The Majorca Holiday 2005

Velvet wrote:
Hi Autumn, I completely agree it is odd behavior that he was discussing bathing children he never knew. What puzzles me more is why Katrina Gasper allowed it to happen, ESPECIALLY after she heard Dave and Gerrys conversation. For the safety of your children you wouldn't care, a simple 'No thank you I'll bath my own daughter,' would suffice.

Payne wasn't discussing a bathtime scenario in that infamous episode. And why would you blame Katrina Gaspar when she had her husband to watch over bathtime, nothing was going to happen whilst he was there?

I think I'm right in saying that the McCanns didn't know Brian Kennedy until some months after Madeleine disappeared. That's the official story anyway.

So the men were to bathe the children eh? Was this to allow the mums some personal time? Doubt it or they would have done the dishes, made the meals, delivered breakfast in bed. None of that, just having access to nude vulnerable babies and toddlers. Sick.

pennylane wrote:

T4two wrote:

pennylane wrote:Contacting the police about her suspicion regarding Dr David Payne bathing the children, and his disgusting, sexually explicit conversation with Dr Gerry McCann regarding Madeleine, must have been daunting and very stressful indeed. It would not have been a step she took lightly against a fellow doctor.

God bless Katerina Gaspar, she is one brave lady!

Indeed! But, probably also feels partly responsible in a way, as in, "If only I'd said something then, all this might not have happened".

I'm sure you are right T4two.

Reporting someone as a paedophile is a very scary thing to do, and it ruins lives and careers and can be extremely difficult to prove. I mentioned some time ago that I had a situation where I suspected my room mate's ex-husband (a school teacher) of molesting their 8 year old daughter. The dad lived some ways off and taught at the school the little girl went to, hence she stayed with him on school nights, and us at the weekends... it was a temporary arrangement until the mum found a place nearer the school. As the weeks went by, I noticed some alarming behaviour and things said by the little girl that gave me cause for concern, but when I mentioned them to the mother, she told me I was absolutely insane and completely dismissed them. This floored me, and the thought of ruining everyone's life on a "suspicion," which even the mother didn't agree with, made me lose my nerve. The irony is the husband was a jazz musician at weekends and a bit of a lady's man, which is what broke the marriage up, and so the mother just couldn't see the possibility he was molesting their young daughter.

Now that I'm much older and wiser, I am convinced my concerns were valid!

Accusing someone of molesting a child is probably the easiest way of ruining an innocent person's life if you have got it wrong. One must be certain that one's suspicions are well founded. I can imagine that it's such a difficult situation to be in that the average intelligent person will wrestle with the question of should I say something or not, for a very long time. In Dr Gaspar's case she decided against saying anything at the time and IMO probably had good reasons for reaching that decision. Unfortunately the worst-case scenario has arisen. The child involved has disappeared and the parents are maintaining rather unconvincingly that it has been abducted. To make matters worse they are on holiday again with that same group of people. I can imagine that Dr Gaspar got the shock of her life when she heard about it. Under such circumstances it is not surprising that she decided to make a statement to the police concerning that incident. The husband's attitude is as kitti pointed out, rather typical; it should not be allowed to detract from the significance of what Dr Gaspar claims to have witnessed. IMO the Gaspars' statements which were volunteered to the police after the witnesses had learned of the alleged abduction raise most serious questions in this matter.

margaret wrote:

Velvet wrote:
Hi Autumn, I completely agree it is odd behavior that he was discussing bathing children he never knew. What puzzles me more is why Katrina Gasper allowed it to happen, ESPECIALLY after she heard Dave and Gerrys conversation. For the safety of your children you wouldn't care, a simple 'No thank you I'll bath my own daughter,' would suffice.

Payne wasn't discussing a bathtime scenario in that infamous episode. And why would you blame Katrina Gaspar when she had her husband to watch over bathtime, nothing was going to happen whilst he was there?

I wasn't discussing the infamous scenario. YOU said in an earlier post, 'I hadn't realized that the Gaspars didn't know the Payne's at all until the Majorca holiday. So to me the fact that David Payne was discussing bathing the children is very unsettling to say the least.' I was simply agreeing that considering the Paynes didn't know the Gaspers it was odd behaviour to discuss bathing them.

Regarding Katrina Gasper, I thought (but was kindly told otherwise) that David Payne had bathed her little girl which I thought would be completely unacceptable if she felt uncomfortable around him. However when Kitti told me otherwise realised I had misunderstood what was written.

T4two wrote:

pennylane wrote:

T4two wrote:

pennylane wrote:Contacting the police about her suspicion regarding Dr David Payne bathing the children, and his disgusting, sexually explicit conversation with Dr Gerry McCann regarding Madeleine, must have been daunting and very stressful indeed. It would not have been a step she took lightly against a fellow doctor.

God bless Katerina Gaspar, she is one brave lady!

Indeed! But, probably also feels partly responsible in a way, as in, "If only I'd said something then, all this might not have happened".

I'm sure you are right T4two.

Reporting someone as a paedophile is a very scary thing to do, and it ruins lives and careers and can be extremely difficult to prove. I mentioned some time ago that I had a situation where I suspected my room mate's ex-husband (a school teacher) of molesting their 8 year old daughter. The dad lived some ways off and taught at the school the little girl went to, hence she stayed with him on school nights, and us at the weekends... it was a temporary arrangement until the mum found a place nearer the school. As the weeks went by, I noticed some alarming behaviour and things said by the little girl that gave me cause for concern, but when I mentioned them to the mother, she told me I was absolutely insane and completely dismissed them. This floored me, and the thought of ruining everyone's life on a "suspicion," which even the mother didn't agree with, made me lose my nerve. The irony is the husband was a jazz musician at weekends and a bit of a lady's man, which is what broke the marriage up, and so the mother just couldn't see the possibility he was molesting their young daughter.

Now that I'm much older and wiser, I am convinced my concerns were valid!

Accusing someone of molesting a child is probably the easiest way of ruining an innocent person's life if you have got it wrong. One must be certain that one's suspicions are well founded. I can imagine that it's such a difficult situation to be in that the average intelligent person will wrestle with the question of should I say something or not, for a very long time. In Dr Gaspar's case she decided against saying anything at the time and IMO probably had good reasons for reaching that decision. Unfortunately the worst-case scenario has arisen. The child involved has disappeared and the parents are maintaining rather unconvincingly that it has been abducted. To make matters worse they are on holiday again with that same group of people. I can imagine that Dr Gaspar got the shock of her life when she heard about it. Under such circumstances it is not surprising that she decided to make a statement to the police concerning that incident. The husband's attitude is as kitti pointed out, rather typical; it should not be allowed to detract from the significance of what Dr Gaspar claims to have witnessed. IMO the Gaspars' statements which were volunteered to the police after the witnesses had learned of the alleged abduction raise most serious questions in this matter.

Katerina said in her statement ".... afterwards I have thought many times about the incident that I am about to describe."

I have often thought about what I witnessed too. I didn't like my friend's husband, but I saw him from time to time as we moved in similar circles, and we were courteous to each other. This is why I can absolutely relate to the position Katerina Gaspar was in. If my friend's daughter had suddenly been reported missing whilst in her father's care.... I would have had my worst fears confirmed, and gone to the police immediately. That's the sad (too late) truth of it all.

Not Born Yesterday wrote:I think I'm right in saying that the McCanns didn't know Brian Kennedy until some months after Madeleine disappeared. That's the official story anyway.

Yes, indeed, that is the official story. I don't believe it, because I can use a spoon.....

I apologise for not finding the right reference for this, however, no family friends should describe your toddler in these terms, for this reason I've also added John Corner's comment, which is even weirder. It just illustrates the curious viewpoint of these two men.

Re the Majorca group: there is such a thing as 'small group dynamics' where people tend to fall into line with the most dominant person. In PdL it was noticed by the waiters that there was competition for 'first place' between GM and DP .
Mrs. Gaspar just made sure her child wasn't unsupervised, which is what I'd have done, certainly if I only knew one of the couples and had not had any negative experience with them.
I can just see DP (as the man who arranged the holiday in any case and receiving them as newcomers to the group), telling them the 'rules' . I know people just like that in fact as I'm sure many of our members here do.

Dr David Payne reply: "Mm, err Madeleine’s err a very striking err beautiful child, I’d almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she’d got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry’s, you know pride and joy. They’d had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she’d got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.”

***
“So beautiful, astonishingly bright, and I’d have to say very charismatic. She would shine out of a crowd,” family friend Jon Corner says of the child. “So—God forgive me—maybe that’s part of the problem. That special quality. Some bastard picked up on that.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/02/mccanns200802?currentPage=5

tigger wrote:I apologise for not finding the right reference for this, however, no family friends should describe your toddler in these terms, for this reason I've also added John Corner's comment, which is even weirder. It just illustrates the curious viewpoint of these two men.

Re the Majorca group: there is such a thing as 'small group dynamics' where people tend to fall into line with the most dominant person. In PdL it was noticed by the waiters that there was competition for 'first place' between GM and DP .
Mrs. Gaspar just made sure her child wasn't unsupervised, which is what I'd have done, certainly if I only knew one of the couples and had not had any negative experience with them.
I can just see DP (as the man who arranged the holiday in any case and receiving them as newcomers to the group), telling them the 'rules' . I know people just like that in fact as I'm sure many of our members here do.

Dr David Payne reply: "Mm, err Madeleine’s err a very striking err beautiful child, I’d almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she’d got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry’s, you know pride and joy. They’d had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she’d got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.”

***
“So beautiful, astonishingly bright, and I’d have to say very charismatic. She would shine out of a crowd,” family friend Jon Corner says of the child. “So—God forgive me—maybe that’s part of the problem. That special quality. Some bastard picked up on that.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/02/mccanns200802?currentPage=5

Quote
Some bastard picked up on that.”
They sure did.

Before I go to sleep, I've not found the birthday of the twins, but if they were in Majorca in 2005, the twins were already born, did they come on the holiday? They should have been no more than about 6 month old?

tigger wrote:Before I go to sleep, I've not found the birthday of the twins, but if they were in Majorca in 2005, the twins were already born, did they come on the holiday? They should have been no more than about 6 month old?

Can't recall the actual date, but they were born in February 2005, possibly the 3rd. There is a mention in a Gasper statement about a couple taking Madeleine out so that Kate and Gerry could spend time with the twins.

Tigger - 1st February 2005.

AnnaEsse wrote:

tigger wrote:Before I go to sleep, I've not found the birthday of the twins, but if they were in Majorca in 2005, the twins were already born, did they come on the holiday? They should have been no more than about 6 month old?

Can't recall the actual date, but they were born in February 2005, possibly the 3rd. There is a mention in a Gasper statement about a couple taking Madeleine out so that Kate and Gerry could spend time with the twins.

I seem to recall that it was the Paynes?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MADELEINE_PHOTOS.htm

Mallorca
http://www.ethicalkidz.co.uk/help-us-9-w.asp

Just trying to understand who really knew who. I picked this up from the statements.
It might not be quite accurate so feel free to correct if you want to.


Met at University of Leicester:
Russell, Gerry, Fiona and David, Matthew

Russell met David 1989, in same year at med school

Russell met Fiona 1993/94

Russell met mat in 1994. (Mats first year as a doctor)

Best man at wedding:
Russell was best man for Mat & Rachael 1999
Russell was best man for David & Fiona 2003

Shared a flat while at University:
Russell and Matthew
Jane used to visit because has been going out with Russell for 12 years.
Jane says Russell was living with David and Fiona?

Graduated Uni 1992 Matthew

Graduated Uni 1994 Fiona and David

Worked together in 2002 Leices Gen (& Glenfield?) Gerry and Matthew

Went to David & Fiona’s wedding 2003, Italy:
Jane, Russell, Kate, Gerry, Matthew, Rachael,

Shared apartment at wedding:
Gerry, Kate, Jane?, Russell?, Matthew, Rachael. Stuart and Tara (Gold)?

Holiday in Greece Sept 2006:
David , Fiona, Russell, Jane, Matthew, Rachael

Moved away from Leics in Feb 2004:
Matthew and Rachael

Went to Madeleines birthdays:
Russell and Jane 1st & 2nd birthday

Who met Kate and when:
Russell met since Madeleine was born through David and Fiona
Fiona worked with Kate round the time M was born 2003

Who socialised birthday parties etc:
Kate, Gerry, Russ, Jane, David, Fiona

Best man at wedding:
Matthew for Russell

Friends closest to the Mccanns:
David and Fiona

Russell and Jane due to go on holiday to Majorca in 2005 but did’nt.

Probably went to Majorca 2005:
David, Fiona, Gerry, Kate, Probably Stuart and Tara Gold took Rus and Janes place

Knows Diane Webster:
Russell & Jane know quite well.

Knows Gerry best:
David Payne

Moved away from Leicester:
Mat & Rachael Feb 2004, Kingston
Russ and Jane Jane 2007, Exeter

Worked with Kate:
Fiona in anaesthetics, around the time Madeleine was born 2003

Knew DW:
DW says she had seen photos of K & G on holiday with F & D whilst expecting Madeleine.
DW knew Jane and Russ best. She met K & G at F & D’s wedding

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic497.html

So there were 7 children in Majorca:

E. G. 18 months
L. P. 12 months
M.McC. 30 months
S+A McC. ? months
Boy (1) 12 months
Boy (2) 36 months

By my reckoning, only 3 of them were walking age (ie. more than babies). From what I remember, little kids are quite difficult to bath if they need to be constantly supported or unless you've got one of those special baby chairs with suckers that stick inside the bath and the child can then safely sit in it and splash around with toys and so on or unless you get in with the child yourself.

So I'm wondering which of these kids were being bathed together? I would have thought the McC children would all be bathed together, and same for Boy (1) and (2) so that leaves the two 'only' children (L.P and E.G), both of whom had a pregnant mum, which may have some bearing on why the men were the designated bathers. But why's it so important to bath these little children? how dirty can they be?? what is this obsession with cleanliness? it's not even healthy. (http://www.parenting.com/article/too-many-baths)

ok, rant over.

[quote="pamalam"]http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MADELEINE_PHOTOS.htm

Mallorca
http://www.ethicalkidz.co.uk/help-us-9-w.asp





Wow, she looks really different.

[quote="Wintabells"]

pamalam wrote:http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MADELEINE_PHOTOS.htm

Mallorca
http://www.ethicalkidz.co.uk/help-us-9-w.asp





Wow, she looks really different.

I don't think that's Maddie but Madeline O'Brien from the film 'Gone baby Gone'?

[quote="ann_chovey"]

Wintabells wrote:

pamalam wrote:http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MADELEINE_PHOTOS.htm

Mallorca
http://www.ethicalkidz.co.uk/help-us-9-w.asp





Wow, she looks really different.

I don't think that's Maddie but Madeline O'Brien from the film 'Gone baby Gone'?

Yes, anne chovey.... you are right!

T4two wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

tigger wrote:Before I go to sleep, I've not found the birthday of the twins, but if they were in Majorca in 2005, the twins were already born, did they come on the holiday? They should have been no more than about 6 month old?

Can't recall the actual date, but they were born in February 2005, possibly the 3rd. There is a mention in a Gasper statement about a couple taking Madeleine out so that Kate and Gerry could spend time with the twins.

I seem to recall that it was the Paynes?

Yes, that was the Payne's, I'd forgotten that. Not a nice thought and why should it be necessary to 'have time with the twins?' without their sister?
It's not as if they could play with them or have conversations with 5 or 6 month old babies, who do a lot of sleeping still. It's a weird excuse imo. Having your older child with the twins, yes, play with Mummy and Daddy and your siblings. Isn't it striking how dissociated Maddie is from the twins in her photographs? As Dr. Roberts said, when they talked about the children it was 2 + 1, not three children. Had the twins been a year or so older and Maddie disruptive, perhaps. Even then I'd rather keep all three together to teach them to play together.
It doesn't wash for me and DP's description of Maddie is inappropriate.

[quote="pennylane"]

ann_chovey wrote:

Wintabells wrote:

pamalam wrote:http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MADELEINE_PHOTOS.htm

Mallorca
http://www.ethicalkidz.co.uk/help-us-9-w.asp





Wow, she looks really different.

I don't think that's Maddie but Madeline O'Brien from the film 'Gone baby Gone'?

Yes, anne chovey.... you are right!

Yet this photo appears on the ethicalkidz website, apparently run by someone who knew Madeleine! No wonder there is such confusion as to what she really looked like.

Confusion is good said Gerry. the two Maddies.

Crikey, that's uncanny.

[quote="Not Born Yesterday"]

pennylane wrote:

ann_chovey wrote:

Wintabells wrote:

pamalam wrote:http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MADELEINE_PHOTOS.htm

Mallorca
http://www.ethicalkidz.co.uk/help-us-9-w.asp





Wow, she looks really different.

I don't think that's Maddie but Madeline O'Brien from the film 'Gone baby Gone'?

Yes, anne chovey.... you are right!

Yet this photo appears on the ethicalkidz website, apparently run by someone who knew Madeleine! No wonder there is such confusion as to what she really looked like.

Looks like they're cashing in on the Maddie Connection. You would have thought they would have known that pic of the girl in the film is not Madeleine