront Gerry when they were having lunch a few months after the holiday and ask
point blank what Payne meant by the gesture? Why not ask on the night in the villa come to that.?

Not everyone is that confrontational Panda and would prefer to wait and watch, particularly as you know you`re just going to get defensive answers and put their guard up. She may be a reserved personality who wouldn`t want to bring something seedy immediately out into the open. Anyway when dealing with with a suspected crime, its best not to let the culprit know you suspect them.

Dr. Stuart Gold and Tara Gold live in Ashbourne, Derbyshire. He is an a consultant in Anaesthesia at Derby Hospital - maybe thats how he met the MCs as KM studied anaesthesia.

**T4two** Sat 14 Jan - 17:57

pennylane wrote:Contacting the police about her suspicion regarding Dr David Payne bathing the children, and his disgusting, sexually explicit conversation with Dr Gerry McCann regarding Madeleine, must have been daunting and very stressful indeed. It would not have been a step she took lightly against a fellow doctor.

God bless Katerina Gaspar, she is one brave lady!

Indeed! But, probably also feels partly responsible in a way, as in, "If only I'd said something then, all this might not have happened".

**pennylane** Sat 14 Jan - 18:10

T4two wrote:
pennylane wrote:Contacting the police about her suspicion regarding Dr David Payne bathing the children, and his disgusting, sexually explicit conversation with Dr Gerry McCann regarding Madeleine, must have been daunting and very stressful indeed. It would not have been a step she took lightly against a fellow doctor.

God bless Katerina Gaspar, she is one brave lady!

Indeed! But, probably also feels partly responsible in a way, as in, "If only I'd said something then, all this might not have happened".

I'm sure you are right T4two.

Reporting someone as a paedophile is a very scary thing to do, and it ruins lives and careers and can be extremely difficult to prove. I mentioned some time ago that I had a situation where I suspected my room mate's ex-husband (a school teacher) of molesting their 8 year old daughter. The dad lived some ways off and taught at the school the little girl went to, hence she stayed with him on school nights, and us at the weekends... it was a temporary arrangement until the mum found a place nearer the school. As the weeks went by, I noticed some alarming behaviour and things said by the little girl that gave me cause for concern, but when I mentioned them to the mother, she told me I was absolutely insane and completely dismissed them. This floored me, and the thought of ruining everyone's life on a "suspicion," which even the mother didn't agree with, made me lose my nerve. The irony is the husband was a jazz musician at weekends and a bit of a lady's man, which is what broke the marriage up, and so the mother just couldn't see the possibility he was molesting their young daughter.

Now that I'm much older and wiser, I am convinced my concerns were valid!

Velvet Sat 14 Jan - 19:23

Autumn wrote:I did not know these two families until we went on holidays together

So this makes clear that the Gaspars did not know the couples David & Fiona or Stuart and Tara before the holiday.

Katherina said in her statement
During our holidays I was more attentive at bath time after hearing Dave saying that.

During our vacation in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children's baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to be careful and to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, to my daughter E*****. I was very clear about this, as having heard him saying that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E***** alone.

_________________________________

I hadn't realized that the Gaspars didn't know the Payne's at all until the Majorca holiday. So to me the fact that David Payne was discussing bathing the children is very unsettling to say the least. Why did DP feel the need to say the fathers took care of bathing the children. And bathing children that were total strangers to him is very odd behaviour by anyone's standards.

Hi Autumn, I completely agree it is odd behavior that he was discussing bathing children he never knew. What puzzles me more is why Katrina Gasper allowed it to happen, ESPECIALLY after she heard Dave and Gerrys conversation. For the safety of your children you wouldn't care, a simple 'No thank you I'll bath my own daughter,' would suffice.

**kitti** Sat 14 Jan - 19:29

Panda...men only see what they want to see.

Do you think that a man wants to admit that there is another man in the pack who is quite unsavoury ..

Off course the man doesn't ....women are more....gut feeling sort off people.......a man is...'oh dont be silly, you imagined it'.....a few drinks.....the talk turns to coff coff........'dear, you had a drink, forget it'...

But she didn't And she hadn't

I have been in the company off some slimey men I can tell you but I can honestly say NONE off them have made me think their comments were made towards paedophillia.....none.

**kitti** Sat 14 Jan - 19:32

Velvet, she never let David Payne bathe her kids, she told her hubby to keep an eye on him whilst he was bathing her and to make sure he was there at all times whilst payne was in the vicinity.

Velvet Sat 14 Jan - 19:36

kitti wrote:Velvet, she never let David Payne bathe her kids, she told her hubby to keep an eye on him whilst he was bathing her and to make sure he was there at all times whilst payne was in the vicinity.

Oh sorry I read that completely wrong!! No wonder I was really disturbed!! Thanks for correcting me!

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