The Majorca Holiday 2005

Buy our Tatty Bumpkin Cuddle Cat & ALL Gross Profits from the sale will go to the Madeleine McCann Fund



is this some relation to Cuddle Cat?

Panda wrote:As anyone knows, I have no time for the Gaspar Statement for the simple reason. her Husband saw nothing wrong with the way Payne and McCann
behaved, the Mccanns met the Gaspars a few months after the holiday for lunch and it was only after Dr Gaspar read about Madeleine that she remembered??????

Brian Kennedy , the benefactor, owned a Property in Majorca and I wonder if it was his Villa the group stayed in.

Panda do you have any info about the property he owned in Majorca?

Was BK living in Majorca at the time the group were on holiday there?

"I did semi-retire; I lived in Majorca. It drove my kids nuts and it drove me nuts. I would travel, I would see seriously monied people in these executive lounges and exclusive hotels and they all had one thing in common: they looked miserable, absolutely bloody miserable. They look for the next big high, the next big stimulus. But what they are trying to replace is what all of us want and need: a job.

tigger wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:I think I'm right in saying that the McCanns didn't know Brian Kennedy until some months after Madeleine disappeared. That's the official story anyway.

Yes, indeed, that is the official story. I don't believe it, because I can use a spoon.....

Here's a BBC report about the official first connection in September 2007.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7008872.stm

Autumn wrote:Buy our Tatty Bumpkin Cuddle Cat & ALL Gross Profits from the sale will go to the Madeleine McCann Fund



is this some relation to Cuddle Cat?

Nope. Doesn't smell of multiple cadavers.

tanszi wrote:on that point i agree Autumn, i would also add to that to say that i wouldnt be happy to let anyone i had known less than a week to bathe my children, male or female. I also find it strange that it was almost like an instruction that the fathers bathed the children that week in Majorca, or perhaps thats my interpretation, in any event, holiday or not i would do what i usually did with the children. Not all children have a bath every evening do they, sometimes theyre so tired a wash of the hands and face is enough, im not talking young children who need nappies changed etc, so for me the whole children having a bath every evening is odd, or maybe im odd lol.

Yes tanszi I agree. David Payne appears to have been very much in charge and was making it clear to the Gaspars what was expected of them form the outset. I imagine it would have been an awkward situation for the Gaspars as they wouldn't want to come over as being mistrustful of the other men and looking like they were making a fuss about nothing if they objected.

Does anyone know if the fathers were bathing the children on the PDL holiday?

Wintabells wrote:So there were 7 children in Majorca:

E. G. 18 months
L. P. 12 months
M.McC. 30 months
S+A McC. ? months
Boy (1) 12 months
Boy (2) 36 months

By my reckoning, only 3 of them were walking age (ie. more than babies). From what I remember, little kids are quite difficult to bath if they need to be constantly supported or unless you've got one of those special baby chairs with suckers that stick inside the bath and the child can then safely sit in it and splash around with toys and so on or unless you get in with the child yourself.

So I'm wondering which of these kids were being bathed together? I would have thought the McC children would all be bathed together, and same for Boy (1) and (2) so that leaves the two 'only' children (L.P and E.G), both of whom had a pregnant mum, which may have some bearing on why the men were the designated bathers. But why's it so important to bath these little children? how dirty can they be?? what is this obsession with cleanliness? it's not even healthy. (http://www.parenting.com/article/too-many-baths)

ok, rant over.

Im sure many parents cut corners on holidays and make do with a quick hands and face clean up some evenings. As you say Wintabells just how dirty can little ones get in a day? The Gaspars didn't know two of the men from a hole in the road yet one of them, David P, had the temerity to tell them that he, along with another male stranger Stuart Gold, would be bathing their child that week!

Autumn wrote:

tanszi wrote:on that point i agree Autumn, i would also add to that to say that i wouldnt be happy to let anyone i had known less than a week to bathe my children, male or female. I also find it strange that it was almost like an instruction that the fathers bathed the children that week in Majorca, or perhaps thats my interpretation, in any event, holiday or not i would do what i usually did with the children. Not all children have a bath every evening do they, sometimes theyre so tired a wash of the hands and face is enough, im not talking young children who need nappies changed etc, so for me the whole children having a bath every evening is odd, or maybe im odd lol.

Yes tanszi I agree. David Payne appears to have been very much in charge and was making it clear to the Gaspars what was expected of them form the outset. I imagine it would have been an awkward situation for the Gaspars as they wouldn't want to come over as being mistrustful of the other men and looking like they were making a fuss about nothing if they objected.

Does anyone know if the fathers were bathing the children on the PDL holiday?

FP rogatory....

Yeah, I think you’re going into the evening. I’m just thinking we probably, erm, I think that night Dave probably took the kids back, our kids, a bit, you know, before we’d finished, to start off, erm, bath time, erm, and we, we would probably come along a bit later to help him, just to finish the tennis, I think that was sort of six until seven. Erm, but other than that, yeah, we would have, erm, done our usual routine, bedtime routine”.

ann_chovey wrote:

Autumn wrote:

tanszi wrote:on that point i agree Autumn, i would also add to that to say that i wouldnt be happy to let anyone i had known less than a week to bathe my children, male or female. I also find it strange that it was almost like an instruction that the fathers bathed the children that week in Majorca, or perhaps thats my interpretation, in any event, holiday or not i would do what i usually did with the children. Not all children have a bath every evening do they, sometimes theyre so tired a wash of the hands and face is enough, im not talking young children who need nappies changed etc, so for me the whole children having a bath every evening is odd, or maybe im odd lol.

Yes tanszi I agree. David Payne appears to have been very much in charge and was making it clear to the Gaspars what was expected of them form the outset. I imagine it would have been an awkward situation for the Gaspars as they wouldn't want to come over as being mistrustful of the other men and looking like they were making a fuss about nothing if they objected.

Does anyone know if the fathers were bathing the children on the PDL holiday?

FP rogatory....

Yeah, I think you’re going into the evening. I’m just thinking we probably, erm, I think that night Dave probably took the kids back, our kids, a bit, you know, before we’d finished, to start off, erm, bath time, erm, and we, we would probably come along a bit later to help him, just to finish the tennis, I think that was sort of six until seven. Erm, but other than that, yeah, we would have, erm, done our usual routine, bedtime routine”.

Seems to be a pattern emerging...David P seems to have appointed himself as being in charge of bathing the children on every group holiday. Just wondering Ann is this referring to their own children or others as well?

Autumn wrote: Seems to be a pattern emerging...David P seems to have appointed himself as being in charge of bathing the children on every group holiday. Just wondering Ann is this referring to their own children or others as well?.

I assume just their own children. I think Maddie shared a bathtime with the O'Brien children once , it was I think in one of JT's statements.

Autumn wrote:

tanszi wrote:on that point i agree Autumn, i would also add to that to say that i wouldnt be happy to let anyone i had known less than a week to bathe my children, male or female. I also find it strange that it was almost like an instruction that the fathers bathed the children that week in Majorca, or perhaps thats my interpretation, in any event, holiday or not i would do what i usually did with the children. Not all children have a bath every evening do they, sometimes theyre so tired a wash of the hands and face is enough, im not talking young children who need nappies changed etc, so for me the whole children having a bath every evening is odd, or maybe im odd lol.

Yes tanszi I agree. David Payne appears to have been very much in charge and was making it clear to the Gaspars what was expected of them form the outset. I imagine it would have been an awkward situation for the Gaspars as they wouldn't want to come over as being mistrustful of the other men and looking like they were making a fuss about nothing if they objected.

Does anyone know if the fathers were bathing the children on the PDL holiday?

Well, it's interesting to note the subtext in the 'why didn't you come when I cried?' In the book, Kate says something like ; we couldn't think when she would have been crying, they'd not seen her cry at all, was it during bath time? - that means that neither of them would have been there at bath time.
So... (this is not a literal quote, but approx.)

tigger wrote:

Autumn wrote:

tanszi wrote:on that point i agree Autumn, i would also add to that to say that i wouldnt be happy to let anyone i had known less than a week to bathe my children, male or female. I also find it strange that it was almost like an instruction that the fathers bathed the children that week in Majorca, or perhaps thats my interpretation, in any event, holiday or not i would do what i usually did with the children. Not all children have a bath every evening do they, sometimes theyre so tired a wash of the hands and face is enough, im not talking young children who need nappies changed etc, so for me the whole children having a bath every evening is odd, or maybe im odd lol.

Yes tanszi I agree. David Payne appears to have been very much in charge and was making it clear to the Gaspars what was expected of them form the outset. I imagine it would have been an awkward situation for the Gaspars as they wouldn't want to come over as being mistrustful of the other men and looking like they were making a fuss about nothing if they objected.

Does anyone know if the fathers were bathing the children on the PDL holiday?

Well, it's interesting to note the subtext in the 'why didn't you come when I cried?' In the book, Kate says something like ; we couldn't think when she would have been crying, they'd not seen her cry at all, was it during bath time? - that means that neither of them would have been there at bath time.
So... (this is not a literal quote, but approx.)

Who was there is the question left hanging in the air?

Autumn wrote:

tigger wrote:

Autumn wrote:

tanszi wrote:on that point i agree Autumn, i would also add to that to say that i wouldnt be happy to let anyone i had known less than a week to bathe my children, male or female. I also find it strange that it was almost like an instruction that the fathers bathed the children that week in Majorca, or perhaps thats my interpretation, in any event, holiday or not i would do what i usually did with the children. Not all children have a bath every evening do they, sometimes theyre so tired a wash of the hands and face is enough, im not talking young children who need nappies changed etc, so for me the whole children having a bath every evening is odd, or maybe im odd lol.

Yes tanszi I agree. David Payne appears to have been very much in charge and was making it clear to the Gaspars what was expected of them form the outset. I imagine it would have been an awkward situation for the Gaspars as they wouldn't want to come over as being mistrustful of the other men and looking like they were making a fuss about nothing if they objected.

Does anyone know if the fathers were bathing the children on the PDL holiday?

Well, it's interesting to note the subtext in the 'why didn't you come when I cried?' In the book, Kate says something like ; we couldn't think when she would have been crying, they'd not seen her cry at all, was it during bath time? - that means that neither of them would have been there at bath time.
So... (this is not a literal quote, but approx.)

Who was there is the question left hanging in the air?

An interesting point to pick up on. If neither Kate nor Gerry knew if Madeleine had been crying during bath time, then they weren't there.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id242.html

Dermot Murnaghan interview.


Dermot Murnaghan: "Was Madeleine upset the night before, about being left alone. Had she… had she had a moment and got out of bed and started crying and started looking for you?"

Kate McCann: I mean, I don't want to dwell on it too much, I mean, I don't know if you saw the documentary last night, so, I mean, I have talked about it, errm... Madeleine made a comment, errm… in passing, that, errm… 'Where were you when I cried?' Not just to mummy, by the way, just generally, errm… and it just seemed a bit odd. I mean, it was a very, kind of, passing remark and we just thought, 'Oh, she doesn't usually wake up' and, she woke up; that means that, you know, she must have fallen back asleep very quickly, errm... and then she moved on… you know, she moved on.

Gerry McCann: Anybody with young children will understand that children cry; they wake up at night. During that week there was one night, errr… and we can't give too much detail because it's part of the investigation file but there was one night where Madeleine came through and one of the other, errr… twins were crying, so, you know, and when she did mention to it… it to us and we asked her about it and she just dropped… she was completely fine and we thought, 'Was it when they were bathing, getting them, you know, first putting them down in that period when they're really tired. Of course, with hindsight, in the… in the context of what had happened; of Madeleine being abducted, it's put in a very different light and it's put in a very different light to us and, of course, we emphasised that to the police.

--------------------

Odd he says 'they' not 'we' or maybe it's a transcription error, or just a Gerryism. (he meant to say 'when they were being bathed', but then obviously they would have been there....if K and G were doing the bathing.)

'Oh, she doesn't usually wake up' and, she woke up; that means that, you know, she must have fallen back asleep very quickly, errm... and then she moved on… you know, she moved on.

Gerry McCann: Anybody with young children will understand that children cry; they wake up at night.'


So again, they merge the idea of Madeleine asking where they were when she cried with Madeleine awakening from sleep.

So did Madeleine wake up and cry (along with Sean) whilst her parents were absent? and was she in the bath at the time?

All this hesitation and obfuscation might lead some to believe that someone has been fiddling with the evidence

Wintabells wrote:'Oh, she doesn't usually wake up' and, she woke up; that means that, you know, she must have fallen back asleep very quickly, errm... and then she moved on… you know, she moved on.

Gerry McCann: Anybody with young children will understand that children cry; they wake up at night.'
So again, they merge the idea of Madeleine asking where they were when she cried with Madeleine awakening from sleep.

So did Madeleine wake up and cry (along with Sean) whilst her parents were absent? and was she in the bath at the time?

Yes but 99% of parents wouldn't go out the next night (or any others) and leave the children YET AGAIN!!!! disgusting parents!

Lillyofthevalley wrote:

Wintabells wrote:'Oh, she doesn't usually wake up' and, she woke up; that means that, you know, she must have fallen back asleep very quickly, errm... and then she moved on… you know, she moved on.

Gerry McCann: Anybody with young children will understand that children cry; they wake up at night.'
So again, they merge the idea of Madeleine asking where they were when she cried with Madeleine awakening from sleep.

So did Madeleine wake up and cry (along with Sean) whilst her parents were absent? and was she in the bath at the time?

Yes but 99% of parents wouldn't go out the next night (or any others) and leave the children YET AGAIN!!!! disgusting parents!

Was it when they were bathing, getting them, you know, first putting them down in that period when they're really tired

But were the children alone? Children cry when people are with them. Gerry's comment about her crying while they were bathing her is something the police should be thoroughly investigating. Presumably they listen to the interviews don't they so why are they not picking up on any this?.

The End Is Nigh wrote:All this hesitation and obfuscation might lead some to believe that someone has been fiddling with the evidence

or the shutters even...

But did Maddie actually make that statement at all on the Thursday morning ? I always thought it was a weird thing for them to go on about.

Oldartform wrote:But did Maddie actually make that statement at all on the Thursday morning ? I always thought it was a weird thing for them to go on about.

Kate McCann first revealed what Madeleine told her husband and herself, in a media interview that was shown on the 1st anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance. She said that she told the Portuguese police what Madeleine had told them. I found this rather strange because previously when they were asked about the reports of the children crying while they were out, the McCanns said the reports were untrue. Once their children were asleep they never woke up.

After Kate revealed what Madeleine told her, the British newspapers crucified both Kate and her husband, for leaving their children after Madeleine told them she and Sean cried for them and they never came. I don't have a link, but I'm sure that somewhere on the internet or "You Tube", the McCanns can be heard denying the reports of their children crying.

Also in a media interview, that was shown around the time of the 4th anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance, Kate spoke of the time Madeleine told them that she and Sean cried. She said "We looked at each other and wondered if Madeleine was talking about when they were in the bath, or was she talking about when Sean and Amalie woke up crying the evening before.

Kate never said that Sean and Amalie woke up crying while they were out, but because it was in the evening, they either woke up while they were out or while they were checking on them. Either way the McCanns lied when they said their children never woke up while they were asleep.

I don't have a link to that interview but I'm sure it will be somewhere on the internet or "You Tube".

I remember that, but didn`t they only say it after the lady upstairs had said she`d heard Maddie crying on the Tuesday night? and they didn`t realise that lady was out on the Wednesday night, so they actually made the story up for nothing. I think its best not to believe ANYTHING they say at all.

Oldartform wrote:I remember that, but didn`t they only say it after the lady upstairs had said she`d heard Maddie crying on the Tuesday night? and they didn`t realise that lady was out on the Wednesday night, so they actually made the story up for nothing. I think its best not to believe ANYTHING they say at all.

I'm with you Oldartform. If the McCanns said it was raining outside, I would have to physically check myself. If I'm to be really honest, I don't believe the story, about what Madeleine supposedly told them, on the morning of May the 3rd. It seems to much of a coincidence, that she should disappear the evening of the morning she told them she and Sean cried. If it was true why keep denying the reports of the children crying for 12 months, adding that their children never woke up once they were out?

No one can ever say their children won't wake up once they are asleep.

The McCanns checks were supposedly every 30 minutes. On the night Madeleine disappeared, they said they went to the Tapas Bar at 20:30hrs. Gerry said he checked the children at 21:05 and Kate said she checked at 22:00hrs, when she discovered Madeleine missing. If the McCanns were speaking the truth, the maths tell you that their checks were 55 minutes apart.

The McCanns said that others were checking Madeleine, Sean and Amalie, in between their checks, but there are conflicting stories. The mother of one of the Tapas group, said each couple only checked their own children. Even if others did check the McCanns children, one said they listened at the outside window and another said they went inside the apartment, but didn't go into the children's bedroom. If those people were speaking the truth and the McCanns were speaking the truth, the McCanns children were not checked for 55 minutes.

Autumn wrote:Buy our Tatty Bumpkin Cuddle Cat & ALL Gross Profits from the sale will go to the Madeleine McCann Fund



is this some relation to Cuddle Cat?

I find that cat really offensive and can't believe a woman claiming to have an 'ethical' website would do that. It is unreal!!

If I remember right, didnt Rachel oldfield Take one off the o'brien kids with her to her apt on 3rd may to bathe them or give them tea but there is nothing about the child being picked up and taken back to her own apt.

Velvet wrote:

margaret wrote:

Velvet wrote:
Hi Autumn, I completely agree it is odd behavior that he was discussing bathing children he never knew. What puzzles me more is why Katrina Gasper allowed it to happen, ESPECIALLY after she heard Dave and Gerrys conversation. For the safety of your children you wouldn't care, a simple 'No thank you I'll bath my own daughter,' would suffice.

Payne wasn't discussing a bathtime scenario in that infamous episode. And why would you blame Katrina Gaspar when she had her husband to watch over bathtime, nothing was going to happen whilst he was there?

I wasn't discussing the infamous scenario. YOU said in an earlier post, 'I hadn't realized that the Gaspars didn't know the Payne's at all until the Majorca holiday. So to me the fact that David Payne was discussing bathing the children is very unsettling to say the least.' I was simply agreeing that considering the Paynes didn't know the Gaspers it was odd behaviour to discuss bathing them.

Regarding Katrina Gasper, I thought (but was kindly told otherwise) that David Payne had bathed her little girl which I thought would be completely unacceptable if she felt uncomfortable around him. However when Kitti told me otherwise realised I had misunderstood what was written.

No l didn't say that. You're misunderstanding posts again.